Am I the only idiot out there doing this? I seem to have distant memories of seeing groups shrink after doing this, but what a pain in the hindquarters!

In your experience, is this worth the time and effort? I know it is a one-time thing, and isn't necessary with Norma brass, but does anyone else do this? I am about 80 cases into a total of 120, and the bloom has fallen completely off the rose!

I think it's another one of those things that people do when they have too much time on their hands.

quote:

Am I the only idiot out there doing this?

Maybe not the only one......but darn near.....IMO it offers nothing to hunting reloads.

I quit a long time ago.

I did it 30 years ago. I've long stopped fooling with it. I never really saw enough change to justify. Now if it was critical that my .5" rilfe would group .495" then maybe. If my hunting rifle can group .75" everytime I have other things to do than try and make it a .74" rifle.

Too many rifles too little time.

There are target shooting people who do flash hole reaming, it is hard to prove one way or another that it really makes a difference on target with a hand held weapon. Most target shooters I know buy good brass and “load them and shoot them”.

There is an article on Middleton Tompkins in the May 2010 Edition of Shooting Sports USA. http://bulletin.accurateshoote...shooting-sports-usa/ A quote from that article: “Nor does he worry about uniforming primer pockets and flash holes. “It may make a difference in benchrest shooting, but it darn sure doesn’t make a difference in our shooting, especially from 600 yards.””

Middleton also does not crimp his bullets.

A lot of reloading practices are advertizing induced behaviors.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I think it's another one of those things that people do when they have too much time on their hands.

Yep

Primer pocket uniforming? No

Flash hole de burr? Yes

I still do that as a way to 100% know I have a flash hole in new brass

Yes it's a pain in the ass as many of the steps of loading are but one and done

I however don't do this for
my auto pistol brass or loads for my AR-15

Would I bother for hunting ammo? Most of the time no.

But if the cartridge cases were not among the more consistent out there, and I was going to "prep" them anyway, I might, depending on what else was on my to do list and how much time and energy I had.

Would I do it for competition at the national level? Your damned rootin-tootin right I would! At that level the cumulative effects of doing EVERYTHING which improves ammo consistency is well worth it to me.

I can't say it makes national championships possible, but I can certainly say without a doubt that it doesn't prevent them from being attainable.

I do both, flash hole de-burring and primer pocket uniforming. It only takes a small amount of time and once it is done..it's done. Besides, I would rather be doing this than cutting the grass or taking out the garbage...and other menial tasks. Reloading calms the nerves and makes sanity a possibility.

If I was competition shooting, probably. For hunting, no way will I spend the time. PITA for sure. And without it, I can still make my hunting rifles shoot more than satisfactorily.

quote:

I still do that as a way to 100% know I have a flash hole in new brass

seeing light through them is good enough for me....

You might want to take a look over on 24 Hour campfire and do a search on flash hole reaming and uniforming primer pockets. There's some stuff by John barsness on the subject including his results using avery accurate varmint rifle IIRC and noting that after all that work, final groupss was not that much smaller, maybe .02" or what it .002". The conclusion that even for very accurate varmint rifle it wasn't worth the effort. After, there ain't any bench rests out in the boonies when you're hunting.
Paul B.

quote:

Am I the only idiot out there doing this? ...In your experience, is this worth the time and effort?

I do it and uniform primer pockets too but I don't kid myself that it actually matters. For factory rifles I suspect that stuff ranks along side polished brass for its effect on targets.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Am I the only idiot out there doing this? I seem to have distant memories of seeing groups shrink after doing this, but what a pain in the hindquarters!

In your experience, is this worth the time and effort? I know it is a one-time thing, and isn't necessary with Norma brass, but does anyone else do this? I am about 80 cases into a total of 120, and the bloom has fallen completely off the rose!

Try this. Get a Lee hand depriming punch and base. Use on a solid surface. Insert the punch into the case with out a primer. Whack the punch and smash the burrs flat. Go through all the cases like this. Then try your deburring tool. It will be much easier.
Wash the cases well to get all the loose chunks of brass out.

SR, where were you when I started the process, my friend? They are all done now, and cases are re-primed. I am about to start dropping powder and seating projectiles...

Thanks for the tip. I have a de-priming setup for removing crimped in primers, and have several hundred 7RM cases to prep. I will try it with those.

I ran tests 4 or 5 years ago. I changed the hole size from the original to .125" dia. in about 5 equal steps. Totally the same loading for all.If there was a change in velocity or point of impact it wasn't readily apparent.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I ran tests 4 or 5 years ago. I changed the hole size from the original to .125" dia. in about 5 equal steps. Totally the same loading for all.If there was a change in velocity or point of impact it wasn't readily apparent.

I hand deprime all my brass in large batches. No matter what I never have primers bouncing into the carpet. I do not get primer ash in any of my press rams. I never bend any decapping rods. It is a brainless job you can do watching TV. It is easy to mash the burrs flat and then deburr the cases in a large lot. I don't do it for accuracy. I do it to make the hand punch easier to use. It is only required one per case.
Knocking the burr flat takes about 90% of the hassle out.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ted thorn:
Primer pocket uniforming? No
/QUOTE]

I never had any thought of primer pocket uniforming until I tried to stuff some
Remington primers into some Winchester brass a couple of years ago.
The primers protruded well past the face of the case. All other brands fit fine by the way.
It could have brought on a whole new meaning to crush fit in the chamber.

I do both - de-bur the flash hole and uniform the primer pocket. As noted, doing the flash hole is a one time project. Uniforming the primer pocket only takes a few minutes. Sinclair sells a flash hole uniformer you stick in your electric drill. Fast & easy. I dunno if it helps with accuracy (probably not )but I do it to insure that my primers are seated uniformly. Just what I do.
Bear in Fairbanks

Just like to toss a thought or two more in here now....

First, primer pocket and flash-hole uniforming/deburring are not going to make huge differences, at least not most of the time, if ever.

BUT, most rifles and most riflemen are not accurate enough to determine the differences those procedures make anyway. In a top notch rifle, the difference may very well show, IF the rifle is shot by a very good shooter from a secure shooting position, and if everything else about his ammo is top-notch AND suits his particular rifle.

But with the great bulk of riflemen, the shooter's errors will still mask any improvement done in the primer area of the brass. So will less than almost perfect bullets, other than optimum charges of the "right" powder, seating depth variances, and a zillion other things.

To me, that pretty much makes it a waste of time for 95% or more of the rifles available out there, and more pointedly, for 98% or more of the riflemen.

Then when one tosses in the relatively low accuracy requirements of most hunting, even varmint hunting, one has to ask, "Why bother"?

Top level competition HAS top rifles and top shooters involved daily, so there the differences such detailed brass prep gives, begin to show. But most of the time, only there.

Of course if a person ejoys doing it and feels better about his ammo because he did it, that's a "whole 'nother ballgame" as they say. More power to ya then.

Waxing your car don't make it run or perform any better either...and takes much more time.....and everybody knows that, but it makes it look better and it makes you feel better

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Waxing your car don't make it run or perform any better either...and takes much more time.....and everybody knows that, but it makes it look better and it makes you feel better

And actually, having confidence in your ammo makes one shoot better, too. So whether it is or isn't a mechnically demonstable physical advantage, all prep work can help sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Waxing your car don't make it run or perform any better either...and takes much more time.....and everybody knows that, but it makes it look better and it makes you feel better

Peeing in a wet suit does no good either.....no one notices but it gives one a nice warm feeling.

Here is a link to a you tube video. This guy has won numerous competitions and says not to bother with the flash hole, but to uniform the pockets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...8bRU&feature=related

In the tests by one of the ammo companies they found that flash hole diamer was important ,but so was the hole length ! For ultimate target shooting of course. de-burr of course.

quote:

Peeing in a wet suit does no good either.....no one notices but it gives one a nice warm feeling.

It was always amusing to watch fastidious new divers squirm while trying to avoid the inevitable.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
In the tests by one of the ammo companies they found that flash hole diamer was important ,but so was the hole length ! For ultimate target shooting of course. de-burr of course.

I think that Palisano and Pendell of PPC found that both diameter of flash hole and length were important at their level of competition.

Some advancements come from the military and some come from play. Some are sort of like penicillin and vulcanization of rubber and require chance to help.

Once again someone(s) takes a minor facet of precision shooting and tries to make a doxology of it. This is but a very minor part of precision case prep. But some folks would have you believe it is the straight road to Jeruselem. But it is only a part of a much bigger package. If you do not embrace the entire package, you're spinning your wheels. And if you're shooting a stock hunting rifle, you're spinning your wheels. The folks espousing this sort of thing never mention that the people that can determine is this is or is not an advantage, are shooting rifles that are made one at a time by elves under a hollow log. Not Wally World specials. Along with the best components money can buy. Lastly, and most importantly, they have mega trigger time and dry firing time.

Reloading along with all aspects of case prep. is a JOY.........not to be confused with a necessary step in the reloading process. Just one more variable out of the way.....r in w.

quote:

Reloading along with all aspects of case prep. is a JOY.........

I reload to shoot more the less time it takes me the better it suits me.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Once again someone(s) takes a minor facet of precision shooting and tries to make a doxology of it. This is but a very minor part of precision case prep. But some folks would have you believe it is the straight road to Jeruselem. But it is only a part of a much bigger package. If you do not embrace the entire package, you're spinning your wheels. And if you're shooting a stock hunting rifle, you're spinning your wheels. The folks espousing this sort of thing never mention that the people that can determine is this is or is not an advantage, are shooting rifles that are made one at a time by elves under a hollow log. Not Wally World specials. Along with the best components money can buy. Lastly, and most importantly, they have mega trigger time and dry firing time.

What is the point of your comment?
Do you reload only to hear it go bang?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Once again someone(s) takes a minor facet of precision shooting and tries to make a doxology of it. This is but a very minor part of precision case prep. But some folks would have you believe it is the straight road to Jeruselem. But it is only a part of a much bigger package. If you do not embrace the entire package, you're spinning your wheels. And if you're shooting a stock hunting rifle, you're spinning your wheels. The folks espousing this sort of thing never mention that the people that can determine is this is or is not an advantage, are shooting rifles that are made one at a time by elves under a hollow log. Not Wally World specials. Along with the best components money can buy. Lastly, and most importantly, they have mega trigger time and dry firing time.

What is the point of your comment?
Do you reload only to hear it go bang?

Pretty much. And when my cartridges go bang, the bullets strike close together. A couple of state F class championships attest to that.
As I posted, if you want to spend a lot of time that would be better spent getting trigger time or dry firing in your case prep, for it to be meaningful, you need to embrace the entire, tedious precision case prep package. Practicing one facet isn't gonna change you from a spray and pray shooter to a Deadeye Dick. There are no short cuts to the winner's circle.
Pretty simple, huh.
If you want to try "stuff" or if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, go for it. But if you're one of us that reloads to shoot rathe than shoots to reload, then do it in a controlled manner so you can see if it helps you or not. And if it doesn't, drop it.

Primer pocket uniforming? Yes

Flash hole de burr? Yes

I however don't do this for
my auto pistol brass


Snake

I guess I should probably do some explaining... I am loading 300 WSM for a friend in another state, and I don't have the benefit of the rifle to work up a load with. So I am trying to in effect duplicate an already very accurate factory round. I just felt like de-burring flash holes might improve things a bit.

This isn't the way I would normally do it, but since I don't have access to the rifle, I am using reloading manuals and 30 years of handloading experience to try to come up with something acceptable. He only shoots ~100 yards when hunting, but if he gets six boxes of 2-3 MOA handloads, he will never shoot them... I am hoping for something significantly better than that.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Once again someone(s) takes a minor facet of precision shooting and tries to make a doxology of it. This is but a very minor part of precision case prep. But some folks would have you believe it is the straight road to Jeruselem. But it is only a part of a much bigger package. If you do not embrace the entire package, you're spinning your wheels. And if you're shooting a stock hunting rifle, you're spinning your wheels. The folks espousing this sort of thing never mention that the people that can determine is this is or is not an advantage, are shooting rifles that are made one at a time by elves under a hollow log. Not Wally World specials. Along with the best components money can buy. Lastly, and most importantly, they have mega trigger time and dry firing time.

What is the point of your comment?
Do you reload only to hear it go bang?[/QUOTE]

quote:

As I posted, if you want to spend a lot of time, that would be better spent getting trigger time or dry firing (than) in your case prep. For it to be meaningful, you need to embrace the entire, tedious precision case prep package. Practicing one facet isn't gonna change you from a spray and pray shooter to a Deadeye Dick. There are no short cuts to the winner's circle.

Pretty simple, huh?

IMHO, wasbeeman is exactly 100% on the money with his last quote, paraphrased in the next paragraph up.

One of the reasons I dread reading such articles in the gun press about "new" "tricks" of the "truly accurate" handloaders, is that they are so often written as if they were a substitute for the hard work of making really good ammunition and learning how to really shoot well. Not to mention that they often skip over the whole question of whether the rifle(s) involved are even built to successfully deliver top accuracy.

Top accuracy really IS the result of a whole system which includes shooter, rifle, ammo, organization, and a bunch of other stuff, none of it cheap or easy to do for the length of time required.

As wasbeeman said, if one isn't willing to buy into and follow the whole program, he simply is not going to consistently get top accuracy. Luck and cash will help part of the time, but not all of the time.

But, finally, as I said before, top accuracy is not required for hunting. Adequate accuracy is just exactly that...adequate. So, for hunting, don't sweat the small stuff. Spend your time putting rounds downrange from something other than a benchrest position, and in learnng the other facets of hunting...like how to find game, how to stalk it, how to track it after it is hit, how to dress it when it is dead, how to keep it from "souring" on the way home, and so on. Will make you a much better hunter than even a 1/2" reduction in group size.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Once again someone(s) takes a minor facet of precision shooting and tries to make a doxology of it. This is but a very minor part of precision case prep. But some folks would have you believe it is the straight road to Jeruselem. But it is only a part of a much bigger package. If you do not embrace the entire package, you're spinning your wheels. And if you're shooting a stock hunting rifle, you're spinning your wheels. The folks espousing this sort of thing never mention that the people that can determine is this is or is not an advantage, are shooting rifles that are made one at a time by elves under a hollow log. Not Wally World specials. Along with the best components money can buy. Lastly, and most importantly, they have mega trigger time and dry firing time.

What is the point of your comment?
Do you reload only to hear it go bang?

Pretty much. And when my cartridges go bang, the bullets strike close together. A couple of state F class championships attest to that.
As I posted, if you want to spend a lot of time that would be better spent getting trigger time or dry firing in your case prep, for it to be meaningful, you need to embrace the entire, tedious precision case prep package. Practicing one facet isn't gonna change you from a spray and pray shooter to a Deadeye Dick. There are no short cuts to the winner's circle.
Pretty simple, huh.
If you want to try "stuff" or if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, go for it. But if you're one of us that reloads to shoot rathe than shoots to reload, then do it in a controlled manner so you can see if it helps you or not. And if it doesn't, drop it.

So you do this shooting at night and during bad weather too? Why compare time spent loading to time spent shooting?
Spray and pray - sorry I only have one autoloader.
You know what I think of F class championships?
Not a thing, I do not know what F class is. So your dropping of that detail means nothing.
I can say that I have not been amazed by others shooting since about 1969 or so. I was at a club range when Schuyler Helbing and Sue Ann Sandusky were testing lots of Eley ammo for their small bore rifles. They were both shooting prone at 100 yards with .22 match rifles - metallic sights. There were a great many 1 inch groups for 10 shots on the target board. This was at a range with a lot of wind.
Schuyler's dad said they like to sort ammo there and practice just because of the windy conditions.

quote:

top accuracy is not required for hunting.

True. Did you ever notice that many of these posts get wrapped around the axle by the connection to hunting?
A lot of what is posted at this site is about bigger, better and more advanced - just for hitting a whitetail, elk or cape buffalo. They are all huge targets compared to the accuracy of the common hunting rifle.

I guess we're even then as I haven't the slightest idea who those people are that you were remarking on. Nor do I care.
I do agree that one needs to practice under adverse conditions however I rarely shoot at night and if the conditions are too bad, I don't shoot during the day. But I guess I'm lucky as I have other interest and obligations that I can turn to before I get wrapped up in cutting logs of 4350 into three parts. Or feeling I must have a scale that can measure a popcorn fart or have a few thousand dollars worth of thingies before I can make decent ammo.
Let me restate my position one more time: I reload so that I can shoot. I shoot for the enjoyment of it. Whether it's at targets or making a clean one shot kill on a game animal. When I pick up my empties, I'm not thinking, "oh boy, oh boy, I get to do some reloading."
As far as getting wrapped up in hunting, I daresay that 90% or more of the folks that hang here are hunters so it's no surprise that most of the threads begin with or migrate to a hunting theme.
Anyone that really wants to get the real info about precision reloading would do better to go over to the Benchrest room. There he could get good info from folks that really know what they're talking about.

I certainly don’t know if it improves my groups, but it’s easy to do and every so often I come across a real chunk of brass that is removed by the process.

When hunting I want the best ammo I can get, it might not improve accuracy, nor reliability but it does improve my confidence.