These are the loads and bullets I will soon test in my CZ 458 WinMag.With the 500gr TSX,73gr vit 540,69gr vit 140,74gr win748.With the 500gr Swift A-Frame,74.5gr vit 140,79gr vit 540,80gr win748.I am using Win cases and Fed 215M primers.Cases are crimped with the Lee factory crimp die and bullets seated with the Redding die.[URL= ]TSX[/URL][URL= ]A-Frame[/URL] I will TRY to shoot groups at 200yds with a 1.5-5X scope.She should surely shine when I shoot.

About the only component I reconise are the Win cases.
But 200 yards? Fair go. Don't ya know thoes CZ's maybe don't line up the barrel with the reciever. Have you bore sighted?

I think a long shot for a 500 gr .458 is more like 100 yards?
I can hardly wait.

Please keep us informed. I have a CZ in 458WM.

I am not setup at all.

I have not bore sighted yet.I should be receiving the rifle in the next couple of days.I have the Talley mounts and a 2.5x8 Leopold on hand.I might use this scope if it is not too short for the rings.If it's too short I will buy the 1.5x5.I've heard about the alignment problem but I will try to get by if there is one.I am nervous about getting hit by the scope with the max loads.I wish I had a hockey mask.I had to stay clear of the scope on my 300RUM and now I've got 1000ft/pds more energy to deal with.I'll post a picture of the rifle when it is all set up.

I've seen you post in the past about "Barrel Life" but notice no mention of it about the 458Win. How many "shots" is the barrel good for? 1 or 2?

I figure this one will last until I find the right load.Once I do I will rebarrel.I would have preffered to start with a quality match barrel,because I am concerned the CZ barrel may not group at all at 200yds.I might get lucky and find it grouping nicely with the first three rds.If so,I will feel relieved that I can TRUST an inexpensive CZ for an african safari.I don't mind if the barrel lasts 50 rds ,because all I need is three or four rds to sight in and the remainder will be enough for a feww ton of buff.Once I get my load and the rifle is sighted in,it is put aside and shot only at game.See HotCore,if you want a rifle that will STABLIZE the bullet for top performance,then the barrel has to be in top shape.If you are not concerned with top performance and accept tumbling bullets etc... then you can keep the barrel longer.The bullet must SPIN through the air and impact STRAIGHT.

HotCore,if you want a rifle that will STABLIZE the bullet for top performance,then the barrel has to be in top shape.If you are not concerned with top performance and accept tumbling bullets etc... then you can keep the barrel longer.The bullet must SPIN through the air and impact STRAIGHT.



Wow so the rifles that I have that have a couple of thousand through them should be throwing bullets end over end. Is that correct? But low and behold they still shoot small groups with handloads.
Well going with your reasoning I should have only to chamber a round in my 220 swift and the barrel will be smooth and worthless, but yet 2000 plus rounds and it still shoots 1/2" or less at 100 yards with quite a few different bullets.

Hipster,your the type that doesn't LISTEN to the question BEFORE answering.I wonder if that has anything to do with you being a Hipi or Hipster.

quote:

Originally posted by Hipster:
... Wow so the rifles that I have that have a couple of thousand through them should be throwing bullets end over end. Is that correct? ...

Hey Hipster, You probably just got lucky, and as they are tumbling, they just happen to make it to the Target(or Game) as the Tip tumbles into a straight profile. AMAZING!!!
-----

quote:

...all I need is three or four rds to sight in and the remainder(EDIT IN: 44-46 cartridges) will be enough for a few ton of buff.

Hey shootaway, I wish you the very best of luck with your 458Win and "maybe" it will be good for a couple more shots.

How did the 3-4 shots do for you at 200yds? 0.100MOA?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Hipster,your the type that doesn't LISTEN to the question BEFORE answering.I wonder if that has anything to do with you being a Hipi or Hipster.

I am glad you are able to type me by reading a post. It is quite obivious that you have no sense of humor whatsoever.

So now that you have proven your knowledge is far superior to mine, perhaps you can enlighten me to the results I have been getting with a new rifle I recently purchased.

Remington 700 CDL in 35 Whelen

Well when I first started to shoot this rifle my groups were 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" for 3 shots and I got quite a bit of copper fouling so I cleand the rifle and kept shooting it. Now low and behold with the exact same loads It is keeping 3 bullets in 1" consistantly after about 100 shots and does not foul hardly at all.

Please enlighten me as to the above effect as I am now very confused.

quote:

Hey Hipster, You probably just got lucky, and as they are tumbling, they just happen to make it to the Target(or Game) as the Tip tumbles into a straight profile. AMAZING!!!

So could this be called "The lawn dart effect"? That would go a long ways to explaning what is going on.And it sure does explain why toast will always hit the floor peanutbutter side down when dropped from the counter. Wonder what kind of groups I could get with toast and peanut butter.

Hipster,same loads but how about cases? Were your first shots fired from new cases and the following from resized? If so,your rifle may prefer the resized cases.As for the copper fouling,what makes you think that your rifle is now fouling less? Are you useing a bore scope to measure copper fouling? This was my point from the begining. You are assuming you know everything without looking at the problem a little more carefully.

quote:

Now low and behold with the exact same loads It is keeping 3 bullets in 1" consistantly after about 100 shots and does not foul hardly at all.

Yes indeed, 3 in 1" so it must be "Shot Out". When you get totally disgusted with the 0.5"-0.75" groups (as the barrel breaks in) I might bail you out and take it off your hands.
-----

Hey shootaway, Where's the groups??? Barrel already worn out?

quote:

Hipster,same loads but how about cases? Were your first shots fired from new cases and the following from resized? If so,your rifle may prefer the resized cases.As for the copper fouling,what makes you think that your rifle is now fouling less? Are you useing a bore scope to measure copper fouling? This was my point from the begining. You are assuming you know everything without looking at the problem a little more carefully.

Well all the cases are full length resized. I even run brand new cases through the full length die. So now that that has been eliminated as the cause of increased accuracy. Now when I am shooting a new factory rifle that has a factory barrel I like to use Barnes CR-10 for cleaning I also use nylon brushes so I don't get false copper signs from bronze brushes. As the barrel gets shot and cleaned the darkness of blue on the patches decreased with each succcessive cleaning. Currently I get very little blue coloration on my patches.
Henceforth I switch to Butches Bore Shine which I like to use for all my " worn out barrels" as it does a good job on both carbon and copper fouling. Barrel is fouling less and groups are getting better at each outing.

Now theory would suggest that the rough areas in the barrel are over time being worn smooth by a softer material through friction and heat produced through that friction and from the burning of the powder.

Another point of revelence on the topic
Three fellows that shoot at the same range I do are heading to Austria for a Bench shoot in the next couple of weeks. The barrels they will be shooting are the same ones they have been shooting in this shooting year, so I suspect they have many hundreds of rounds through them. These barrels are not being changed as they continue to put bullet after bullet into groups smaller than I could ever dream of.

The jist of all the above is you are assuming that your knowledge is superior to all other's here whether you can admit it or not. There are guys here like Hot Core or Seafire or Ray Akinson and so many others that have forgoten more about shooting and reloading than I could ever hope to learn. I try to use the resource of the knowledge they present and I can tell you in the 2 years I have been here I have advanced 10 years in knowledge because of this.

Ya know I could go on and on and on but I am just a paisty little man that seems to make out ok and I still learn something new every day.

quote:

Yes indeed, 3 in 1" so it must be "Shot Out". When you get totally disgusted with the 0.5"-0.75" groups (as the barrel breaks in) I might bail you out and take it off your hands.

Once it gets that bad Hot Core and I finish barfing in disenchantment.I might just pay a visit to a buddy of mine who lives outside of charlotte. If you are on the way I will pitch it out the window into your drive way.

So far you have not elimanated anything.Running new brass through a resizing die has no effect on the case.Second,just because you are not getting patch coloration does not mean you have no copper in the bore or that you have removed the copper.IMO,you have not learned this yet.Hot Core thinks the problem is because the barrel is not broken in yet.I don't agree.As far as bench rest shooting with barrels that have hundreds of rounds through them,I see nothing wrong with that because barrel life is much longer with cartridges containing small powder charges.On the subject of wisdom,the other day at the range I met a geezer with all the shooting attire who was just a JERK.Hot Core be patient I will be shooting the 458 WM soon.Just waiting for a scope to arrive.

quote:

Originally posted by Hipster:
[... Once it gets that bad Hot Core and I finish barfing in disenchantment.I might just pay a visit to a buddy of mine who lives outside of charlotte. If you are on the way I will pitch it out the window into your drive way.

Hey Hipster, It would be a l-o-n-g toss at the moment, because I'm "temporarily" in KY. However, by the time you get "disenchanted" with the 35Whe, I should be back in the Carolinas.
-----

Hey shootaway, Doesn't that 458Win have good old Iron Sights on it? No need to wait on a scope if you are only planning to shoot it at a meer 200yds. Let-er rip!

Just recalculated and that 458Win barrel might be worthless after 1/2 a shot. How many shots do you think it will be good for?

If I put the bead on the target at 100 or 200 it will probably cover the whole thing.

Hey shootaway, Here is a Total Secret I'll share with you, but don't tell anyone.

When 458Win rifles are used on Game they were designed for, those are VERY BIG animals. Get a nice BIG Target and - Let-er Rip!

Something the size of an "old" Lincoln Hub Cap should do just fine. Spray it Gray(to simulate the Game) and crank off all the shots you want.
-----

Soooooo, how's the groups!

The kill zone on a cape buff is not as big as the buff. Hunting without a scope is a different sport compared to hunting with one.You've got to get much closer to the game to asure a well placed shot.Getting within 50 yds of a buff may not be possible on a safari.The rifle will be shot during many offhand shooting sessions.That's what I am all about.As far as hubcaps,you are only allowed to shoot at paper targets at the range.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The kill zone on a cape buff is not as big as the buff. Hunting without a scope is a different sport compared to hunting with one.You've got to get much closer to the game to asure a well placed shot.

I can agree with those thoughts.

quote:

Getting within 50 yds of a buff may not be possible on a safari.

Beats me, I've never been there. Shooting with Iron Sights " accurately " at l-o-n-g distance is very do-able. It has been done so for a few hundred years, but does require a bit of practice.

quote:

As far as hubcaps,you are only allowed to shoot at paper targets at the range.

I remember a Range like that in Gastonia, NC. I just decided to shoot elsewhere. But if that is all you have, just use a BIG Target made of whatever they allow. You can't let that keep you from blasting away.

quote:

The rifle will be shot during many offhand shooting sessions.That's what I am all about.

This confuses me. I seem to remember a lot of your posts which mention barrels being "totally shot-out" in way less than 100 rounds. So I don't see how you can shoot it in "many offhand sessions" since you are so adamant about the barrels being worthless after a few shots.

Do you plan to re-barrel 25-50 times a week, or spray patterns with a "totally shot-out" barrel?
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Hey Hipster, How is shootaway going to accomplish any level of acceptable accuracy with Totally WORTHLESS barrels?

When the barrel stops grouping from a rest at distances I want to shoot,then I will just rebarrel.I don't think I can stand shooting as many rds as I do with my 308.I plan to shoot the big gun until I feel comforatable with it offhand at all ranges.The idea of hunting without a scope sounds tempting and,I might give it a try.Scope or not,it is interesting to find out what the rifles accuracy potential is with a scope at 200yds.

quote:

Hey Hipster, How is shootaway going to accomplish any level of acceptable accuracy with Totally WORTHLESS barrels?

Hmmmmm That took some thinking !

Now I am going to present a theory that I have been rolling around in the old "rat trap" for a little while. As it is a theory and I am sure you will agree that it is way out there.
I think as a matter of simplicity I should put it point form.

(1) I stop on the way home from work and get a really really good bottle of single malt.

(2) I pour one on the rocks and sit back and reflect on the past day.

(3) Then once finished I have dinner.

(4) After dinner well thats where the radical theory comes in.

(5) I go to work with proper cleaning equipment and a range of products to ensure that I get the barrels clean because their accuracy most certainly has been degraded due to build up from shooting.

(6) Then I sleep peacefully knowing that my radical aproach has saved me endless dollars in needless barrel replacements.

(7) Combining all the above on a Friday evening leads to an inner peace that will allow me to enjoy my time at the range tomorrow with corespondingly more than acceptable groupings from my multi thousand "shot" barrels.


Like I say really radical thinking and I can understand if it does not catch on. Then again you never know future generations have been known to embrace radical thought from the past and incorperate it into mainstream life.

quote:

Originally posted by Hipster:
... (1) I stop on the way home from work and get a really really good bottle of single malt.

(2) I pour one on the rocks and sit back and reflect on the past day. ...

Single Malt? Sounds similar to Av-Gas.

Then dumping it on Rocks?

Being born in KY, it is only proper that I try to head you toward some good old Liquid Corn (aka Bourbon). Don't need any rocks, stones or pebbles to hassle with either.
-----

I do like to return my firearms to a pristine clean condition after use too. Now come to think of it, that Single Malt might have a use there.
-----

Some of the (bad influence type) folks strongly encouraged me to forgo the Armstrong Cleaning routine and try some of the "Foaming Bore Cleaner". I got a can (sold by Outers) and read up about it on the Gun Cleaning Board. Plus one of them said to just make a Patch Plug to stick into the Chamber "once" the Foam made it that far. (He said to keep it out of the Action.) Then lay the firearm on it's side and 30min later turn it over. Wait 30min more and just use a snug Patch to push the Foam and Residue out. Then lightly Lube the Bore.

So, I tried it and it did indeed "look like" the Bore was clean. And I looked as hard as I could with two different flashlights and an LED light - no sign of Copper or Powder.

It was like someone snuck in there and actually "cleaned the barrel" while I was waiting. Still waaaaaay too early to give it the Hot Core Seal-of-Approval though. Sample size is too small.
-----

Seems like shootaway has decided to just not shoot the 458Win. Soooo, the barrel should last a very long time.

quote:

On the subject of wisdom,the other day at the range I met a geezer with all the shooting attire who was just a JERK

Well after reading quite a few of your posts and seeing how you present yourself( here on some of the forums anyway). I have to reason in my own mind that if the older gentleman was rude to you or said something for you to consider him a jerk that you probably had it coming to you. I don't know what was said but I can imagine how you tried to enlighten him on your greatness and well on it goes from there.

Now there are quite a few older fellows that shoot at the same range as me a couple of these men are WW 2 vets in their 80's and quite a few are in their 60's. When they are talking about shooting,reloading,hunting and the like well I am all ears you might be suprised how much you can learn from guy's that were doing it a long time before you were.

quote:

Being born in KY, it is only proper that I try to head you toward some good old Liquid Corn (aka Bourbon). Don't need any rocks, stones or pebbles to hassle with either.

Now I have been known once and a while to get into " the corn squeezins" But alas it does strange things to my digestive system And let me tell you three fingers of good Bourbon is a "lovely drop" But the ring of fire is no joy on the following day.

Met a lovely gal in Louisville a good while back. Ky was part of my sales area them days and I met a lot of good people and had some great times at least what I can remember of them. Seems like a lifetime ago.

I never tried drinking corn.I should have tried it last night but I ordered Johnny Black instead.I must try to stay away from that stuff because when Johnny starts FLOWING the money keeps GOING!

Well I'm glad I'm not holding my breath for this test session.

But then I remember my own delays. Got the rifle but no ammo. Working through a dealer, who was keeping everyone at arms length, no doubt to disguise his "markup", I eventually arranged a meeting to buy some ammo off the previous owner.

It seemed to need to be on the edge of town, late at night, and when they showed up they had a small truck full of poddys. Well I hope they went to a good home. Haven't seen 'em since and not sure I want to.

Anyway got to shooting factory solids standing at close range (about 20 yards) at marks on dead trees and had a ball.

Later load development for max loads off a bench was NOT much fun at all. Even the by- standing tough guys declined to volenteer.
Lets hope shootaway is made of sturner stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
...Lets hope shootaway is made of sturner stuff.

Hey JAL, We can't even get him to fire it.

I may need to revive the old Bubba and Bubbetta "Lead Sled" stories.

Isn't she lovely?[URL= factory target[URL= ]a[/URL][URL= ]b[/URL][URL= ]c[/URL][URL= ]d[/URL]

Looks kind of HEAVY to me, but then I like light weight rifles.

Why's it shooting a Pattern rather than a Group? Barrel already worn out?

9lbs;2ounces without scope and rings.I weighed it on a bakers scale.Everything seems fine.I determined the distance to the rifling with a Sinclair tool and got an OAL to the rifling with the 500gr tsx of 4.1 inches and 3.92 with the 500gr A-frame.Coupled with a magazine that will allow bullets seated that far,the cases I loaded didn't have to be compressed.I will load a few more with the bullets seated out more.I might also try Reloader 7 because some one posted that their CZ shoots really accurate with.I will not bed it because I did not detect any movement if the action in the stock and because there is a screw that goes through the forearm and holds the barrel down.

Yes, but what caused the Pattern instead of a Group?

Sure looks similar to what you've been posting in multiple threads about barrel life being do short - TOTALLY SHOT OUT!

I am not sure what you are reffering to.The above group is a group that was shot by the rifle manufacturer.It was shot at 50 meters.There is no mention if a scope was used.Are you reffering to the above group as a pattern and not a group? It is not the best group,that's for sure.

Howdy..
I read through this, and I am shocked that not one hardcore bigbore shooter has keyed in.. you might want to repost this in bigbores.

here's some facts in relation to bigbores and cz's

cz bigbore rifles tend to shoot well. In fact, in the hands of an EXPERIENCED big bore shooter, they then to be under or just at MOA, for any distance you want to shoot them.

Not a SINGLE bigbore shooter has reported shooting out a cz550 or brno zkk602 barrel here on AR in the big bores. Not even the biggest blowhard obvious liar has said "i shot out omy barrel in my cz magnum"...

barrel burnout, in general, is in relation to being overbore and being agreesively shot while hot.. either and both are bad, together one can damage a barrel.
by overbore, .dia^2*1000=max case capacity to have "too much" capacity..

the 264 winchester is a classic and screaming example of overbore..
.264*.264*1000=69.696gr of water to be "bore"
the 264 is 80gr capacity, hugely overbore, and when loaded to factory pressure and shot rapidly (say 3-5 shots in 20 mins) rapdily errodes the bore/throat.

Now, back to "reality" of the 458.
.458*.458*1000=209.764gr...

while the 458 winmag is about 87gr.. in fact, is is LESS larger than the 264 than the 264 is overbore.

Which means that a 458winmag barrel, aabe, will last "forever" assuming the same barrel quaility and reasonable shooting speed


This sounds like your first 458, and you should have a ball with it... if your groups degrade over time, just clean the bore, and it should work fine!

BTW, for load dev (and someone might jump up and being a total jackass about this) a lead lead is a GREAT idea....

repost this in bigbores and have actual and experienced bigbore shooters give you feedback...
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
...Not a SINGLE bigbore shooter has reported shooting out a cz550 or brno zkk602 barrel here on AR in the big bores. Not even the biggest blowhard obvious liar has said "i shot out omy barrel in my cz magnum"...

barrel burnout, in general, is in relation to being overbore and being agreesively shot while hot.. either and both are bad, together one can damage a barrel.
by overbore, .dia^2*1000=max case capacity to have "too much" capacity..

the 264 winchester is a classic and screaming example of overbore..
.264*.264*1000=69.696gr of water to be "bore"
the 264 is 80gr capacity, hugely overbore, and when loaded to factory pressure and shot rapidly (say 3-5 shots in 20 mins) rapdily errodes the bore/throat....

Hey jeffe, If you would take a couple of minutes and do a search on "shootaway's" past posts, you might see something interesting concerning his thoughts on Barrel Life.

Hipster and I are having a bit of fun at shootaway's expense. There is not much seriousness in the thread by either of us.

But..., I can see how you would not understand we were just having fun. How's your Lead Sled doing?
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Hey shootaway, Yes, if I believed your past posts on Barrel Life, then those 3-shots just totally wasted the barrel. Obviously time for a new one.
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Hey Hipster, You got that barrel factory cranked up yet?

I remember once reading were a prestigious english gunmaker warned against the use of solids in their rifle barrels.He said they will erode the bore quickly.IMO,that is a concern when shooting monometal bullets.For super stablization of bullets,you need perfect rifling just in front of the bore and a bore which has very little erosion.Jeffeosso,can you move the thread over to big bore? Hot Core,just curious as to what you know about shooting at long distances with iron sights.I might take your advice and try not to use a scope at all.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
... Hot Core,just curious as to what you know about shooting at long distances with iron sights.I might take your advice and try not to use a scope at all.

Hey shootaway, Did a lot of shooting out to and including 500yd with Iron Sights back in the `60s and early `70s. But those were smaller cartridges than your 458Win.

As long as your eyes are good, you have good Range estimating ability and are familiar with the Drop Rate on the specific Cartridge(Bullet & Load)you are using, it isn't all that difficult. You just put in a lot of Trigger Time, and see what the Groups indicate as the distance increases. Same as a person does with any other rifle.

As a person puts in the Trigger Time, it seems like there are a couple of levels where it is difficult to enhance the accuracy. Some of it can be with the Load, but most often it is some small quirk in the Shooting Technique that needs to be figured out. Then more prectice to the next level, etc.

My eyes are old and a Scope is a nice benefit for me. But, I'm getting Loads developed for a Lever Action and "might" hunt with it some next year. But, due to my old eyes, the Game will need to be relatively close. Not sure how far I can shoot with it accurately yet, cause I'm just starting with it.

Nothing wrong with putting a scope on your rifle to develop the Loads, or to Hunt with. Just no need to "have to wait" on the Scope for a 458Win. Simply remember the distances a sane person would typically be taking shots at 458Win size Game and don't expect groups like a 30cal.

Thanks Hot Core! When I go out this weekend I'll have some boubon and raise a toast to you and however responded to this thread.BTW,I started testing the rifle and loads.I posted the results in the Big Bore forum.

quote:

Hey Hipster, You got that barrel factory cranked up yet?

No not yet my regular job keeps getting in the way, but a boy can dream can't he?
We are currently doing a tear down, strip out and international shipping of manufacturing equipment. You can imagine the logistics, grease, hydraulic oil and so on. Being short staffed currently I got to go back on the tools oh joy but it sure is helping the waist line.