I have been working up a load for my Remington 760 and had about settled on the Hornaday 180 grain flat base Interlock. Then I decided to try the same bullet but the boat tail version. As a rule most of the bullets I use are boat tails but this was the first time I ever put the same bullet only FB vrs BT to a test against each other.


With the FB bullets my average group of 5 shots were 1 1/2 inch. Plenty good from my 760 made the first year of production and old vintage Weaver 7 power scope.

However the boat tails put 4 out of 5 in 3/4 inch and I pulled the 5th shot.

Anyone else have any comparisons like this?

I check my run-out on all my loads and I have a hell of a time getting flat base bullets to run even close to boat tails on over all run out at the ogive.


I don't even buy them anymore because of that reason alone.

Just because it is the same internal inter-lok, it is not the same dimentions outside. The weight is forward in the FB. I shoot FB in every caliber I reload. Each bullet type has its' purpose, some can perform multiple tasks, but are pricey. I used 160gr Partitions in 7mmRM and 162gr cup and core, both BT. But w/ the Partitions at $42.00 per 50 now, I doubt I'll use them again. I picked up 3 boxes of 160gr Barnes XFB 160gr when they changed the name to XTP, $17.00 per box, and 3 boxes of 140gr XFB also $17.00 per box of 50. Premium bullet for cup and core price, I'll take a 4" group at 400 yards over a 3" group at the price difference.

Rifles are individuals - shoot what your rifle likes.

Every rifle is different: - That said, my experience is that generally, flat base bullets will group better than boat-tails while boat-tails shoot flatter over long distances.

Also - don't expect a flat base and a boat-tail in the same weight and same brand to shoot the same.

An old target shooter friend told me the same thing that Jpat said in his post regarding the center of gravity. His opinion was that the farther forward the CG - the better the bullet would group.

quote:

Originally posted by armadillo:
Every rifle is different: - That said, my experience is that generally, flat base bullets will group better than boat-tails while boat-tails shoot flatter over long distances.

My experience also.

Sounds like you only shot one group with each bullet. That's not a real test. If you were to repeat it, the results might be diametric. Try 10 5shot groups with each bullet to get a real idea.
Personally, I rarely load BT bullets. I never shoot beyond 300 yards and in my target rifles, I've found that the 53gr .224 SMK(FB) shoots minutely tighter than the 52gr .224 SMK(BT). I like the idea of the longer bearing surface that the FB bullet gives you.

The drop between these two bullets (180gr 30 cal Hornady SP/BT) is not worth worrying about IMHO the difference is only 1.5" ~500yd with a 100 yd zero with a 2700 fps muzzle vel. This is according to the Hornady ballistic calculator. Wind drift is where the boat tails really come in.
The flat base is "usually" a bit more accurate at closer range and the BT at longer due to the better wind fighting shape. the performance on game is likely to be very similar.

Centre of mass of a FB is further back than that of a BT.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Sounds like you only shot one group with each bullet. That's not a real test. If you were to repeat it, the results might be diametric. Try 10 5shot groups with each bullet to get a real idea.
Personally, I rarely load BT bullets. I never shoot beyond 300 yards and in my target rifles, I've found that the 53gr .224 SMK(FB) shoots minutely tighter than the 52gr .224 SMK(BT). I like the idea of the longer bearing surface that the FB bullet gives you.

Actually I have shot many groups with the flat base bullets as those were what I was planning to use.

This last outing was with the best load I had come up with for the flat base bullets and I just loaded up 5 of the boat tails the same.

Without even tweaking the boat tails they shot half the size of the flat base bullets.
This rifle will not be used for long shots so the BT bullets have no ballistic advantage but if the next batch of them I load shoots this well I will use them as they cost no more than the flat base.

That said as we all know every rifle likes something different and I hope I get the same results next time I take it out.

I'll always take a flat base over a boat tail... and I'll always pick an SMP style tip over a Spire Point...

If the distance is under 250 yds, I'll pick a RN over a Spire Point...

I'll also always go with slower and high sectional density over lighter Bullet Weight and high velocity...

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
... With the FB bullets my average group of 5 shots were 1 1/2 inch. ... However the boat tails put 4 out of 5 in 3/4 inch and I pulled the 5th shot.

Anyone else have any comparisons like this?

Yes but just the opposite. I have a rifle that a flat base will out shoot a boat tail. Same weight and manuf. the flat base wins every time.

Have not been able to figure out why.

here's what i think.. generally FB bullets are NOT as consistent as BT bullets...

not because of bullet construction.. that's actually irrelevent..

but due to quality control

I've found some FB bullets to out shoot BT and the other way around too. Depends on the bullet and the caliber that I used them in. If only shooting short distances I don't see using BT bullets.

If you examined recovered BT bullets you will often find that they don't start into the bore straight. You can tell this by the unequal groove tails cut into the bullet examined right at the BT. They seem to do this more then FB bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
here's what i think.. generally FB bullets are NOT as consistent as BT bullets...

not because of bullet construction.. that's actually irrelevent..

but due to quality control

Say What???? You need to get off that bong and come up for air. Besides considering that all of the bench rest bullets I've ever seen were flat based, and although I'm not any sort of engineer, I would still surmise that a FB bullet would be much easier to make -ergo make precisely -- than a BT.

The base of a BT is a truncated cone. The base of of FB is, well, flat. I think the combustion gases exert, for lack of a better description, a more equal or constant force against a flat surface as opposed to the surface area of a truncated cone. Also, if the cone of the bullet base is not 100% square to the bore, the bullet can be "kicked" in whatever direction from the pressure as it exits the bore.

In some cases, a rifle will shoot a flat based bullet better than a boat tail of the same weight because the twist is margainal for the flat base and the boat tail, being longer, goes over the edge.

I once tested a .220 Swift which would keyhole boat tail bullets, but shot flat bases of the same weight just fine.

The point about boat tail bullets being easier to seat straight is a valid one, I believe.

Just an update on the load workup. Today's range session showed same results for the boat tail bullets. Once I sighted the rifle in with the load it printed a 3 shot group 3/4 inch.

Velocity was between 2718 and 2734 with average of 2722 for 8 shots. I know more shots are needed for a true average but this is close enough for me for the intent of this rifle and load.

Now if I could get my Rem 700 to shoot this well.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
here's what i think.. generally FB bullets are NOT as consistent as BT bullets...

not because of bullet construction.. that's actually irrelevent..

but due to quality control

Say What???? You need to get off that bong and come up for air. Besides considering that all of the bench rest bullets I've ever seen were flat based,

your limited? experience isn't the basis of this discussion

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

and although I'm not any sort of engineer, I would still surmise that a FB bullet would be much easier to make -ergo make precisely -- than a BT.

you insult without basis, sir. and, to your embarassment, without knowledge or experience

lapua d46 bullets, for the 1000 yard, are THE benchmark, and are, all of the match, boattailed
http://www.lapua.com/en/produc...ire-rifle-bullets/14


the lapua scanar, the hallmark for accuracy and match bullets, are all bt
http://www.lapua.com/en/produc...fire-rifle-bullets/8


berger bullets, match, are sold about 80% boat tailed
http://www.bergerbullets.com/P...arget%20Bullets.html

almost ALL nosler target and match bullets are BT,,, like nosler custom comp, bt, and ab,,,

all matchkings are BTs

and almost all hornady match bullets are BT...

in short, sir, i have no idea why you resorted to a dope smokig reference.. i have no experience in that arena.. but i do have, just a bit, of experience with a wide range of bullets...

yeah, 100 yard shooting might have some FB bullets in them. but that's certainly not all match grade bullets...

so, to resort to tit for tat... put that in your bong and toke it

I had a 243Win that I shot the smallest group I have ever shot. It would shoot unbelieveable small groups with cheap 100 grain Rem CL bullets but you shoot a 100 grain BT in it and you about need a yardstick to measure the group. On the other hand, shooting light for cal bullets it is fine with the 58 grain V-max boattails. IMO, you just can't make a "one size fits all" statement when talking about the likes and dislikes of different rifles, even in the same caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
IMO, you just can't make a "one size fits all" statement when talking about the likes and dislikes of different rifles, even in the same caliber.

I agree, and I believe that goes as a general statement for all rifles. Many, many competition benchrest rifles seem to prefer flat base bullets. Some prefer boat-tails, though not a majority that I've seen or read match reports about being fired in top-level short-range competition.

On the other hand sometimes individual field rifles greatly prefer BTs. I once had a Browning B-78 in 6m/m Rem which was an honest to God 1/2 MOA rifle just as it came from the factory ( fired from a bench) out to 300 yards, but ONLY with 85 gr. Sierra BTs. With everything else that rifle was a 1+ MOA gun.

So, right or wrong, I still believe only your rifle can finally tell you specifically which it prefers when using your loads at the distances and in the conditions where you shoot it.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
here's what i think.. generally FB bullets are NOT as consistent as BT bullets...

not because of bullet construction.. that's actually irrelevent..

but due to quality control

Say What???? You need to get off that bong and come up for air. Besides considering that all of the bench rest bullets I've ever seen were flat based,

your limited? experience isn't the basis of this discussion

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

and although I'm not any sort of engineer, I would still surmise that a FB bullet would be much easier to make -ergo make precisely -- than a BT.

you insult without basis, sir. and, to your embarassment, without knowledge or experience

lapua d46 bullets, for the 1000 yard, are THE benchmark, and are, all of the match, boattailed
http://www.lapua.com/en/produc...ire-rifle-bullets/14


the lapua scanar, the hallmark for accuracy and match bullets, are all bt
http://www.lapua.com/en/produc...fire-rifle-bullets/8


berger bullets, match, are sold about 80% boat tailed
http://www.bergerbullets.com/P...arget%20Bullets.html

almost ALL nosler target and match bullets are BT,,, like nosler custom comp, bt, and ab,,,

all matchkings are BTs

and almost all hornady match bullets are BT...

in short, sir, i have no idea why you resorted to a dope smokig reference.. i have no experience in that arena.. but i do have, just a bit, of experience with a wide range of bullets...

yeah, 100 yard shooting might have some FB bullets in them. but that's certainly not all match grade bullets...

so, to resort to tit for tat... put that in your bong and toke it

I must say your point and click talents are formidible. While you were googling up your response, did you find out which companies say: "okay boys, we're gonna make some flat based bullets. Tell the janitor to set up the machines and have the QC guys go to lunch."
I will admit that my meager knowledge and experience comes from the 100 and 200 yard competition where the flat based bullets are the norm. Do you think competitors that measure their targets in thousandths would shoot bullets that are poorly made?

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I must say your point and click talents are formidible.

i guess providing you with backup sources, other than opinion, is lost on you.. though i have no clue what "point and click talents" are..

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

While you were googling up your response,

oddly, google wasn't involved, i went to the same sites i've been buying bullets from for years, and provided you backup data ... yourself? you've provided nothing but insults. one way is adult, the other is just mouthing off

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

did you find out which companies say: "okay boys, we're gonna make some flat based bullets. Tell the janitor to set up the machines

interesting.. do you think such a thing happened? can you provide some backup for your strawman arguement? Since this is YOUR statement, that these things are run by janitors, please provide backup data showing this happened

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
and have the QC guys go to lunch."

okay.. so it's obvious that you've never worked in a production shop with differing QC standards for different products.. do you think the QC specs for a Caddy are the same as a chevy? same company... i reckon you feel chevy tells their QC folks to goto lunch, yeah? of course not, you are just spouting off

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I will admit that my meager knowledge and experience

you flatly stated ALL the bullets you've seen have been FB... i proved that there's quite a number of choices beyond that.. the mea culpa absurdity is just silly...

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

comes from the 100 and 200 yard competition where the flat based bullets are the norm

you said are the ONLY, not the norm.. please state which you "feel" it really is... do you think that there are NO BT bullets in the 100/200 yard game? no, you don't.. you overstated, but don't feel like saying "yeah, whoops"

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

. Do you think competitors that measure their targets in thousandths would shoot bullets that are poorly made?

no, and neither do you.. and these aren't the bullets in discussion, and you KNOW this.. the benchrest game isn't hunting... now, is it? do you think that guys with BR rifles usually HUNT with those bullets? of course not.. you attempted to create a situation where you could state, as with a "superior knowledge" in an incrediblely narrow arena... which has no bearing on the subject at hand, and spout off whatever you feel.

do YOU think that the run of the mill speer FB bullet is a nechrest bullet? of course you don't.. but you wanted to have a dig at something, and i took exception to it..

BR bullets aren't made by grabbing a couple thousand out of a 1,000,000 bullet run and labeling those "match" are they?

HECK NO.. they are made in special, high QC runs, regardless of base type...

which has NOTHING to do, what so ever, in hunting bullets...

do i think all bullets receive the same qc? no, and neither does anyone with a grain of sense...

Jeff,

I think the 100-200 yard BR game is dominated by flat base bullets. Most from custom makers.

BigB

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
Jeff,

I think the 100-200 yard BR game is dominated ....from custom makers.

BigB

with this revisement, i agree.. and it has nothing to do with the run of the mill fb or bt hunting bullets, does it?

custom makers doesn't equal speer, right?

that is to say, complaining about custom FB vs run of the mill BT doesn't align with reality, vs run of the mill FB, does it?

Did I start all of this??

Don,
not really... i took exception to being called a toker.. i shouldn't have bothered with the flaming replies about it.. not worth the wear on my fingertips
cheers

Jeffeosso,
This will be my final post on this but if you will go back to your first silly-assed post where you acrost the board tarred EVERY flat based bullet with your "lack of QC" remark, you'll find out why I took exception.
Basically, you don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't comparing one off bench bullets with mass produced hunting bullets. I merely stated that every bench rest bullet I'd seen was flat based. That was to illustrate that your silly-assed assessment was simply that, a silly-assed W.A.G. Do you think the Sierra 53gr FLAT BASED .224 Matchking bullet is held to a lesser standard than the Sierra 52gr BOAT TAILED .224 Matchking bullet? Sure you do.
I could go on with other examples, even maybe provide some point and click references, maybe even break your silly-assed post down, sentence by sentence, with my rebuttal to show how "mature" I am but as I said, I'm done.
As several have posted, rifles are very individualistic, however, with my limited knowledge and experience, when I start looking for a good, accurate load in one of my HUNTING rifles, I start with a flat based bullet. I do not compete at long distances nor do I shoot at game at long distances so any advantage of a boat tail are lost to me. And, as I posted in one of my earlier post, I feel the longer bearing surface of a flat based bullet is an advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
Did I start all of this??

Yes(kind of)!!! Some people just like to argue, fortunately I AM NOT ONE OF THEM . And it is the Off-Season, which tends to make some folks uncomfortable due to the Stress of not having all their Loads ready to go, no sweetepie, or thinking about obummer(the World's Biggest Economy Destroyer). America can only be Killed from within.
-----

I agree with the folks above who say, some rifles prefer Flat and some prefer BoatTail.

Best of luck to the argument.

quote:

I agree with the folks above who say, some rifles prefer Flat and some prefer BoatTail.

Arguing with your rifle is like arguing with your wife. Just give her what she likes because you will never win the argument.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Jeffeosso,
This will be my final post on this but if you will go back to your first silly-assed post where you acrost the board tarred EVERY flat based bullet with your "lack of QC" remark, you'll find out why I took exception.
Basically, you don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't comparing one off bench bullets with mass produced hunting bullets. I merely stated that every bench rest bullet I'd seen was flat based. That was to illustrate that your silly-assed assessment was simply that, a silly-assed W.A.G. Do you think the Sierra 53gr FLAT BASED .224 Matchking bullet is held to a lesser standard than the Sierra 52gr BOAT TAILED .224 Matchking bullet? Sure you do.
I could go on with other examples, even maybe provide some point and click references, maybe even break your silly-assed post down, sentence by sentence, with my rebuttal to show how "mature" I am but as I said, I'm done.
As several have posted, rifles are very individualistic, however, with my limited knowledge and experience, when I start looking for a good, accurate load in one of my HUNTING rifles, I start with a flat based bullet. I do not compete at long distances nor do I shoot at game at long distances so any advantage of a boat tail are lost to me. And, as I posted in one of my earlier post, I feel the longer bearing surface of a flat based bullet is an advantage.

Whatever, dude. You decided to make up on issue that I would be dumb enough to lump br bullets with mass produced old style bullets. I didn't. That argument is between your ears.

You could have asked rather than attack. Everything past that is rationalization.

quote:

or thinking about obummer(the World's Biggest Economy Destroyer). hilbily America can only be Killed from within.

I think GWB took care of that before he left.

Maybe we need more fundamentalist. You know, folks that believe the 2nd amend means what it sez. Folks that believe morals and ethics are not fluid to be parsed around. Say, for instance, by defining "is".

Maybe we need more fundamentalist. You know, folks that believe the 2nd amend means what it sez. Folks that believe morals and ethics are not fluid to be parsed around. Say, for instance, by defining "is".

Fundamentalists, I can agree with. Revisionists, I can't.

What exactly is Barney Frank proof of?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
What exactly is Barney Frank proof of?

The same party rltaylor votes for.

16 post and already on my ignore list. Makes him the 1st and only person on a dozen or more forums I frequent that has the honor.

You guys worship freedom and when I said something counter to your beliefs, I'm suddenly someone to be ignored. What happened to the 1st amendment? Or is it for registered republicans only?

quote:

Originally posted by rltaylor:
You guys worship freedom

this is an introductory statement, meant to "build your authority and audience approval" .. seen it

quote:

Originally posted by rltaylor:
and when I said something counter to your beliefs,

which president do YOU prefer? bush or obama.. one is pro-gun rights, and first amendment rights.. the other screams racist/hatemonger/clinger ..

quote:

Originally posted by rltaylor:


I'm suddenly someone to be ignored.

by one person that you offended.. fredom of speech means also freedom to listen/read who you want. you get to say whatever it is you like (to a point) but some folks may well ignore you long before you run out. they aint forced to listen to you.. get it?

quote:

Originally posted by rltaylor:

What happened to the 1st amendment?

sorry, do what? one guy decides to exercise HIS rights, and you get up in arms? if you don't uphold the rights of those you hate, then you don't believe in rights. So, as indignant as you are about being placed on joe's ignore list, for your 1st amendment rights, you need to stand up for his. But, sonny, that's actually not relevent. this aint about law, its about joe deciding to ignore you. your first amendment rights don't come into play

quote:

Originally posted by rltaylor:

Or is it for registered republicans only?

you really need to do a LITTLE research about this site, sir.

And, you need to learn the FIRST thing about being on a forum.. stay topical. what you are blathering on about, on GWB, is politics, not reloading.

Jeff, maybe you need to read the tread again because I wasn't the one that strayed from the topic. I was replying to Hotcore's reply.