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We do a lot loading, and we buy our brass in bulk, from different sources. Depending on caliber. And we follow a routine in preparation off these cases. 1. Run all cases through a sizing die; we find a few cases that have faulty necks, and cannot be used. Many cases have dents in them, hence sizing them clears this 2. Trim all cases to proper length, practicall all of them need something taken off. 3. Uniform all primer pockets. All pckets need this, some require quite a bit of brass to be taken off. 4. Uniform thee flash holes - again, some have very large burrs stuck inside, and might even misfire if not done. 5. We weigh all cases, and segregate them into seperate weights, depending on caliber and purpose of use. Best cases are from Lapua. Worst cases are from Bertram - in fact, these are so bad we refuse to use them any more. | |||
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NO doubt all that procedure improves the uniformity of your ammunition, Saeed. But I honestly don't think it is all needed for successful hunting ammo. Take primer pocket uniforming... How many million rounds of factory hunting ammo would one suspect are made and sold by factories every year? They use bulk brass, and I seriously do not believe they "uniform" the primer pockets on all those rounds before loading them. Ditto flash holes. Still their current factory ammo is plenty accurate and reliable for hunting. I commend you on your established and followed procedure. It will produce better ammo than if you didn't do all those things. But enough better to make the difference between suitable or unsuitable for hunting? My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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 AC! It's called the joy of arriving at the sophisticated solution wither you need it or not.  roger  Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Agreed Roger. And there is nothing wrong wth that at all.  Just not an important 'need' for hunting ammo.  My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I too have a sickness! Thank you for sharing your process as it makes me feel less like a neurotic outcast. Haha! I do the exact same as Saeed for all rifle cases. For pistols, I skip the flash hole deburring and weight sorting. | |||
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Damn Skippy, I never thought of my reloading as a "sophisticated solution"; I merely thought of it as a means to shoot more. And it seems that the more I shoot, the better my ammo is. Maybe I need to get out more.......? Aim for the exit hole | |||
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 Great one, wasbeeman! Humour and real, valuable, deep insight coupled together in one line.. Love it!  My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Alberta There is another general rule that improves reloading. The better the benchrest you test with the better your reloads are. I bought a Hart rest about 25 years ago. At that one instant in time, my skill from the bench, the quality of my hand loads and the accuracy & quality of my rifles all improved. I also wasted few components shooting and reshooting test loads. I had fewer flyers. Known accurate rifles all began shooting near the same limit. I eventually figured out what that limit was.... However I do no regard all of this as a sophisticated solution. It seems pretty simple to me. I hate burrs. | |||
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I do it for fun... Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Me too, Mike. I don't know whether it is an illness brought on by years of competitive BR shooting, or a pleasure indulged in because I love reloading and handloading both, replete with all their steps toward unreachable perfection. Or maybe it's just something I got in the habit of when I first really started getting interested in accuracy as a re-loader and believed every "accuracy tip" I read, anywhere. The only reason I keep repeating the "No, not really worth much effort for hunting ammo" response is the original question... "In your experience, is this worth the time and effort?" He didn't ask if it improved accuracy even a tiny bit, or was fun, or any of those things. In hunting ammo it probably isn't worth the time and effort for most folks...except for the added confidence it MAY bring to some. That's always worth having, of course. If it turns one's crank, he should do it. If not, don't sweat it. ( A general statement, not aimed at you Mike.) | |||
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I've posted before that you can't buy your way into the winner's circle. Buying a Ranger bass boat doesn't make you Bill Dance; buying a one off bench gun doesn't make you Deadeye Dick. And that goes for all of the associated paraphenalia. People would be much better off learning how to use the equipment they have to it's potential instead of pining for just one more thingie that will enable them on their once a month or every other monthly (unless it's too hot or cold) trip to the rifle range to put all of their shots in one hole. Over the years, I tried most everything (I've never deburred the inside of a flashhole however) As I added things to my overall efforts, once I was comfortable in doing whatever, I asked myself: "is this taking me where I want to go or is it just a waste of time that I could be using for better profit?" I am not one to be a monkey see, monkey do kinda guy, nor am I one to get wound up with "this is the way we've ALWAYS done it." To answer the original question, if you are loading for a box gun, uniforming the flash holes, nor deburring the inside of the flash hole, nor weighing cases nor neck turning is gonna help your accuracy nearly as much as trigger time and dry firing practice. Spend the time you would put in doing that stuff into practicing dry firing acrost your kitchen table and working on your bench technique and you'll be surprised how much better your ammo gets.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Yeah you made that point. Except I can test my loads with a 24X and 36X bench rest scopes. A few of my rifles have 2oz triggers. Can your match shooting match that for precision? But for some of us the process is fun also and no competition or hunting is required.... and besides I cannot shoot at 7pm to 9 pm when I do most of my loading. | |||
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Or when it's raining, snowing, or 105 in the shade....or nothing is in season ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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 Or you already have too much fish taking up space in the freezer.  roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Anyone who knows me....knows better ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I do my cases much as Saeed posted, 1. Run all cases through a sizing die; we find a few cases that have faulty necks, and cannot be used. Many cases have dents in them, hence sizing them clears this 2. Trim all cases to proper length, practical all of them need something taken off. A) This makes sure the case is the right length and the case mouth is square. B) Debure the outside with a standard tool and chamfer the inside with a VLD style deburing tool. 3. Uniform all primer pockets. All pockets need this, some require quite a bit of brass to be taken off. A) This makes sure the firing pin hits each primer the same. This will make your ignition more uniform. 4. Uniform thee flash holes - again, some have very large burrs stuck inside, and might even misfire if not done. A) The more uniform your ammo is the better. 5. We weigh all cases, and segregate them into separate weights, depending on caliber and purpose of use. Different weight equals different capacity. The less variables the better. Now lets talk about uniforming your bullet ogive and squaring the nose. Wasbeeman, I am in your camp. I use to run Hunter pistol and small bore rifle silowet matches. I use to hear people talking about this or that special ultra expensive brand of ammo that if they shot it would be worth one or two extra animals on their scorecard. I always said if you by a case of the cheap practice ammo and shoot it up in Practice you will improve your score more than shooting the ultra expensive ammo. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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Can someone explain to me how full length resizing a piece of brass will take a dent out of it??? And, FWIW, try this: Trim your new brass to a uniform length and then fire it and measure it again. Damn Skippy, the shit ain't uniform anymore and has to be re-trimmed. Oh boy, oh boy, I get to spend some more shop time instead of being out shooting.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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 If the dent is in the neck??  Is that the right answer? rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Try Peter Pan ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I don't know. I bump my new brass over the resizing ball to make sure it's round but I don't F/L resize it. From the post, I thought they were talking about dents in the side of the case. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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 And you might be 100% correct. I was just  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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That's what makes this forum great. You get unassailable arguments from both extremes, and you get to make up your mind about which way you're going..... Personally, I'll ALWAYS deburr my rifle (hunting) flash holes on new brass, and I'll uniform primer pockets after each firing. The pile of fine brass shavings after uniforming 50 x fired cases being the motivation behind my conviction. I'll also measure all my cases after each firing and if necessary, trim to zero tolerance. Am I being anal? Hell, I hope so! But I'm a lousy shot and I need my ammo to cover for that! | |||
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Ah Rikki, anal or not, you shouldn't need to uniform your primer pocket more that once. Also, FWIW, it's a simple thing to check. Take say 30 pcs of new brass and trim to length and then uniform the primer pocket and de-burr the flash hole on 15 of them. Then load 'em up and shoot 'em. Two groups of 15 not 3 or 5. Make it a blind test or have someone else shoot the groups. One thing you want to do is sight in your rifle so it is hitting a couple of inches away from your point of aim so you won't bugger up the bullseye. Measure the groups and then decide. Neat huh. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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As stated above the reason that the flash hole needs to be lightly worked over is because of burrs on the flash hole opening. When burrs are present they will not allow for the uniform dispersal of the flash charge from the primer into the propellant. This is bad for accuracy because it can cause inconsistent ignition of the propellant charge. Not something that you really want to worry about---there are specific tools available to do this and it is very easy to do. | |||
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Hogwash.....I doubt seriously that anyone here can quantify the increase in accuracy by deburring and uniforming flash holes. The only value in these exercises is to improve the financial pockets of folks like Sinclair that makes the tools. If I was a dead serious benchrest competitor where thousandths of an inch can make you a winner or loser I'd do it without any proof of it value......but that's the only time I'd consider it.....and this is from a guy that has fired a helluva lot of rounds at prairie dogs for a darn long time..... As far as insuring that a flash hole actually exists.....a simple visual check is all that's needed. There's a lot of things a reloader can do that falls past the third standard deviation....Woods is an expert on these things....we call them thingys.....    /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Damn Vapo, I couldn't of said it better myself!  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Some of these things I just like messing with and some I don't. That's the real reason I do them. I am less anal than a lot of the folks I see here. When I buy new brass, I measure it to see if it falls between minimum and maximum lengths. I don't automatically trim all to uniform length. It is a waste of time in my opinion. I do debur and chamfer the case mouth after I hit it with the expander ball to make sure it is round. I also, for some really unknown reason, debur the flash hole. Don't know if I need to, but maybe it takes the place of any unnecessary trimming. Then I prime it up, load and shoot it. All of my loads in a decent rifle will shoot MOA or better from my hunting rifles. Some of my better barrelled ones shoot much better. I usually neck size after that for as long as I can before a shoulder bump is necessary. I check for length every third firing or so and usually they are still fine. The only one I trim up front is the 6.5-06AI since I use 270 brass. Just the way I do it. Not much fuss and the loads are more than acceptable. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Have I found any noticeable improvement in accuracy by doing what I do to my hunting brass? I suppose not. So where's the advantage, you ask. It's all about absolute confidence in my hunting loads. I reload (mostly) to hunt, and if something has to go wrong with my hunt because I didn't do everything possible to eliminate all possibility for error in my reloads, I think I may just have to kill myself. Makes me sleep better | |||
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I have a flash hole gage, made before the Internet, before the Internet it worked, the benefit? It had more than one purpose. Back to uniforming flash holes, one very disciplined reloader in Arkansas starts by uniforming the flash holes of his cases, if for no other reason if he measures/uniforms his flash holes and then one day he decides to measure them again and finds a difference in diameter he has to wonder what caused the increase in diameter. I had an extra flash hole gage so I gave him one. Then there are shell holders, there is a difference, convince someone there is a difference requires more time than I have available. F. Guffey | |||
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After a whole lot of years of shooting, I bought a "see if your ammo is straight" thingie. Cost damn near $100. I tried it and wasn't too amazed that my ammo was straight. I kinda knew that since it flew pretty straight and true. Especially after a turn of fire culling. I now have a $100 paperweight. And in all the years I have been shooting, I have never had a failure that could be traced to a inproper sized flash hole nor to one of those little inner flash hole trapdoors that everybody sez is inside of our domestic brass but I've never seen even though I've looked down 100s of new cases. IMHO, I think it's a case of some famed shooter from one of the disclpines was having a book ghost written and after he said "practice, practice, practice, he felt it needed a little more bulk. And, of course, no one was gonna buy the book if it didn't have some secret short cuts to the winner's circle. So he dreamed up a bunch of stuff like flash hole uniforming, flash hole deburring, case weighing, and such. And that's the rest of the story...... Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I have to agree with beeman, especially on the weight thing. I weighed bullets once (Remington bulk) and thought, "well, that's pretty darn close". Then I weighed some Rem bulk brass and thought the same thing. So I put together some extreme loads like heaviest bullet in lighest brass and vice-versa and it made no discernable difference in accuracy, so I just quit weighing brass and bullets. I don't even have one of those how straight is my load thingys. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I loaded some ammo that was crooked and shot poorly. The rifle in question was one of the first 25-06 Rem 700 that Remington made. I discovered the crooked ammo after rolling loaded rounds across a smooth table top. I took the seater to work and chucked it in a new LeBlond Regal. The seater stem had about .040 total run out. The maker asked me to send the die set, cases and bullets in for examination. I got a new set of dies and two dummy rounds back. The dummy rounds were straight. I loaded some more ammo and the accuracy went from about 1.25" groups down to about 7/8". In that case the ultimate $32,000 thingy was used - a 15X48 4000 lb engine lathe. | |||
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