Can anyone point me to .45-70 loads using Win 748 powder and heavy cast bullets of, say, 500 grains?

I have a lot of that powder I want to use up and a friend has given me some gas-checked alloy bullets that average about 468 grains.

I say alloy because an earlier example from the same mould weighed 477 grains.

if the bullets lost weight they have a higher BHN.
tin and antimony are both quite a bit lighter than lead.

62-66 grs for a 405gr bullet with a magnum primer.
this is a Ruger number one load level.

748 does not reduce well without a filler, it just doesn't get it up into a decent burn zone and is erratic in it's velocity's.
I would drop back at least 8 grains if I were to try it with your heavier bullet.
and even there it would only be in the stouter rifles.

I looked in an older Winchester booklet I had. It did not list any 748 loads for a 45-70.

The closet cast bullet load was 405 grain, and the closest powder was Varget. The load shown was 50 grains of Varget at 20,000-23,000 CUP and 1700 fps for the 405 cast bullet.

It would be worth checking with Hodgdon ahead to see what they say is my best input.

Asking the same question two different places makes it harder to keep track of. You have another set of answers there too.
But as stated, 748 does not like low pressures. And cast bullets do not like high ones.
For here, Speer lists it with jacketed bullets.

not a great pairing, but it could work in a modern firearm. .. what gun are you shooting from?

i have run gas checked .510 bullets, hard cast, way way WAY over 2000fps .. clean the barrel first -- you don't want to have copper in the barrel before leading it up .. will cause cleaning issues later

Sorry guys, I put it in the lever action forum, too, because no one seemed to be responding here.

And I forgot the .45-70's trifurcated personality and to mention my rifle is a Miroku Win 86.

Thanks for your suggestions.

It's sounding as though I might have to keep the W748 for 405-grain bullets. I've got some RL-7 and can get AR2207 (H4198) if needed.

I haven't tried 748 with cast bullets but as stated above, my experience with it and reduced loads is not good. Years ago I made some reduced loads with 748 in a 308 Win with 180 gr bullets. the standard load was 46 grains. I reduced it to 30 grains and went to the range. Nearly every one of the five loads resulted in about 1/2 second between the click of the firing pin and the bang of the rifle. Later I read about "excursions" and such and never tried it again.

You might checkout some of the cast lead forums like Cast Boolits and the Lever action forums...there are TONS of reloading data for the heavy cast lead bullets. You might also find out the max length you can use with the bullets you have to see just what the max case volume could be.

I LIKE 748 for several calibers and cartridges but NOT for the 45 cal cases in the 45-70/etc volume range, i.e. ~75-80 gr.

I ran several test with bullet weights from 300-720 gr and cases from 45-70 to 45-120 in several lever and SS rifles, with AA2460, AA2495, AA2230 plus several in the mid range burn rate and AA2460 was the best as far accuracy/case life/velocity vs pressure goes with AA2495 a close second. I've also tried AA2460 with slightly turned down diameters to bore run to get max case volume up as high as possible with very good results but a ton of PITA.

There are several powders that will work but it depends on MANY various factors like barrel length, case volume and burn rate, but for run of the mill hunting/plinking loads I use the AA powders at whatever optimum COAL fits a particular rifle.

Benchrest, 8208, Varget, 4895 and X-terminator and several others in similar burn ranges surprisingly can give good results, you just have to test.

Good Hunting

Have done that, NONAGONAGIN, spending days gathering links to possible useful threads. I found no really seductive loads, though, and a friend has suggested I ask someone with Quickload to generate a load with the components I've got most of, hence my latest thread, named for that program.

Answers filed in the Big Bores forum's 458 Winchester Magnum thread will warm the cockles of RIP's heart, at least.

quote:

And I forgot the .45-70's trifurated personality and to mention my rifle is a Miroku Win 86.

Good luck getting it to shoot. Mine has a crooked chamber with a messed up throat. Someday I will throw the barrel away and replace it with a Green Mountain and a decent chamber/ throat. Only 300 grain jacketed shot halfway decent, use RL-7. Have fun.

Thanks Scota. So far mine seems OK but I haven't obsessed with grouping, just trying to evaluate pressures. It certainly has a short throat for some reason but some cast bullets seem to ride over the bore beyond the case mouth.

I don't suppose rechambering to .45-90 but with a longer throat would fix your barrel?

Sorry I didn't even spell my(?) made-up word properly. It was supposed to be trifurcated (cf bifurcated), a reference to its three reloading scales.

Ok, throats; Original 45-70, and SAAMI specs too, do not have throats at all. Just a little abrupt transition to the rifling at a 12 degree 45' angle.
Which is why bullets for them are bore sized or smaller in front of the case. Cutting a more modern angle/throat into it will help; I use a custom reamer with a 1 degree 30 minute angle, after .050 of leade. That makes it easier to mange cast bullets and it doesn't hurt jacketed either.
45-90? You don't need all that powder capacity using smokeless but I have that reamer too.

I used to worry about that throat, dpcd, but seem to have found two solutions: one is to use short Hornady cases and/or Lee factory crimp dies with the Woodleigh 405-grain bullets that had seemed to have cannelures too far back; the other is some donated cast bullets that have the long-but-small-diameter front section that rides over the rifling without touching it when chambered.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I used to worry about that throat, dpcd, but seem to have found two solutions: one is to use short Hornady cases and/or Lee factory crimp dies with the Woodleigh 405-grain bullets that had seemed to have cannelures too far back; the other is some donated cast bullets that have the long-but-small-diameter front section that rides over the rifling without touching it when chambered.

I'm looking to get mine running with some RL-7 and 405 gr. cast bullets. Have some of both but not put them together yet. From the research that I've done, it seems that 44 gr. of RL-7 is the max for lever actions.

That sounds fair advice to me Ske1eter. I have found loads heavier than that but pressure in backlockers is hard to assess.

Regarding those short Hornady cases I mentioned, I've found ordinary dies won't crimp them. You can send the Lee FCD back and get it shortened for $15 or you can back it out two or three turns and put a washer on top of the shellholder (or a smaller one). Tighten the die down gently until you get the crimp you want. The cartridge could fall out afterwards; if not, try a screwdriver tip above the rim.

Alternatively, you could file or angle-grind 1mm off the bottom of the die's collet insert, after which it will be too short for standard cases.

you can also just grind down the shell holder.

You must have missed Beartooths 525 gr WLNGC Pile Driver's article...WW 748 ISN'T mentioned but it falls withing the same burn rate as the ones that were used and VERY close to Ramshot TAC and X-Terminator and AA2230 in VMD and Density...I use a *475 gr GC/lubed, 1.24" RN* version cast by a local caster and a RN 620 gr commercial version I picked up somewhere I nose bob to flatten it out and get the weight down to 525-550 gr, plus the 525 Beartooth and 550 Crater(in the Past) a several of other bullet weights.

Did you read about Jae-Bok Young's 550 gr "Crater's"...don't know if he is still casting those...they were punishingly hurtful at BOTH ENDS in a light Marlin and even in my heavy 14# SS rifles.

There are 1000's of articles on the 45-70 and all kinds of bullet weights/powders but if you narrow your parameters to far you run out of choices, plus there are several mold makers that will custom make whatever design/weight you want...I have several from Accurate Molds in 45 and 50 cal.

I don't know just how wide your choices are down under in powders or import restrictions...we here are spoiled rotten with our wide range of "stuff" availability...but after umpteen years of mucking about in this game, very little stops me from getting what I want or going the distance to build, borrow or steal whatever is needed... ...even if I have to compromise a little...

Good Hunting

PS. I DON'T pass out load info from ANYWHERE including QL or my own rifle info, but using this bullet and WW748, 22" bbl Modified Marlin 336 loaded to 2.55" factory COAL, at 100% density QL shows ~34 KPSI/~1640 fs/2830 ft# which is below the MAX PRESSURE. (I have modified my Marlin to handle a 2.62" MAX coal with some bullet contours and rechambered to 458 Amer...but I can fire a 45-70 case also.(disregarding the minor case bulge. )

In your case WW748 and your single bullet weight might be just as good or better than the other alternatives...nothing wrong with a 100% load for certain and very little mucking about with load development.

Thanks NONA...
No, I haven't seen that article yet but it may not matter. You might recall, my main parameter is parsimony: someone gave me a tin of W748 and then an AR member gave me 100 cast bullets - a type I'd never used before.

Yes, we do have problems getting certain powders because the limited quantities needed here mean gazetted ships only sail intermittently. We do make some of America's favorites, though, and I did buy a container of AR2207 (H4198) last week to use with the 405-grain Woodleighs I've got.

And yes, Lamar, grinding down the shellholder should work - good if they are the cheapest component, as you would need another for resizing.

Parsimony is good for the one gun, one load shooter...not so good if you have more than one bullet weight.

For all intents and purposes 748 will produce enough velocity for 99% of all game with 300-500 gr bullets...what more can you ask. Cast lead bullets at even lower velos have been killing American Bison for how many years??? The internet is so full of horse pucky and keyboard hunters you can't even begin to figure out "Whatthehellandwhy".

Besides a 45 cal bullet weighing in at 405 gr and a sectional density of .276 will do a LOT of damage even at walking speeds.

The only way to optimize ANY reload is to do all the techie stuff and if you just want to burn up some powder and some bullets why even bother with the good stuff...just load up and go have fun.

I shoot 300-450 gr bullets( more 350-425 gr), cast and jacketed, in my ~80 gr volume cases i.e., 450 Marlin, 458 Amer and 45-70 and mostly 400-700 gr in my 45-90 thru 120 cases and 50 cals and optimize the COAL/throat length to a particular bullet weight, barrel length and powder. It's always gratifying to see the end result.

You should also take a look at the bullet weight/velo/energy curves. Many times going to a lighter bullet at a higher velo will give you MORE energy where it's needed.

Your logic makes sense to me, NONA... but older and wiser heads than mine think I need more horsepower.

Our critters are a bit smaller than your elk but seem to have low blood pressure and an ability to run though dead. However, an old 'hound hunter' I read reckoned even the .44-40 was OK on them out to 70 yards. Maybe he just used the hounds to follow them up.

More, more more...always someone THINKS you need an 8 gauge to kill a mouse.

Like I said QL or any of the other FREE online internal ballistic software programs will give you more of a realistic picture than someones "opinion"...I've killed more deer with a 22 LR than with all my other guns combined I think and I've know several "old timey" hunters that regularly killed their elk with 250 Sav, 243 Wins, 30-30's, 32 Specials, 25 Specials and 38 cal and larger PISTOLS to name a few and not to mention bows and arrows...they just didn't try to shoot across canyons to do it...some used factory and some used tailor made but MOST of them had elk rump roast after the hunt.

The pressure limit for the 336/1895 Marlins runs to slightly less the 52 KPSI in the 444 Marlin about the highest pressure I would shoot in that platform...I don't think anyone that has killed game with a 444 Marlin and 300+ gr bullets think they need more horsepower!!!...and if you do you might take a look at your situation to find where the problem lies...there is just so much BS floating around the 'net you can't keep above it with a rocket ship.

Your shooter and YOUR parameters...you keep changing...what do you REALLY want.

Several of my 450 Marlin 350 gr reloads, loaded to ~52 KPSI for My Marlin rifle run 2200 fs and ~3800 #ft...if that wont kill an Elk...NOTHING WILL... and my Browning BLR loaded to 62 KPSI...think ~2350 fs and 4250 #ft...and a 300 gr slug will do 2450+ fs and 4100 #ft in my Marlin and near 4600 #ft in my BLR...use the right powder and seating and the 45-70 will do the same.

I hardly load to those numbers because I DON'T need the slapping around I get with the light leverguns and because if I think I need more pizzas I just step up to a larger cal and a heavier rifle.

Enough of your fondling and playing... ...Go do some shooting, it's more fun.

Good Hunting

Can't be sure, NONA, but I think I've just been slapped around - without even going to the range

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Can anyone point me to .45-70 loads using Win 748 powder and heavy cast bullets of, say, 500 grains?

I have a lot of that powder I want to use up and a friend has given me some gas-checked alloy bullets that average about 468 grains.

I say alloy because an earlier example from the same mould weighed 477 grains.

It's many years since I loaded the 458 Win with 748/500 grain and Hornady and I think a compressed load from memory.

45/70 is a lot smaller but the 458 does have huge free bore.

But at a guess I think a full case of 748 in the 45/70.

Many years ago I mucked around with the 308 (a 1 in 12 twist Sako and 130 grain cast. I found for accuracy that within reason pressure was the key point rather than velocity. I could get good accuracy at much higher velocities with reduced loads of Reloader 7 than the fast Hercules powders lie 2400 and so on.

Since you have a big bunch of 748 and all the case bullets maybe buy a wad punch and 1/4" cork and experiment.

Hahahahahahaha...no, no, none of that, Hoss...just trying to understand WHAT your really want...parsimony with 748/500 gr or something else.

Like I said earlier...somewhere ...a 100% load of 748/500 gr bullet at 2.55"COAL will give you slightly less than 1500 fs and slightly more than 2400 #ft of energy...PLENTY ENOUGH FOR Elk sized animals within reasonable ranges...I just added what can be achieved by optimizing all the parameters...NOT...how or what you should be doing with YOUR shooters and components.

I don't post ANY OF MY loads because they are optimized for MY RIFLES and I have NO control over what someone will do with that specific information. My BLR is the only factory chambered rifle in this range of cases...all the rest have been fiddled, as have the loads. I DON'T advocate loading beyond SAAMI spec pressures/COALS etc in ANY RIFLE. All the info on velo on the various cases/bullet weights is BELOW SAMMI MAP for a specific caliber...BUT...only the 450 Marlin BLR is factory chambered, all the rest are custom chambers or costume case/COALS lengths and I use techniques specific to a TON of long and costly learning.

I have done the same as you only with IMR 4931 several years ago when I couldn't get powder of ANY type...I have a LARGE stock of that powder because that was the only powder available and I was buying it as soon as it hit the shelves, usually restricted to #1 at a time. I loaded case/calibers from 17 Rem(definitely slow) to my 50 cal wildcat(just as slow) but I kept on shooting just like that bunny. I have a good #30 left and I probably will croak before shooting all that up.

You(me) do what we have to do...to keep doing what we HAVE do.

Good Hunting

Thanks Mike and NONA...
my trouble at the mo is I haven't had time to test the cartridges I've already loaded.

I've found another problem with W748, though. Someone gave me an old Lee (Perfect?) powder measure. It works great after the thimble-like stuff I'd been using but, after switching to AR2207, I found minute quantities of W748 dropping into the pan on the upstroke. I pulled the whole thing to bits and cleaned out some of the fine ball powder from the central rotating bit.

Not wanting to have to unscrew the pivot mechanism all the time and risk putting it back wrong, I might keep this measure for course powders in future.

Now all loads were weighed after throwing and I doubt whether this could have substituted more than a quarter grain of W748 in the (modern) starting 46-grain load of AR2207 behind the 405 Woodleighs, but I'm wondering if it could be a problem.

Considering my discovery that over the years ADI has lifted their starting loads, anyway, is this likely to be problem that might require me to pull the bullets and dump the powder? Also, what does the brassy ball chain on that measure do?