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Load development without a chronograph... How many folks feel it is imperative to own a chronograph? How many hunters having been doing it without one for years? Just curious...Thanks  | ||
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Not imperative. Helpful. Lost Sheep | |||
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It depends on what you are doing and what your goals are. I have a friend who is ex-military. He spent 20 years in duty, and holds just about every marksman's badge there is. He buys two boxes of .300WSM ammo each year: Winchester Silvertips. He makes sure they are both of the same lot. He goes to the range, fires 6 rounds to confirm the scope, sight picture, etc. The next 34 rounds equate to 34 one-shot kills - mostly hogs. Should he care much about velocity? Nah, he couldn't care less. It's a WSM - same as the .300 WinMag (In his eyes). It's a killing machine and he's happy. Max distances where he shoots is about 225 yards. 100fps just isn't going to make a darn bit of difference to him, handloads or not. I, on the other hand, am an anal-retentive freak who gets off reading reloading manuals. I have a Hornady manual in the downstairs bathroom and a Speer #10 in the upstairs bathroom. I like to know if my rifle is mimicing published data (nope, it isn't) so I like to know velocities. I don't particularly care to hotrod any of my guns anymore, so I use the chrono to help establish velocity max for a specific load. For instance, I've seen load data out to 19 grains of 2400 powder with a 300gr. GC bullet. I wanted to achieve an average of 1250fps. I did it in 17.5gr. of 2400. By knowing the velocity I'm able to keep pressures just a bit lower than max. It's a tool. If all you do is reload a middle of the pack load, and you don't have pressure signs and the accuracy is good (and you aren't an anal retentive freak) then a Chrono isn't likely to be of any real use to you. Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
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You need a chronograph ... You don,t realize the big variables in powder , primers , twist , bullet brands , weight style and jacket or mono metal ....... You can load and shoot without it ...You can hunt the world over , But if you don,t chronograph your loads , factory or hand loads .. You won,t know fast your bullet is going ....... I find that tremendously important . some people don,t .... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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I appreciate your replies...  I've only been reloading for my 270 and 30-06 and very happy with the loads I've produced as both calibers shoot 3-shot subMOA 100yd groups consistently... I check 3 or 4 reloading manuals and pick my powder based on velocity and load density/efficiency. Then I start 5-7% from max load and work up in .3gr increments shooting 3 rounds each. I check for the usual signs of pressure, i.e., flattened primers, sticky bolt, and the brass itself. Whatever the book max is I like to be a grain or so below it, if my rifle doesn't show signs of pressure sooner. If it does I'll back off a grain or so from that. I don't run my loads or my rifles hard and I'm happy with that....The only thing I'm anal about is in getting superb accuracy with modest velocities!!! Also, I am anal about preparing my components and make certain that I do everything exactly the same when I run them through. I asked this question primarily because I want to be able to determine trajectory and have a drop chart for my loads, especially now that I will be reloading for many other rifles... I've never looked into ballistic software programs...is this what I need? Say I take my estimated muzzle velocity from the manuals and insert that number into the software and it'll give me a sight-in 100yd , then 150yds, 200yds, 250yds, etc... Just curious as to how others are doing it... And what is OLD SCHOOL style as I've heard some mention before...say 30-06 just sight-in 3" high at 100yds and you'll be good for a 200 yard zero...Hmmm...I ask myself how did he know that!!! What if I was running 130gr or 150gr or 180gr.??? I would think there are ways to get a pretty good idea WITHOUT using a chrono, huh? But if I was concerned with eeking-out everything for my loads in terms of velocity then I would definitely get one for that, especially for safety reasons... Then insert those numbers into a ballistics software to get my trajectories nailed down... How did you all do it in the old days? Could someone take me to school on this? Thanks! | |||
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Just got a CED chronograph today from Dillon's. Appears to be a quality unit and goes together easily. With tripod and carrying case, just over $300.00. Looking forward to developing some loads for 300 Jarrett and 375 H&H. Let u know how it does. | |||
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Late Bloomer, I bought a chronograph 10 years ago, and it remains on the shelf unused. I am only interested in one thing, and that is accuracy. In my previous life, I was a scientist, and at that time I would have been interested in everything associated with accuracy, especially ES and group size, along with velocity. I'm 75 now, and uninterested in all of the minutiae. Now, it's like, what would I do knowing everything associated with group shooting, when all I care about is group size? The one valuable thing using a chronograph would be using the velocity info to plot bullet drop at longer distances. And, if I lived back home in Pennsylvania shooting groundhogs at long range, I could use the velocity data. But, the longest shot I get now it 125 yards at a Deer. Do I really need to know velocity and extreme spread of the bullet I just shot a Deer with at 125 yards? I don't. I know it makes for good discussions here on AR. And, I learn a lot for others who use a chronograph posting their data on a chambering that I have, with a Powder such as the new RL-17. There is much to be learned by using a chronograph I know. But, at my point in the life cycle, I'll leave that to others. Good luck deciding, Don | |||
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Many years ago I loaded to the books then headed to the country and set up targets at several ranges and shot for effect. Sometimes I found that the load did nothing close to what the book said and sometimes it was close but no cigar. I purchased one of the cheap Chrony models and started testing out some of those afore mentioned loads. What I found was that just because your using all of the same components from the manual in your loads and shooting them through the same length barrel, this did not always add up to even close to the same velocity in some cases. Or in others, the velocity was way above where it should have been in respect to the load being tested. Granted there are things which have to be kept to some sort of norm such as the distance at which you set the instrument in front of the muzzle, the area in which you actually shoot across the screen, and if possible the amount or intensity of light. I use mine to check for pressure spikes in my loads when working up as well as to keep the velocity in check for the particular load I am working on. Once I hit the desired criteria for a particular load, I will test it several more times using the chrono and keeping records of the temp, RH, pressure and such. This also effects the way the load will perform to some extent and adding it all together helps to compare the results at a later date. Once I finalize a load, it will generally be the most stable across the broadest of these variables. Then I work on the drops and set the rifle up for what ever ranges I intend to shoot. Out to 200yds, a chrono is simply a tool to develop loads with and aid in setting your final velocity and watch for pressure issues. From 200 to anywhere out around 1K or so, the chrono is a valuable tool to help develop accurate drop charts and help to establish the correct BC for the bullet your using in the conditions your using it in. Just because you look in a book for a particular bullet and it says the BC is .345, do not figure on that being the case in your locality or the conditions in which you use it. It might be higher or lower by a little or a lot. Again out to 200yds your probably never going to see the difference, but stretch it out to 500 or 1K and it will show up very quickly. Using the programs in conjunction with a simple drop test will get you in the ball park, however to confirm accurate data you will have to shoot a lot more bullets than if you were using the chrono, and knew the ball park velocity up front. Once you start to stretch things out in range, the little things that up close aren't apparent, start to show themselves rather quickly. That high extreme spreads and standard deviation between loads will result in groups spreading out like buck shot, where a finely tuned load will react to scope adjustments repeatably and will consistently hit where your aiming and not somewhere in the ball park. Do you need a chron to load accurate bullets to hunt with, no, nor do you need one to shoot tight groups in a BR competition, but they do produce a lot of useful information for those who choose to use it. Mike / Tx | |||
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The frist chronograph I used used paper with wire in it to measure speed. No sky screens back then. After using one the first thing I do now with new loads in run them run the crony and see what vel they are. Gives one a lot of info. I reloaded for years with out one put don't delvelop loads any more with out one. They are a great tool and help other wise one is just guessing. | |||
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 Me, me!  I worked up a load with molycoated Barnes X bullets using my Oehler chronograph. Then I printed out the ballistics chart generated by my bullets in my rifle and taped it to the stock. Like DMB said, it's not really needed for close shots in deep woods or, I suppose, if your cartridge shoots laser flat out to infinity. But Namibia offered very long shooting as the norm; something I had never done before. My PH ranged every target and I consulted my chart. Result: 14 dead critters. The upshot? If handloading ammo is your hobby, you would benefit from using a chronograph. If you just pack new components in that used brass case, not so much. | |||
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Well...I know of at least 22. ?? | |||
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i have a chrono - somewhere - i think i used it a few times to find out how fast some loads were, once i knew that i put it on a shelf - hasn't been off since | |||
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Hey L-B, Nice question to stir-up  the natives during the off-season. Reading Primers is a tricky Method, because it can be misleading and needs a good bit of experience to be meaningful. Sticky Bolt Lift also varies due to firearm design characteristics, and how well Lubed a person keeps his Bolt Lugs. Between those two, Bolt lift is a better indicator than attempting to Read Primers. But it only becomes noticable after a person has gone beyond where he should be. It is better to use a Method which allows you to see you are approaching a Safe MAX. In some situations, Starting Loads are too much for a specific firearm. So a person needs ro be watching the Pressure Indicators from the First Test Load. I recently did not do that with a "new" rifle and discovered after I got home that I was at a Safe MAX with my "old" Starting Loads. I'd gotten a new Manual and was flipping through it and got to the same cartridge I'd been shooting. Looked at the Loads and it caught my attention that what they "now" had listed as MAX used to be Starting Loads. They mentioned in a Sidebar that the reason for the reduction was because the "latest" versions of that rifle had a Faster Twist. Huuummm. Got out the Micrometer and sure enough, the PRE indicated they were correct. I never should have shot the Second Shot without checking the PRE on the First Shot. The only way to have an accurate Drop Chart is to shoot your most accurate Load at the various distances you desire to take a shot. The Math Model Trajectories found in all the External Ballistic Software, from any developer, can not account for the Variances in your final Load, the Bore Condition and your shooting technique. However, they are close enough to get you onto the paper. The good news is you can do the exact same thing with the External Ballistic Charts in the backs of your Manuals. I have one older software program that I nearly wore-out a computer messing with. They can be a lot of entertainment, but they are "not always" accurate and can vary from cartridge to cartridge. I can think of one particular cartridge where the computer software I have nearly nailed the Predicted Velocity(software guess) to the exact Average FPS I was getting. Had I based my comments on that one Cartridge in that specific barrel, and knew nothing about software, I'd be singing the praises of that Program. However, change to a different Cartridge or different rifle with the same cartridge and the results are a good bit different. You can "insert that number" into the Charts at the back of the Manuals and do just as well. In fact, try doing it with the Estimated Velocity 150fps Higher and Lower(300fps difference) and notice how little the Estimated Trajectory changes.
 Be careful about them thar "OLD SCHOOL" comments Pilgrim!   The nice thing(about the ONLY nice thing) about "OLD" is having seen a lot and tried a lot. Some things work and some only fool the user into thinking they work. For example, I used to use a Chronograph a good bit for about 20 years. Really thought I was doing something. I was "beaming" when I mentioned to one of my Elderly Mentors about having access to a Chronograph. Told him I knew the exact velocity of my Loads in a rifle he had made for me. Figured that would REALLY impress him. Then he said, "I'll guess at the Velocity and you tell me if I'm within 100-200fps." So, I got ready and he opened a couple of Manuals. His guess was off by maybe 80fps, just under 100fps. Fortunately I stopped and thought before I slowly mentioned his "Guess" was off. And he replied, "So what?" So, the Point-of-Impact will be different?!?!?! And his astute, wise "OLD SCHOOL" reply, "You have to check the actual Drop Rate by shooting at different distances, so how much difference do you think it makes?" And the answer to that "OLD SCHOOL" question is - the difference in Trajectory between knowing the Actual Velocity and a Guesstimated Velocity don't mean spit, or it isn't much at all for our sophisticated friends. Nice catch. That provides the same basis for many bitter disagreements you will see on the Board. People simply providing info for something different than what the other person is actually asking about. Yes, the very best ways of all time. I might have occasionally mentioned the good old (OLD SCHOOL) never fail, highly repeatable, easy to learn, extremely accurate, inexpensive, CHE & PRE are the only things which provide "Accurate and Calibrated" Pressure Indicators. And of course you can normally Guesstimate the Velocity from the Manuals as close as need be. Since the Chronograph tells you nothing at all except Velocity, do not be PT Barnumed into thinking it tells you anything about Pressure, because it does not. Many folks have been fooled into thinking it does, but there are simply too many variables for that to be valid. If they work with enough firearms chambered for the same Cartridge using the same Load, they will eventually realize the error in their thinking. Always fun to re-discover what has happened before. And the economy could use the stimulus. But, from the "OLD SCHOOL" point of view, both are pretty much a waste of money. That is how it was done in the "OLD DAYS" and it still works better than anything created during the past 100 years or so. ----- By the way, my dislike of Chronographs is primarily based on how much they mis-lead people into thinking they know something about "Pressure" by looking at Velocity, when in reality that is simply not true. Best of luck to you L-B. | |||
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I HAVE FOUND THE CHRONOGRAPH VERY USEFUL. RECENTLY WHILE WORKING UP LOADS FOR MY 375 H&H, THE LOADS I WAS TESTING WERE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BOOK VELOCITIES. THE PROBLEM WAS MY ELECTRONIC POWDER SCALE (PROBLEM RESOLVED AFTER READING THE MANUAL). I WOULD NEVER KNOWN HAD I NOT BEEN USING A CHRONOGRAPH. | |||
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Like the first reply said, not imperitive but helpful. It just takes some of the mystery away, especially when things aren't going as planned. Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready Theodore Roosevelt | |||
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to reload, if you have loading books, its not required. find the most accurate groups for your rifle, and go to it. However, if you want to do load developement, and TEST for anything other than pressure and groups size at one range, its pretty much required. I'll go this way .. to reload, nah, you don't need one. TO SERIOUSLY perform load developement and evaulation, its required and, for 50 bucks, its the same as the current street price for 1000K primers .. or 2# of powder .. you'd have to be prettty short sighted to NOT get one opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I would buy a chrony loooooong before I'd buy any sort of software. If you know, more or less, exactly how fast your bullet is going, any respectable load book will chart you out a drop chart. BUT with all the variable involved, it is danged near impossible to guessimate YOUR velocity from the book. A chrony will open all sorts of doors for you that would take a small thesis to relate. But, as most everyone who has shot at distance will tell you, the only way you can tell what your rifle will do at a certain distance is to shoot it at that distance. | |||
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Wow...Thanks for ALL the responses, I appreciate it Now I have a better idea of the tool and why one may consider using it! I wasn't trying to stir the pot...but trying to grasp a better take on things as I hadn't really looked into one before! I feel the chrony is worth the price as it gives one alot of info in load development, however the public range I frequent make it a PIA to set-up...The ground is terribly uneven and is much sloped where I would need to set-up my chrony...Big PIA and that's one of the MAIN reasons why most people here don't use one either I would imagine... In the rare instances I do see someone who takes the time and patience to set one up correctly...I definitely applaud his efforts! Stillbeeman- That's the way I've been doing it thus far by shooting it at various distances. My local range I sight-in at 100yds, then shoot at a 235yd gong, 350yd gong, and a 440yd gong...So that recommendation has worked for me very well. My son and I been hunting for 2.5yrs now here in the islands and last year Namibia PG hunt. We've bagged 26 animals and all one-shot kills, shots ranged from 134yds to 275yds...all bullets placed right where we aimed... I think I'll just stay with what we're doing and keep PRACTICING with our rifle's various loads and calibers to determine bullet drops and trajectories at known distances... I appreciate the reply...  | |||
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I've been using a chronograph since they were foil screens. I like KNOWING what my ammo does & not guessing. One thing a chrono has taught me is that no two guns are the same, even if the same manuf. I also find it helpful when working a new load up. It allows me to compare w/ published data & useful when changing out components to see teh affects on vel. which is often an affect on pressures. I also load fro several wildcats where data limited or none existant. I would have no idea where I should be going or have been. Would I reload w/o one, sure, but I enjoy the benefits of using one. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Accuracy: that's what matters to me. I reloaded for 40 years before I bought a Chronograph, and then only because I started using surplus powders in wildcats. If it shoots well, and does the job your after, you don't need one, unless your curoious as hell. "An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a slave", Ceasar | |||
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It's kinda like having sex without a woman. One gets a fine feeling and everything comes out ok, but you don't get the feedback about just how good you really are! | |||
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roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I started using a chronograph back when Ken Oehler's offering was a model 33. Then graduated to a 35P. To reload and shoot accurate ammunition you do not need a chrnograph, but it helps. To determine ballistic advantages once again not necessary, but it helps. To understand what you and your rifle are doing... it helps. So much depends upon your needs and your wants... hope it helps!  Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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Yes, this explains it better than I ever could have... Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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Hey folks just checked back and didn't think it was still going on...Thanks a bunch for your opinions! Right on! | |||
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This pretty much sums it up for me based on my PM's and hunter's I've been just talking to recently! IMHO you've said it pretty well indeed! Its up to a hunter/shooter's neeeds or requirements! Thank you! | |||
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If you want to develope maximun loads using a chronograph is the only safe way. I don't chronograph very often but with guns and loads I am new to, it will answer questions about pressures, consistency etc. quickly and with little guess work. A chronograph isn't necessary for safe loading and shooting, but it adds to my enjoyment. | |||
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Wow, How did all of those old timers reload before chronographs come along? It seems now, it is IMPOSSIBE to reload without a chronograph for some folks. I must have missed something in the last 61 years of reloading??? | |||
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Hey Rolltop, By golly, it sounds as if you are speaking with an abundance of First-Hand Experience!!!  | |||
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Do you need a progresive press to reload? NO Are they helpful in certain situations? YES Do you need a chronograph to reload? NO Are they helpful in certain situations? YES Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I shot for twenty years without a Chronograph. I had no problem shooting animals all over the world with loads developed without one. My kids gave me a cheap Beta Model Chrony one year for Christmas and it opened my eyes as to factory loads and my reloads. I could tell after many shots where the bullet was going without the Chrony, but with it I got where I wanted to go with the load far quicker. I wore out that Beta Model and a Gamma Model, then was lucky enough to buy an Oehler 35-P Model that had been used very little from a widows surplus equipment sale. With the Oehler I am completely comfortable with the speeds reading I get, whereas before on some bright sunny days with slanted rays I got some funny stuff from the Chronys. I have been using the Oehler for some years now and consider it an old friend as do about 20 of my Elk hunting buddies. While it does not give you information on pressure, after much use, it is not hard to figure out. The chronograph is just another tool to help the shooter, particularly the reloader, to better practice his or her hobby. While not necessary, it is certainly a great deal of help to the shooter. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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Thanks everyone for contributing I appreciate you sharing your thoughts! Right on... | |||
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No sir, only you are saying its required ... reloading can be done veru easily.. in fact, i have done it with "found" parts, black powder, and a mallet .. didn't even need factory bullets, shelholder, powder, dies, or even load data ... but to KNOW how fast teh bullet is going, without a doubt, to actually KNOW it (anything else is a GUESS) mone must have a chronograph. Now, is KNOWING how fast its going important to you? then you need a chrono .. oh, i guess you could buy a super high speed camera and a marked section of color coded tape... which IS funcitoning a chrony at that point. In other words, its work the investment to KNOW a thing ... I, myself, don't gamble and if i can KNOW a thing, I know it. And, for 50 bucks, who, seriously, wouldn't bother to try? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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If you use starting loads and work up carefully, you can safely handload without a chronograph by just using reloading manuals. If your components match what was used in the test load, your pressure and velocity may even be close to what's printed. Just don't bet the farm on it. Every barrel has slightly different internal dimensions, tight and loose spots (factory barrels), variations in rifling, and will develop different pressures. Some barrels are just faster than others. Some "starting loads" may actually be maximum in some firearms. Even though you can handload without a chronograph, you will be guessing about everything. Trajectory calculators and tables are meaningless. You must actually shoot at various ranges to know your firearm's trajectory. With a chronograph, you will know if your handloads exceed the velocity of factory loaded ammo, a good sign that your loads are too hot. If a chronograph fits in your budget, by all means, get one. There is no substitute for knowing. | |||
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Thanks Sam I appreciate you taking the time to share! | |||
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My feelings are like most of the lads above. It's not necessary but informative. When I was one of the first guys in my hunting group to get one, everyone would want to shoot their factory/reloads through it to find out the velocity. After a while I would tell them beforehand that they would be disappointed in the velocities as they usually ran about 200 fps slower than the "book". Most guys, that are hunters, are not going to shoot groups at 50 yard increments out to 400-450 yards for the deer/elk rifles to figure out bullet drop. While that might be the best, due to all the variance factors, it seldom happens. What is informative to them is to find out the actual velocity for the round that they want to shoot and calculate out the drop chart that they are going to use. Most of the them will do some in the field test of that chart be it either printed or in memory but most will not. I find my Chrony to be invaluable for the types of long distance shooting that I do out here in the West. Speed can equal flatter trajectories and flatter trajectories lead to more hits at extended distances. | |||
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I've owned my Oehler 35 and 43 for more than 10 years. I've had lots of other shooters at the gun club wonder over to my bench and inquire exactly what all the equipment is for. I'm happy to explain and always offer to have them try their rifles. Not a single one ever took me up on the offer. I told the club officers I would be willing to offer my equipment for a 'chronograph day'...charge a buck a shot or a simple donation to benefit the club. It got dismissed out of hand. So, some people it seems, just don't give a damn to know bullet speed or the trends of their shot string. | |||
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And, apparantly, those that do already have their own chronographs. Lost Sheep | |||
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chronos are good. assuming you work up and don't exceed max load you can get much the same benefit by using a range where you can set targets at 100, 200, and 300 yards. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Exactly. They are of benefit. I'm just too lazy to set mine up. What I need is an assistant.. about 35 years old, long hair and of the female variety.. I was just stirring up some crap in my post above. | |||
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