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Hey guys, I am new to this fourm and really need help. I have been loading for years and never had this problem. I have an old Lyman Spartan press from the 50's or 60's I acquired from my Uncle. I set the die down till it touches the shell holder and it makes good contact. I am running these rounds through a Remington 700, when I use the resized brass the bolt will push it in to the chamber but when I lock the bolt down it will not grab the live round or the resized brass to Extract it. The rifle will cycle factory Ammo just fine so I do not have a Head spacing problem. Everyone I have spoken with has never encountered a problem like this. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks yoteman89 | ||
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What type of die are you using? X type fl resize or neck size? Is it a push feed or control feed bolt ? If the rim is too thick or has been reduced in size the extractor will miss the grove. with an X die the brass is pushed backand may be taking up the space at the extractor grouve. Dave | |||
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I am using lyman full length dies. | |||
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Also it is a push feed bolt. | |||
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take a resized piece of brass and see how well it fits into the face of the bolt. Try resizing a piece of brass part way and see if the extractor picks up the brass and ejects it. if the chamber is a little on the large sizeand the brass on the small side the brass could be pushed to one side of the chambe and the extractor may not catch the grouve. that would be an extreme set of conditions. Dave | |||
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Like Hivelocity said. I think you are pushing the shoulder back. This allows the loaded round to be pushed far enough into the chamber so the extractor does not pick up the rim. This is creating an excessive headspace situation and if you fire these rounds you are going to get cases separating about 3/8 of an inch from the rim after 1 or 2 reloads. Suggest you back your die out of the press about 1 full turn and try to resize a fired case. Try that in your rifle. If the case does NOT chamber smoothly turn the die in about 1/8 of a turn and resize again.Try it in the chamber again. When you just get the case to chamber smoothly the extractor should pick up the rim on the case and your cases should live a normal life. | |||
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Well I have backed the die out but instead of the die making any kind of contact with the shell holder the die is about 3/16" to a 1/4" from contacting the shell holder. The brass is cycling great but I am just concerned with the die being that high from the shell holder. Could this be an issue? I heard from very reliable sources that it is not wise to load anything yet due to the fact that something still is wrong with the die being so far from the shell holder. Thanks for all your input guys I really appreciate all the help. | |||
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| One of Us |
Do you know anyone who has a set of RCBS dies, or another brand such as Lee. If you do, then borrow them and try again. May be the dies are the whole problem. I had to change my dies to RCBS because of a sizing problem. Just a thought. Tony | |||
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How does the rifle eject after firing factory loads? As long as bolt lift seems okay and brass looks good I would just neck size instead of full length size. I just neck size nearly all calibers I load. Eventually you might have to bump the shoulder back a fuzz. But I have more than one caliber that is on five or six loadings just neck sizing and feeding and ejection is still as slick as can be. As for the problem your having thinking something is out of spec with your chamber. Possible sloppy near the case head. With you die adjusted in as it should be you might be pushing the oversized area of the case towards the rim. The brass has to go somewhere when you size it. If it was just pushing the shoulder back I would think you would be buckling the shoulder before you would get enough brass flowing to the casehead to cause your problem. Don't really know. Just throwing my thoughts out there. | |||
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Yoteman The fact that shell holder does not touch the bottom of the die is not a concern. I'm not sure if you have an accumulation of tolerances problem ie/ a very long chamber along with a very short die that is creating your problem or if someone has modified the die. I have seen dies that would NOT resize a case enough for that case to fit smoothly into a lever action rifle. So instead of just going and buying a small base die that person had "about" 5 thousands of an inch machined off the bottom of the die so the case would "go further in the die" . After he created a new problem of moving the shoulders back on his cases which resulted in premature case head separation he finally went and bought a new set of dies. There are many rifles with oversized chambers (this includes factory rifles). By adjusting your size die to size the neck and come within a thou or two of touching the shoulder but not moving the shoulder back you can safely deal with this odd sized chamber. | |||
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 What happens when you put a unsized fired case into the rifle? It's possible that the cases that were sized with the 3/16 or 1/4 gap never had the die and cases have their shoulders in contact.By stepping down gradually on the gap size you should be able to feel when the die shoulder and cases shoulders engage. At that point if the cases go in you still should have proper extraction , correct head space and be sizing down the rear end of the case. If all else fails get a new die.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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So far the brass that I have resized is working pretty good the bolt closes smoothly and extracts them with some authority like it should. I may load a few and see what happens. | |||
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Sounds to me like excessive headspace and could be caused by the adjustment of the die more than anything else. My .30-06 has a "tight" chamber.(Zatstava) When I started reloading for it as a teen I loaded a couple boxes of ammo for both my Dad's and mine. When we went to shoot his Rem wouldn't fire them. Further checking of brass from his rifle vs. mine showed his chamber to be longer. I HAD to size so they would barely chamber in my rifle to get them to funtion in his. There isn't anything wrong with backing the die off as long as you size the neck, and if you gradually turn it in, you can actually see how far down the neck you are sizing. If you want to be sure you have full length sized, then just adjust the die slightly further down until you just bump the shoulder. You may not be able to use the brass you've pushed the shoulder to far back on. If you've got noone experienced to help you just scrap the ones that are loose fitting. Put some marker ink on the neck while adjusting to help see what it's doing. | |||
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It can not be fair, I have a M1917 Eddystone with a chamber that is .016” longer than ‘the prefect 30/06 chamber*’. I form 280 Remington cases to 30/06 with a forming die ‘first’ by backing the forming die off the shell holder .016”, then I finish sizing with a full length sizing die that is adjusted off the shell holder .014”. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, I form first then fire. Whole forming the 280 Remington the shoulder disappears and a new shoulder takes its place, while sizng the case and forming a new shoulder I can stop, chamber the round and determine if the the case will chamber, nice thing about the M1917 type rifle, I can determine the length of the chamber with a 280 Remington case, we all should know the 280 Remington case is .051” longer than the 30/06 from the head of the case to its shoulder. *’Perfect chamber’, I size cases for a perfect chamber by adjusting the die down to the shell holder with .000’ clearance, with my presses, my dies and my shell holders I determine full length sizing by adjusting the die to the shell holder with the ram up, When I size a case I return it to minimum length, minimum length is = to full length sized, minimum length/full length size is = to factory over the counter new store bought case length and size. F. Guffey | |||
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Take one of your fired cases and either smoke black the shoulder and neck or blacken with a black marker pen and by adjusting your sizer die you can tell just when the die is touching that shoulder. If you do this please tell us what the gap is between the shell holder and the die is. | |||
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“Take one of your fired cases and either smoke black the shoulder and neck or blacken with a black marker pen and by adjusting your sizer die you can tell just when the die is touching that shoulder. If you do this please tell us what the gap is between the shell holder and the die is” That makes sense to most, but not to me. The shoulder is not the first ‘thing’ to contact the die, the case neck makes contact first then the case body is second, when the case body contact the die and ‘gets’ sized the shoulder is pushed forward with a slight arch. Because I understand the tapered sides of the shoulder form a circle and as a results form a cone and the cone creates varying diameters and the same thing is applied to the case body that is tapered, the tapered sides created a cone, the tapered cone has varying diameters, then about this time it is a waste of time to mention ‘DATUMS’ because reloaders believe the datum is a line with an arrow pointing toward it. So, I ‘sorta’ have a grip and or an understanding of the datum. I measure the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the same case before firing. If the cases I measure is new, over the counter, factory ammo I will call the measurement minimum length (after I full length size the case after firing I will call if full length sized). After firing the minimum length case (or full length sized case) I measure the length of the case again from the head of the case to its shoulder to determine the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. Back to understanding ‘DATUMS’, the difference in length between the minimum length and fired length tells me the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. Most measurements from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber for the 30/06 is between .005” and .008” longer than the minimum length new factory ammo from the head of the case to its shoulder. “....marker pen and by adjusting your sizer die you can tell just when the die is touching that shoulder....” . If the chamber is .005” longer then a full length sized case why not adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage, after making the adjustment, secure the die to the press with the lock ring, “THEN” after making the adjustment verify the adjustment with the feeler gage. Again, I have a 30/06 M1917 with a chamber that is .016” longer than a minimum length case from the head of the case to its shoulder. the chamber is classified as a field reject chamber +.002” “IF” factory minimum length/full length sized cases are to be fired in the rifle. I form 280 Remington cases to 30/06 with a forming die, I adjust the forming die off the shell holder .016” first, then full length sized the cases with the full length sizer die adjusted of the shell holder by .014” without smoke or maker coloring. Again, I understand “DATUMS”. I make Datums, I purchase DATUMS and I collect DATUMS, the datum for the 30/06 is 3/8” or .375”, the datum for the 243 is 2/5” of .400”. Then there is the insistence a reloader to defeat the purpose, a reloader sizes a case, fires it to form then fires it 5 more times after neck sizing (5 times) then they full length size it to start over with a minimum length/full length sized case, again and again, I ask “how is that possible, my cases build up a resistance to full length sizing, they get to the point my press, dies and shell holder no longer have the ability to overcome the resistance, me? I understand DATUMS, I know when my cases whip my presses. F. Guffey | |||
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I understand what SmokingJ was talking about. He was wanting to see if the poster's die was sizing the shoulder back too far which some dies can do...along with sizing everything else you mentioned. The poster can do hat check and keep adjusting his die out some and checking the case in the chamber and he will get to a point where the bolt will get snug closing on the case. Then he should adjust the die for a wee bit more sizing and he should be fine. It all sounds complicated writing it here, but really only takes a few minutes to do. | |||
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I marked the case and ran it though the die and according to the mark I Pushed the shoulder back a considerable bit, essentially crushing the brass in the die. I backed it out until I was getting brass that offered resistance when I closed the bolt. I could see it polishing the back of the case so adjusted it down a little bit to where the closes very smoothly. The gap I have between the shell holder and the base of the die is about 3/16" to 1/4". | |||
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Wow! I think that is a lot of distance between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. I can say in all my years of reloading I've never had a gap like that. Important thing is that you now have it adjusted so that the case just fits the chamber. That way you're not dealing with the dangers of excessive clearance in the head space. What brand dies are you using? | |||
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I don't think that's excessive if it works. My normal proceedure is to adjust my dies to partial full length size if I don't have neck dies for that caliber. I adjust it gradually until the sizing die just bumps the shoulder enough to make chambering easy. (hunting ammo) On most of my rifles this method seems to yield good brass life and consistant ammo. I pay almost no attention what so ever to gap between die and shell holder. You don't need to overcomplicate the adjusting process. All you are really doing is squeezing it enough to hold the bullet in place and fit in your chamber. More complicated explainations are just that. | |||
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I'm just imagining the larger of the measurements he gave, the 1/4 inch. That means on many cartridges the some of the expanded part of the case, in front of the web, isn't getting sized back down. He must have a tight chamber in the rear portion. | |||
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I am using Lyman dies with a Lyman Spartan press. It is a old set up. | |||
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True. Is Full length sizing needed? If you answer yes, then why are neck sizing dies used? In a bolt action full legth sizing serves no purpose in my opinion. If you screw the die in far enough to size the neck without squeesing the rest and chamber it it will cycle fine. The more you size the brass the faster it work hardens and will crack. | |||
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No full length sizing isn't needed. Question to the poster. I'd like to know how far the case body was in your smith's resizer die. In other words how much of a gap did he have between the shell holder the die. | |||
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One little trick to confirm you're at about the right spot with your die is to take a piece of fired brass (hopefully that isn't too dirty) and get some soot on the neck and shoulder using a match or a lighter. Once you've got that area blackened up, put the brass in the holder and run it up into the die. Do this the first time with the die out about where you're at. After bringing the brass back out, inspect the neck and shoulder. You want the die low enough such that the neck will be clean and you're just making a small clean spot at the front end of the shoulder. If you only see a partial "cleaning" of the neck, lower the die and repeat. If the neck is fully clean and you can see also a clean spot on the neck, back the die out. Once you think you've hit the sweet spot, seat a bullet in the empty case and see how it feeds, paying close attention to the feel of the bolt as you close it. If it's tight, you need to lower the die just a small amount to increase the headspace. It's a fair amount of back and forth I know, but once you've got it set you can lock the ring on your sizing die so that it should setup the same everytime. By doing this you will avoid the excessive headspacing that I believe was the cause of your original problem. It will also lengthen the life of your brass by reducing excessive stretching of your brass. | |||
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SmokinJ I am a gunsmith with several years of smithing and reloading and have never seen this in my time. I have tried the same procedure with a RCBS Resizer and Lee Resizer. I have to set all the dies the same Distance from the shell holder for the brass to sized right. I have never seen such a thing. | |||
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Do you think it's short chambered? Have you tried a Go gauge in it? This is really interesting, but a problem for you know. | |||
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If it were short chambered standard factory ammo would be on the long side and may be hard to close the bolt on, correct? If the chamber is just a bit deep and you adjust a die to minimum I can see this as a head space issue. Have you given any thought to casting the chamber to get the actual measurements? | |||
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I have run the GO gauge, No Go Gauge and a Field gauge through the action and everything checks out ok. Here is a good one though, I used a friends press the other day and set up like the dies instructions state. With the die just making solid contact with the shell holder we resized a few pieces and everything works great. This just keeps leading me back to the press or my die, unfortunatly I forgot to take my dies down to try in his press. This little ordeal is really getting intersting to say the least! | |||
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I can't see that it matters what you press the case into the die with as long as it's pressed into the die the same distance. This excludes a press that puts the ram way out of line with the die. I don't believe that to be situation here. It is indeed interesting. Seems your die is where the interesting situation begins. Perhaps you should invest in a new die. Being you have a set you can buy just the sizer die of your choice. | |||
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“I have run the GO gauge, No Go Gauge and a Field gauge through the action and everything checks out ok” The go-gage allowed the bolt to close? The bolt did not close on the no go-gage? The bolt did not close on the field reject gage? Common sense/deductive reasoning tells you the chamber is longer than minimum length and shorter than no go-gage length. If I had a go, no and beyond length gage I would learn to use them, chamber gages are transfers, chamber length gages are standards, I am the fan of standards, transfers and verifying. Again, If I had the three gages, go, no and beyond I would learn to use them as transfers and standards. I would start with removing the primer punch/neck sizer plug assemble from the die then install ‘A’ die in ‘one of my presses’ then install the go-gage in the shell holder, raise the ram then with the ram at the top of its travel adjust the die down to the go-gage (I would not use a pipe wrench to secure the die). After the die contacts the go-gage ‘STOP! then secure the die to the press with the lock ring, avoid allowing the die to rotate (because of the incline plain. After securing the die, verify the adjustment. The go-gage will not allow the die to contact the shell holder, adjusting the die down to the shell holder allows for sizing a case to minimum length/full length sizing. This method/technique requires a reloader to back away from the key board, get out of the house and find a hardware store or an automotive parts store, the up-side? With a minimum skill the reloader can become a verifier of adjustments. After the die adjustment with the go-gage the die is adjusted off the shell holder, HOW MUCH? The difference should be the difference between a go-gage length chamber and a minimum length case, from the usual places. From the head of the case to the shoulder of the case and from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. “This little ordeal is really getting interesting to say the least!” It does not have to be that way. After I got good with adjusting the sizer die with the go-gage I would then verify the no go-gage and the field reject gage. Because I have done this for so long with so many different presses, dies and shell holders I skip the go, no and beyond gage adjustment, I go straight to adjusting the die with the feeler gage. One more time, the feeler gage is a standard, the feeler gage is a transfer, and for verifying there is nothing that comes close to verifying adjustments than the feeler gage/the elite refer to the feeler gage as a thickness gage, Google Redding and thickness gage. Presses? I have presses, the one that will not size a case was sold to me as a lemon/orange juicer. At the NAPA flea market, a dealer claimed he had an antique lemon squeezer, I argued, I tried to help him, I explained to him too many parts were missing, even if it would crush a lemon, to work, it would have to be mounted to the sealing (upside down), anyhow, I purchased it for $5.00, It looks like like a spider doing push ups, and it does not work. Old catalogs from the 50s list reviews and pictures, the author of the article prevented would be reloaders from considering the purchase. F. Guffey | |||
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What Lyman dies do you have? Are they 310 dies or Truline dies adapted to a 7/8 -14 thread press? There are no 7/8-14 dies I have ever heard of that were set up with such an air gap on the full length sizing die. I think if you get a good set of RCBS, Redding or Forster dies your problem will cease to exist. Some of us here could loan you a set of dies but a good set can be bought off of ebay for $20 to $25 on ebay.
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Have you figured it out? Cerrosafe could be worth the trouble. | |||
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Could it be the rifle is actually chambered for the 6mm Remington? Cheers, Number 10 | |||
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Standard shellholders should be the same for all standard dies. But ........ could it be a shellholder issue of some sort?  I ask this because you stated that other brands of dies also had the same gap between the top of the shellholder and the die. So I don't think the die is the problem. Redding makes "custom height" shellholders. It's possible that you may have something like this or a "Bubba-ized" shellholder of some sort. | |||
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Im with you, gotta be the shellholder. | |||
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I said this earlier but I'll post it again. My Dads Remington .30-06 model 760 will not fire cases that are sized to the minimum allowed by by his dies when set up the way the directions tell you to set them up. There are anomilies. My '06 fired the ammo that would not shoot in his without a hitch at all. I think the manufacturing process yields variances. That's why there are minimum and maximum dims established. So if your gun is on the max side and the dies minimum you'll have much more headspace. | |||
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“I think the manufacturing process yields variances. That's why there are minimum and maximum dims established. So if your gun is on the max side and the dies minimum you'll have much more headspace” Along with knowing enough about a shell holder to determine the deck height the reloader should know the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder in the die, to understand that measurement the reloader must understand the measurement form the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, and now for the most difficult part to understand, the relationship[ between the chamber when measured from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber and the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die. Back to the ‘BIG INNING’ he claimed he has three gages, he claimed he had the go and the no and the beyond gage, and I said “I am the fan of transfers, standards and verifying”. No one on this forum has a clue as to what I am talking about. A reloader with a go-gage SHOULD be able to check the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die, WITHOUT A PRESS! Just simply place the go-gage in the shell holder then insert the case into the die. In the perfect world the die will not contact the shell holder BECAUSE!!!! the go-gage is go-gage length (a little bit of information that is wasted on this forum), the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die is minimum length, go-gage length (length of the perfect chamber) is longer than minimum length, MEANING! the go-gage will prevent the die from contacting the top of the shell holder because the go-gage is too long. The go-gage is a transfer, it is a standard, it is a verifying tool for verifying measurements when used with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage. “ I think the manufacturing process yields variances. That's why there are minimum and maximum dims established. So if your gun is on the max side and the dies minimum you'll have much more headspace” It is not fair, all my dies and presses have threads, threads allow me to adjust my dies to my shell holders, by adjusting my dies to my shell holders I am able to control the length of my cases from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case, by controlling the length of my cases from the head of the case to its shoulder I am able to off set the length of the chamber, what does all this mean? “So if your gun is on the max side and the dies minimum you'll have much more headspace” Back to “It is not fair” My dies are adjustable, I determine the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case. everyone else is getting ‘fixed length’ dies. I have no ideal why manufacturers of dies do not sell dies with threads to other reloaders, again, it is not fair. I size cases for short chambers, short by as much as .017” shorter than a minimum length case to infinity, or I should say .016” longer than a minimum length case when measured from the head of the case to its shoulder with nothing more than a feeler gage, the companion tool to the press, again, the feeler gage. Short chambered by -.017” to +.016 is .033”. F. Guffey | |||
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It wasn't mentioned before in this thread, so how can this be "one more time"? Yes. Dimension X on RCBS #3, Lee and Lyman #2s, and Hornady #1 shellholders is .1250". If person/persons unknown filed, ground or milled some material from the top of the shellholder ..... or this is some sort of special order shell holder, this would cause the condition that yote describes. F. Guffey, I don't think you need to lecture yoteman89. He went through the proper steps checking the headspace on the firearm and adjusting the die for proper headspacing in his firearm. He was just looking for the "why" this was happening. | |||
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