Years ago, a custom cartridge company made some extraordinary loads for a particular rifle of mine. Now, that company is seeking bankruptcy protection and can not or does not communicate with its customers. I 've tried going through their lawyers, the bankruptcy trustee, etc. to see about obtaining/buying the formula -- no luck. So, I'm left with about ten rounds, and I want to find out what powder is in them. Is there a lab or something that will do this for me? Any other ideas?

Thanks in advance for any help.

You my friend have a problem. Can you provide a little more information? What calibre? What weight of bullet? What brand of bullet? Brand of case? Do you know someone who reloads that could pull a bullet and weigh the powder charge ? Is it a ball powderor stick type? Has any of these loads been chronograghed? This information is not likely going to determine the exact powder that was used but it will likely narrow things down to 2 or 3 possible powders. You could then get another custom loader to work up some test loads that would likely duplicate the original loads.

Snowman -- Your ideas are all good. IF I were to publish the cartridge, chrono data, etc. -- trust me -- a huge discussion would follow about whether the loads are safe and or whether I am accurately describing them. In fact, I did report on this load, years ago, when I was registered on this forum by a different name... and the discussion went on and on ... some of it fun and useful, some of it ignorant and inflamatory... but all of it interesting! Against my better judgment, however, I will risk this much info: The cartridge is .30-06. Bullets are moly coated, 180 gr Woodleighs. Remington brass. I don't know the primer. The powder is a medium to dark gray, short, stick powder. The cores of the granules appear lighter than the exterior. It appears similar to H4831-SC but a side by side comparison shows some slight difference in color and consistency of the actual cut. The charge was compressed and heavy. And the muzzle velocity from a premium 24 inch bbl was ... unbelievably (to many) fast as measured on multiple occasions in multiple conditions, by both an Oehler and a Chrony, and without any pressure signs, again measured by an Oehler and backed up by the usual physical observations, measured case heads, extraction, primer surface, etc.. It was very accurate, too, with five shot, 100 M groups consistently in the 3/4 inch range. So, I know this much: The powder is a short cut, extruded, multi-based, slow powder, that seems consistent in velocity/pressure across wide ambient temperature variations. I've used it from 95 + deg F to - 5 deg F. But I do not want to guess, of course. I'm hoping that there is a maybe a private laboratory or something out there who would agree to analyze powder samples and tell me what it is. Maybe, if we narrowed it down as you suggest, the potential manufacturers may agree to analyze it and say whether it is theirs or not.

I don't understand why your wasting your time?
Their are lots of powders that will produce sub moa groups in a 30-06.
Experiment, have fun, Shoot.

The short answer is, without a lab, you can't.

You can do as well with experimentation and Quick Load. There are a number of powders that will give you 2800 FPS with 180's at reasonable pressures. If you want more, buy the light magnum stuff.

No Plea From what you have now told us I would suggest that powder sounds like it could be RL19 ,Norma 204 or RL22. I would start by assembling all the components you have identified. I would then consult the RL19 load data and start loading some test loads. Start at their recommended start load and load one round and mark it.Increase one grain at a time and watch for signs of pressure .You will likely match your custom load pretty quickly

Not with anything from Alliant.

Go with Accurate Arms 4350.

Okay guys, what if its a duplex load or even a triplex??? As posted, he'd be better off starting with a clean slate and working up a load.

quote:

Originally posted by iwzbeeman:
Okay guys, what if its a duplex load or even a triplex??? As posted, he'd be better off starting with a clean slate and working up a load.

Right on, right on, right on.

Gidday Guys,

The easiest way to test the powder is to pull all the bullets and put all the powder on a Milo tin lid.

Take the lid complete with all powder on it outside and ignite it with a long match.

After all the wows have quietened down load up some 150 gr Nosler BTs with 52 gr IMR4064 and win primers and watch the 1 hole 5 shot groups appear on the paper.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

I agree with others that it will be easier to work up your own load. And don't overlook RE-7, IMR 3031 & 4064 when you do.
What is it that you think a lab can tell you? Most similar powders (like the IMR's for instance) are very much alike chemically. The pieces are cut to different lengths and may have more or less graphite on them to regulate the rate of burn. Analysis would show the same components in close enough ratios to make the results pretty much meaningless. Who says that they even used a canister grade powder? There is no guarantee that they didn't use a surplus powder and there's no way you could figure out what was used if they did.
You should have enough of what's left to get you through this fall, and by then you will have had more than enough time to find a load as accurate on your own.

I like the, Light a match to it, technique.

There is no way to find out what is in it.

what caliber and bullet? work up a new load

since there are some primers (Federal 416 comes to mind, or is it 415?) that aren't available to the public, one must assume the same thing could exist for powders. I don't think most experts could tell you with any confidence what it is, although they may be able to tell you what it isn't.

As Wink observes, non-cannister powders are routinely used in factories. If you find out what it is you may not be able to get it anyway.
As mentioned above, also duplexing is more often used than one would suspect.
An analysis would surely be costly.
If you chronograph and measure the pressure, you can work up a similar load.

I'd chronograph a few, and try some powder loads that matched that velocity....

I'd pull apart just one, to see what kind of volume it was.. strictly as a point of reference...if it was 52 grains and had a velocity of 2800 fps.. I'd start with that info on the load manual and see what I got...what powder gave me 2800 fps when using 52 grains of it.. it may not be the same powder, but if it matches the same accuracy.. you are in business.. or "close enough for government work"


as a few good people gave some good info.. don't try to figure out someone else's witches' brew...
cheers
seafire

Some ideas if you want to duplicate your load:

1. Give up on the powder I.D.
2. Get a good chronograph reading on several shots.
3. Primer may be able to be identified by it's parts after decapped.
4. Take every measurement of the loaded rounds you can, including bullet seating depth, etc.
5. Hit the reloading bench, match brass, primer, bullet, seating depth, neck tension, etc. Guessing the powder is all up to you.

If it were me, I'd either experiment myself with a new load or even try some factory ammo if you can't spend the time - you may be very surprised at what some of the factory ammo can do nowadays.

Good luck.

If it is single base stick powder, we might idenify it by size and shape.

But no matter what it is, I would just work up a load until the brass flow at the same powder weight as some known powder. That is how I figured out that AA#9 was the same as Ramshot Enforcer, before I read that fact.

Power Pistol and Bullseye look and smell the same. The difference can be found in the density.

doesnt all powder now contain taggants to identify manufacture ,date ,etc?certainly not cheap but possible

quote:

Originally posted by jb:
doesnt all powder now contain taggants to identify manufacture ,date ,etc?certainly not cheap but possible

no
the taggants would cause unacceptable liability to the makers by inconsistant volume of powder to taggants, and doesn't happen.

jeffe

It is said that taggants can be removed with a magnet. I have no idea if that is now true or if it ever was.