280 AI vs Nosler 280AI

24 July 2011, 22:06

ramrod340

Yes in the theory the Nosler 280AI brass has the shoulder a touch further back than what many called the STD 280AI. Question I have is how many people really have a STD 280AI?????

AIS were done correctly by setting the barrel back probably just as many were done incorrectly by simply running the reamer into a std factory chamber until it cleans up.

I would simply buy the brass and check it in your rifle. If you have a case of excess headspace neck the nosler brass up to 308 then back down to 280 forming a false shoulder where you need it.

Worstcase you will need to move the shoulder a touch forward. YOu will NOT need to blow the brass out and I'd bet you wouldn't see a real accuracy/velocity change during the forming.

Since you are building from scratch simply have the smith cut the chamber to match the Nosler brass. Problem solved.

24 July 2011, 22:39

W Lewis

I"m in the process of trying to find a decent smith close to my area. I plan on discussing the issue with him. I was kind of wondering if any guys with older AI's have had issues with the newer Nosler brass.

24 July 2011, 23:17

Scott Spencer

Can standard .280 ammo be shot in the newer Nosler AI version? That is my one concern.

I know that Ackley originally designed the AI chamber to be able to shoot factory .280 ammo... which is an advantage if you get somewhere and have lost your reloads.

24 July 2011, 23:33

ramrod340

quote:
Can standard .280 ammo be shot in the newer Nosler AI version? That is my one concern

The answer should be yes. Pepends on just how much CRUSH you end up with. Per the article here is their comment.

""you cannot safely use the Nosler brass in a traditional Ackley chamber, although it would still be safe to fire form factory ammo in a SAAMI/Nosler chamber.""

25 July 2011, 04:49

rcamuglia

Woods did a whole thread on this issue. Use the search function to find it. It had good info.

25 July 2011, 04:54

jeffeosso

280 AI vs 280, at the same pressure --
net? 50-75 FPS ... no, REALLY

if you want alot more than a 280, get a 7rem or 7x61

25 July 2011, 04:59

ramrod340

quote:
280 AI vs 280, at the same pressure --
net? 50-75 FPS ... no, REALLY

While my pride and joy is my 280PDK which is a 280AI with the shoulder moved forward like a gibbs I must agree with Jeffe.

If you want an AI go for it. If you are really looking for an increase over a 280 look to a magnum.

Factory 280s are loaded down because the max is 60,000 so people comparing an AI to factory ammo see a larger increase. Load both the 280 & 280AI to 63-65000 like a 270 and 50fpr is a good forecast.

25 July 2011, 06:28

W Lewis

quote:
if you want alot more than a 280, get a 7rem or 7x61

I agree but here's the deal. Long story short, had a friend of mine give me a #2 contour 284 barrel.Already have an older model sako action waiting on a project With that slim of a profile I really didn't want to go 7mag and thought the 280 was a good alternative.The 280 AI is a little bit more velocity and since I plan on reloading figured it wasn't a big deal. Just trying to see what I'd be getting into.

25 July 2011, 07:15

ramrod340

quote:
The 280 AI is a little bit more velocity and since I plan on reloading figured it wasn't a big deal. Just trying to see what I'd be getting into.

I assume you don't mean chambered in 284?

There is nothing wrong with a 280AI as long as you know what you are getting. Like I said I shoot my 280PDK. I say anyone that wants an AI should build one. Some of us just don't want people to expect too much.

25 July 2011, 07:16

woods

quote:
Originally posted by W Lewis:
I was kind of wondering if any guys with older AI's have had issues with the newer Nosler brass.

Yes!

The only thing to remember is to not use Nosler 280AI brass, just use Nosler 280 Remington caliber brass or any 280 Remington caliber brass.

But chances are your gunsmith will use a modern reamer so you wouldn't have a problem anyway.

25 July 2011, 20:31

W Lewis

quote:
I assume you don't mean chambered in 284?

No, the barrel has not been threaded or chambered.

25 July 2011, 20:53

jeffeosso

if unchambered.. go with the 280 or 7x64 .. the 280 ai sounds cool.. but you get about 25% increase in velocity of the increase in capacity. lets say you get a 5% increase in capacity...

that means 5/4=1.25% increase in vel...
AT THE SAME PRESSURE

or, in a 2800fps load, you get 35 fps...

load it with rel 19 or 22, the 280 regular, and get the same gain.. and save a couple hundred on dies and reamer

26 July 2011, 23:41

W Lewis

well upon further review,looks like the sako action is a mag action with mag bolt face even though it has only L691 markings.Soooo, it may need to be a 7mag which means I may not use the thin barrel.

27 July 2011, 01:34

ramrod340

quote:
well upon further review,looks like the sako action is a mag action with mag bolt face even though it has only L691 markings.Soooo, it may need to be a 7mag which means I may not use the thin barrel.

If it was good enough for a 280AI should be plenty good for a 7mag.

27 July 2011, 08:06

Scott Spencer

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
280 AI vs 280, at the same pressure --
net? 50-75 FPS ... no, REALLY

if you want alot more than a 280, get a 7rem or 7x61

Excellent point, Jeffe. I've got a .280 that shoots great and I admit my knowledge on the AI is limited. I think I'll just stick with the regular .280 and push the envelope as much as I safely can on my reloads.

27 July 2011, 18:26

tom holland

quote:
Originally posted by Scott Spencer:
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
280 AI vs 280, at the same pressure --
net? 50-75 FPS ... no, REALLY

if you want alot more than a 280, get a 7rem or 7x61
Excellent point, Jeffe. I've got a .280 that shoots great and I admit my knowledge on the AI is limited. I think I'll just stick with the regular .280 and push the envelope as much as I safely can on my reloads.

The 280AI is no longer a wildcat caliber it becames a SAAMI caliber approved 2/1/2008. Today with all the loading information don't know why anyone would want to compare the 280AI to a 280.

27 July 2011, 19:37

ramrod340

quote:
Today with all the loading information don't know why anyone would want to compare the 280AI to a 280.

28 July 2011, 04:45

tom holland

quote:
Originally posted by ramrod340:
quote:
Today with all the loading information don't know why anyone would want to compare the 280AI to a 280.

I was posting about this comment

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
280 AI vs 280, at the same pressure --
net? 50-75 FPS ... no, REALLY

if you want alot more than a 280, get a 7rem or 7x61

29 July 2011, 21:24

jeffeosso

Tom,
interesting .. why would i bother with a 280AI, when the standard is within 100fps at the same pressure? unless i had a remmie automajic or pump, i wouldn't never see a reason for ME to own it..

of course, with the advent of rel22, i can't see a reason for shooting a SPEC 300HH, when the 30-06 can be loaded, with 180s, to the same vels as a SPEC 300hh.

29 July 2011, 22:54

ramrod340

quote:
with the advent of rel22

I did the same thing with MRP long before RL22 hit the market. All RL22 did was save me a couple $$.

31 July 2011, 06:41

tom holland

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Tom,
interesting .. why would i bother with a 280AI, when the standard is within 100fps at the same pressure? unless i had a remmie automajic or pump, i wouldn't never see a reason for ME to own it..

of course, with the advent of rel22, i can't see a reason for shooting a SPEC 300HH, when the 30-06 can be loaded, with 180s, to the same vels as a SPEC 300hh.

jeffeosso, I understand some use various methods when comparing calibers etc. I don't compare calibers when I build the 280AI thats what I wanted. If I decided to build a 280 I wouldn't worry the less bit that I have a 280AI.

I must admit when I got my first 7x57AI that some bullet/powder combinations did equal my factory 7mag velocity I was shooting at the time. I'm very lucky in all the Ackley's I've had build I have owned and shot the parent case.

I've got the 35 WhelenAI that was done last year and I'm in the planning for a 35 Whelen just need to figure out who's barrel going to use. I'm sure I'll enjoy shooting the 35 Whelen as much as I do the 35 WhelenAI.

31 July 2011, 07:44

jeffeosso

Tom,
and i am saying that the facts, math, and production realities are, the AI vrsions that create a less than 10% increase in capacity re NOT worth having, to the properly informed. Oh, i get decisions made and wants.. but the facts are at a 10% capacity increase, you get about a 2.5% increase in velocity, AT THE SAME PRESSURE.

unless you make a fundimental change in the case..such as adding a shoulder where there's not one.. my 458 AR vs a 458 lott, for example.

if one's ego writes the checks, then by all means, spend the extra money and reduce the value of the gun by making it an AI. If cold hard facts matter in the decision making process, then loading the parent case, to the same pressure (not same load) and perhaps changing to slower powder will giv you identical performance, zero additional expense, and when/if you get bored, it is not a wildcat (yeah yeah, the 280ai is saami.. but not a single one of the hundreds made before the print)

Sir, if you 7x57AI meets factory spec of a 7remmag, please wear a distinctive article of clothing to the range.. i don't care how safe it is in your gun, i don't want to be near that load going off.. not even behind a protective barrier... max pressure is ruthless, even though it doesn't always mean velocity.

the 7x57ai is about 30% smaller than the 7remmag .. to MATCH it, using the same powder, requires the following math .. ".30/.25" or 120% of the pressure of the remmag (did i do that right? the other way shows 520 percent)...

at 62,500PSI for the remmag, you have to load the 7x57 to AT LEAST 75,000 psi (62500*1.20)

its not that i don't believe your results. I do, in fact, believe you could, and therefore did..

i don't agree with your appproach, not would i use that as a basis to say get the AI ..

31 July 2011, 09:25

ramrod340

Jeffe,

You and I agree 100% of the gain of the AI. I had to burn 1000s of round over 10 years to prove it to myself.

That said I shoot my PDKs because I want too. If someone wants to shoot a 280AI instead of a 280 and knows the math then I say more power to him. What I (we) try to do is put a damper on some of the ungodly claims made for AI increases. I believe Tom is making a very informed decision.

Some people will spend extra for a 7-08 over a 7x57. Heck I say if it is their $$ and that is what they want then go for it.

While I never pushed a 7x57AI to reach factory 7mag I do it all the time with my 280PDK. Given it is 11% greater capacity than a 280. My 340PDK would beat factory 338Wmag velocity and I use both my case for 6-8 loading and then toss. Neither one would match my own reloads.

As too your math I've had a couple glasses of wine so I'll pass on trying to follow it.

Let's see I shoot more wildcats than std you probably do as well. I say if a guy knows the math then build anything he wants. I've never built (and I wonder how many times you have) a rifle worried about resale.

31 July 2011, 17:20

tom holland

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Tom,
and i am saying that the facts, math, and production realities are, the AI vrsions that create a less than 10% increase in capacity re NOT worth having, to the properly informed. Oh, i get decisions made and wants.. but the facts are at a 10% capacity increase, you get about a 2.5% increase in velocity, AT THE SAME PRESSURE.

unless you make a fundimental change in the case..such as adding a shoulder where there's not one.. my 458 AR vs a 458 lott, for example.

if one's ego writes the checks, then by all means, spend the extra money and reduce the value of the gun by making it an AI. If cold hard facts matter in the decision making process, then loading the parent case, to the same pressure (not same load) and perhaps changing to slower powder will giv you identical performance, zero additional expense, and when/if you get bored, it is not a wildcat (yeah yeah, the 280ai is saami.. but not a single one of the hundreds made before the print)

Sir, if you 7x57AI meets factory spec of a 7remmag, please wear a distinctive article of clothing to the range.. i don't care how safe it is in your gun, i don't want to be near that load going off.. not even behind a protective barrier... max pressure is ruthless, even though it doesn't always mean velocity.

the 7x57ai is about 30% smaller than the 7remmag .. to MATCH it, using the same powder, requires the following math .. ".30/.25" or 120% of the pressure of the remmag (did i do that right? the other way shows 520 percent)...

at 62,500PSI for the remmag, you have to load the 7x57 to AT LEAST 75,000 psi (62500*1.20)

its not that i don't believe your results. I do, in fact, believe you could, and therefore did..

i don't agree with your appproach, not would i use that as a basis to say get the AI ..

Just understand something I didn't build the 7x57AI to equal the 7mag and the loading data I used came from Speer wildcat manual #4 and that rifle was build early 80's.

For some unknown reason Hodgdon may disagree with you on equal pressure for the 280AI you may want to look at their reloading data for the 280AI.

I'd sure like to see a copy of the letter you send them as to your pressure test compared to theirs.

31 July 2011, 21:31

ramrod340

quote:
For some unknown reason Hodgdon may disagree with you on equal pressure for the 280AI you may want to look at their reloading data for the 280AI.

Tom Like I said you want an AI please build one. However I would be curious to see what Hodgdon data you are looking at. On their site first they have very few of the same bullets listed. Second the 280 for the most part lists the pressure as CUP the 280AI lists pressure as PSI.

Looking at the 120 bullets which seems to be the only one using PSI for both the 280 loads cap out in the 57-58000 psi range. The 280AI on the other had tops out at up to 62,000.

QL says in a 280 using 120gr bullets a 4000 psi difference is worth about 65-75fps. So take the 280 loads and add 75fps to them and see how they compare to the 280AI.

As I've said many times the AI hides pressure. From the actual pressure testing I did years ago with several AIs loaded to the same pressure as best I could measure, same barrel, same brass, same bullets I got a 1% velocity for each 4% capacity gain. Which says on pressure alone you are going to get around 50fps from your AI add on another 75 for pressure over factory loads then yes you are in the 125+/- range.

YOu want it please build it. You will enjoy it. Just don't be too disappointed if you don't see huge gains over 280 rem handloads.

01 August 2011, 06:24

tom holland

quote:
Originally posted by ramrod340:
quote:
For some unknown reason Hodgdon may disagree with you on equal pressure for the 280AI you may want to look at their reloading data for the 280AI.

Tom Like I said you want an AI please build one. However I would be curious to see what Hodgdon data you are looking at. On their site first they have very few of the same bullets listed. Second the 280 for the most part lists the pressure as CUP the 280AI lists pressure as PSI.

Looking at the 120 bullets which seems to be the only one using PSI for both the 280 loads cap out in the 57-58000 psi range. The 280AI on the other had tops out at up to 62,000.

QL says in a 280 using 120gr bullets a 4000 psi difference is worth about 65-75fps. So take the 280 loads and add 75fps to them and see how they compare to the 280AI.

As I've said many times the AI hides pressure. From the actual pressure testing I did years ago with several AIs loaded to the same pressure as best I could measure, same barrel, same brass, same bullets I got a 1% velocity for each 4% capacity gain. Which says on pressure alone you are going to get around 50fps from your AI add on another 75 for pressure over factory loads then yes you are in the 125+/- range.

YOu want it please build it. You will enjoy it. Just don't be too disappointed if you don't see huge gains over 280 rem handloads.

Paul,

Myself I'm loading a SAAMI caliber which happen to be a 280AI.

Again I'm not comparing my 280I to a 280 so there is nothing to be disappointed about. I'm very happy with the loads from Nolser manual using 160gr bullets and I do mean very happy. All in the barrels

15 February 2016, 20:44

sputster

Comparing cartridge diagrams from the Nosler website and the Sierra bullet reloading manual 5th edition.

The two drawings share the same rim diameter (.473"), case length (2.525"), and shoulder angle (40degrees).

From there I see the differences -

Base to shoulder - Nosler 2.097", Sierra 2.090"
Base to beginning of neck - Nosler 2.182", Sierra 2.175"
Case shoulder juncture diameter - Nosler .454", Sierra .450"
Shoulder-neck juncture diameter - Nosler .311", Sierra .308"

Is this Sierra entry referencing the older 280 AI dimensions?

And are the differences enough to avoid using the Sierra data in a Nosler (SAAMI chamber) rifle using Nosler 280 AI brass?

16 February 2016, 02:28

2Barrels

This was provide to me, so I'll pass it along.

https://gunsmithtalk.wordpress...ical-headspace-test/

16 February 2016, 04:47

ted thorn

If your bolt has a magnum face have your smith cut a Nosler 28 chamber in it

16 February 2016, 05:00

Ackley Improved User

I have two standard 280 AIs and I can shoot Nosler 280 AI brass just fine. It's a little tight initially but fits perfectly after firing.

18 February 2016, 20:39

mcvsbt

I bought a older DAKOTA in 280AI from a fellow on this site a couple of years ago...I procrastinated in buying dies, primers etc. and when hunting season rolled around and tried to buy them they were out of stock..I ordered a box of ammo from hendershots and when it arrived the bullets would not chamber in my 280AI..after discussing it with them we found that they used 280AI nosler brass and that it is NOT the same as P.O's original 280AI spec. It gets even better. I finally found a set of redding dies and ordered them.. I reloaded several rounds and they would not chamber either.. talking to redding (very helpful tech support)they said the dies I ordered where for 280AI SAMMI spec which is what nosler loads and that they are not the same as the old P.O Ackely spec but they sell a special shell holder I can buy (.014" taller)to use my dies with. I bought the shell holder and have had no problems reloading ever since.

P.s. All above loads where within max COAL specs.