I'm going to start some reloading and would like to copy some factory Hornady .223 loads. Does anybody know what powder it would be or how I could find out? I know it seems bassackwards to copy a factory load but they shoot 3/8" at 100yds out of my stock Stevens so I'm not going to complain.

The factory round is .223 with a 55 gr. V-Max.

Thanks

They do not use canister powders. None of the large OEM's do.

And it might change over time. I.e. the powder in last year's production may not be the same as next year's.

Just get the Hornady manual and try the different powders listed for the bullet your gun likes. Sometimes the bullet (or bullet weight) is more a factor than the powder.

LWD

Chronograph the load you like and use their bullet and your spent brass. Pick a powder that gives you the same velocity and fills the cartridge. There are several good powders for that weight range. Personally, I'd start with Varget.

call them and ask for load data on that.

Ammunition manufacturers typically use whatever powder is available from their suppliers that can reasonbly be adapted to a cartridge to meet the performance outcomes they specify. Usually, these are lots of powder which are made to the same basic specs as cannister powders, but which, upon testing, do not fall within the tolerances that the marketers of cannister powders require for a particular brand/number of propellant.

Further, ammunition companies prefer to use a powder which is among the fastest that will still perform within their velocity/pressure specifications since less of a faster-burning powder is required than of a slower-burning powder. This is simple economics in that most powder costs about the same per pound, and the manufacturer gets more rounds out of a faster powder than a slower powder. Therefore, most factory ammunition (excluding specialized "extra velocity" ammunition) is loaded to a relatively low loading density.

Place a factory cartridge near your ear (veteran shooters: turn up your hearing aide or use your "good" ear) and shake it. You'll almost invariably find that there is a lot of empty room left in the case due to the use of a smaller amount of faster powder.

Bottom line: You can't duplicate a factory load in terms of using identical components because the propellant is not likely identical t anything you can purchase. You might also be surprised to learn that the bullets loaded in "branded" ammunition from companies which also sell their bullets as reloading components sometimes vary considerably from those of the same weight and discription sold as retail components. Most often, this is found in the form of a cannelure which is not present on a retail component bullet, but there are frequently other differences, also.

Well don't be to sure of yourselves !. Ask Hornady for specifics of their .223 load of which you like !.

http://www.ammoland.com/2010/1...erevolution-powders/


http://www.hornady.com/contact_us

i seldom agree with doc .. in this case, i do

My first thought was to just ask Hornady but truthfully I didn't think they'de tell me. But I did go ahead and call them today and talked to a nice guy. He said that the powder is a non-canister Hodgdon Benchmark no.1 or no.2? He said it was Autralian and the number was AR32210. He was talking faster than I could write. Anyways, he said that the powder he would try is IMR 8208 XBR and start out at 25.1 gr., max of 25.8.

looky there.. direct answers.. mitch or ben?

I'm sure you've already considered purchasing a large of lot of those factory loads.

You're shooting a 3/8" group out of a 200 Stevens...with factory ammo??!!??
Wow! I've kicked the idea around of buying one to play with. You may have pushed me over the edge.

boss hoss:..
yes, some fractory ammo is loaded
with canister powder. this is the creedmoor 6.5
Current specifications for the
120-gr. A-MAX load are 44.5 grs.
of H4350 powder, a Fed. 210M
primer and 2.720" OAL for 3020
f.p.s. muzzle velocity. For the
140-gr. A-MAX, they are 41.9 grs.
of H4350, a Fed. 210M primer and
2.800" OAL for a muzzle velocity
of 2820 f.p.s. Velocities... [ copied & pasted from shooting times ]

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
looky there.. direct answers.. mitch or ben?

I forgot to get a name. It sounded like an older gentleman if that means anything.

quote:

Originally posted by gregintenn:
I'm sure you've already considered purchasing a large of lot of those factory loads.

You're shooting a 3/8" group out of a 200 Stevens...with factory ammo??!!??
Wow! I've kicked the idea around of buying one to play with. You may have pushed me over the edge.

I've thought about seeing if anybody would give be a break on a large lot of it but if I can replicate it I can cut the price considerably, even with new brass.

The only thing done to the gun is a Timney trigger set at about 2 lbs. Scope is a 3-9x40 Bushnell 3200. What was funny is when I told him that I really liked the factory ammo and what I was shooting he was almost exstatic.

The Stevens is what used to be a Savage before the Accu-Trigger and Accu-Stock options were added.

quote:

Originally posted by vines:
boss hoss:..
yes, some fractory ammo is loaded
with canister powder. this is the creedmoor 6.5
Current specifications for the
120-gr. A-MAX load are 44.5 grs.
of H4350 powder, a Fed. 210M
primer and 2.720" OAL for 3020
f.p.s. muzzle velocity. For the
140-gr. A-MAX, they are 41.9 grs.
of H4350, a Fed. 210M primer and
2.800" OAL for a muzzle velocity
of 2820 f.p.s. Velocities... [ copied & pasted from shooting times ]

Well you found one---as a rule and I have discussed this many times with different people from various manufacturers over the years. The OEM's will spec out, test, then load ammunition. The next year when they make another run they do the same thing again. Been that way for the 30 years I have been keeping up with it.

Called one of my friends at Hornady and this is a question they get all of the time - "how can I load my own ammo to get the performance you get" They do not use canister powders---NOT COST EFFECTIVE by any means. You would pay a lot more for ammunition if they did. Do the research and you will find out. I don’t read the rags anymore but can remember reading several articles in the past about how the ammunition manufacturers go about developing powder for a ammunition run.

BH is spot on. The cartridge making companies call up the powder making companies and sez, send me a couple of tons of powder kinda like XXXX. When it's delivered, the guys in the white coats check it out and figure out how much to use to get the desired results. That info is sent to the floor and that's what they use until it's time to make another call.
I haven't read this entire thread but I hope someone has said that trying to identify a powder by looking at it is a pretty dicey endeaver.

Just so we are all corerect here the term used by the ammo makers is "Green Powder". As beeman said that is exactly how it's done.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by AXEL19:
I know it seems bassackwards to copy a factory load but they shoot 3/8" at 100yds out of my stock Stevens so I'm not going to complain.

I'd buy every box with that lot number that you can find and keep the brass for later. You can re-invent the wheel, but why?

Yes it may break out to be a bit cheaper, but by saving the brass, you cut out that expense from the equation, and really, your time is worth something.

I have duplicated factory loads with my 300wm 180grn hornady @ 2960fps. But, those shells were closing in on $30 per 20.

quote:

AXEL19

Don't let some of these good folks fool you . What powder is used in US 5.56 M855 bullet is 56Gr ?. WC 844 or CMR 170 !.

PSI 52K lb 3250FPS Charge 28.5 26.5 respectively ; An it can also be IMR 8208m just needs to meet specs !!!.

The M755 uses HiSkor 700X ever hear of that powder ?. Most every shot gunner who's reloaded surely has !

How about M59 7.62 Machine gun round
WC 846 50K lb 2750 FPS FYI : measured at 78 Ft. from the muzzle !


IMR 4895

Small Arms Propellant
(.30 Caliber)
Single Base Extruded




WC is Olin Bulk powder normally destined for Military contract , Yet Winchester and others cross load data for Canister Powders ,Now don't they !!!.





Du Pont 16
(IMR 3031)




Du Pont 4350
( IMR 4350)


FYI ; Of interest for some of you


Generating Bulk Propellant From Download

With the exception of most small arms ammunition, when fixed rounds are demilitarized, the projectiles are usually pulled apart from the cartridge cases and the propellant inside is emptied into a large container—usually a fiber drum—that will hold from 50 to 100 pounds of propellant. A single demilitarization project may generate hundreds of drums of propellant, usually of many different lot numbers. Suddenly, propellant that has spent its entire life in a configuration that was considered inherently safe from the risk of autoignition is now bulk packaged and stored in a concentrated mass that may be sufficient to allow autoignition to occur. If unstable propellant is unknowingly packed into a bulk container, autoignition could occur within weeks or even days. Once a demilitarization job begins, there may not be time to prepare and ship a sample to the APSL and wait for the test result to know if unsafe material is being retained.

Military propellants are becoming increasingly valued as a commercially viable product. Unwanted propellants can be used as an ingredient in the manufacture of industrial blasting gels and slurries, remanufactured as smokeless powder for small arms, or processed into agricultural fertilizers. Even if the installation that is demilitarizing munitions has the capability and necessary environmental permits to burn the propellant (and many do not have them), propellants today have become a marketable commodity that can and should be recycled.

To retain the propellant or transfer it to a third party for recycling, the stability of the propellant needs to be determined. Shipping it to APSL is slow and expensive. Establishing a small propellant surveillance laboratory with HPLC capability at the installation level is not considered economically feasible or sustainable. We needed to find a better way.

Field-Portable Stability Test Capability

In the mid-1990s James Wheeler, then Associate Director for Demilitarization Technology and chair of the demilitarization subgroup of the Joint Ordnance Commanders Group, requested proposals for designing and building a field-portable propellant stability tester. He envisioned an easy-to-use device or kit that could be carried by one person, moved to wherever propellant is located, operated by existing ammunition logistics or surveillance personnel with minimum training, and, most importantly, produce real-time results considered safe and accurate. Jim Wheeler’s vision resulted in the development of two propellant stability field test kits: the ammunition peculiar equipment (APE) 1995 near infrared (NIR) propellant stability analyzer and the thin-layer chromatography (TLC) propellant stability test kit.

Both of these test sets are capable of providing qualitative data to determine safe stability levels for the storage, transport, or ownership transfer of nitrocellulose-based propellants. Although RES levels are identified by each test and may be expressed quantitatively in terms of percentage of RES by weight, the test results are used in more of a “go/no-go” fashion. The “no-go” RES level for both test sets is considerably higher than the level that we use to identify propellants as stability category D (less than 0.20 percent RES) and is higher than the level for minimum stability category C (less than 0.30 percent RES). Using a higher level of stability (between 0.35 percent and 0.45 percent RES) as a cutoff for our field test sets gives us a greater margin of safety. Propellants that test at or below the cutoff levels will be either demilitarized or sent to the APSL for a HPLC test.

This is also known as Field Assessment ABC's

For those of you who didn't know ;


The advantages of ball powder over other types of smokeless powder are many. For one, it takes a lot less time to manufacture than other types. Most other smokeless powders take a few months to manufacture. Dupont did manage to get one IMR powder type to be manufactured in 2 weeks. In contrast, one production lot of ball powder could be made in under two days. Ball powder can also be stored longer than other types. Excess acids during the manufacture of smokeless powder cause the powder to deteriorate more quickly. The ball powder manufacturing process is more efficient in eliminating most of the excess acid and it doesn't produce much acid as it ages either. The manufacturing process is also safer as it happens under water and also requires much less specialized equipment to set up a manufacturing line.


( NEVER EVER ATTEMPT TO LOAD ANY OF THESE !!!!!!!! IT"S SIMPLY FOR DISCUSSION ONLY !!! )

The bottom line is NO ONE can be absolutely sure of what's in what , UNLESS you disassemble a factory cartridge . DoD FBI ATF all have samples of EVERY known powder manufactured . FYI ;Bulk is simply that with a slightly different tracer added to a standardized Canister powder . Don't complicate the world with theory , cartridge manufactures don't necessarily manufacture powders ,an powder manufactures are in the business of SELLING POWDERS ; Too Whom Ever they can !!!.

PS: Tracing elements are required for tracking purposes and every powder has a different trace !!!.

Oh i forget to mention the NEW CHANGE.

120gr Load Changed to Reduce Pressure
Hornady sells two types of 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition, one loaded with 140gr Amax bullets and a second loaded with 120gr Amax bullets. Hornady has changed the 120gr load because there were some reports of pressure issues — stiff bolt lift and primer cratering — with the “first generation” load. The new load for the 120-grainers uses 40.3 grains of Hodgdon Varget. Previously Hornady was pushing the 120s with 44.5 grains of Hodgdon H4350. The old load was rated at 3020 fps from a 28″ barrel. According to Hornady, the new 120gr Varget load “sacrifices about 75 fps”, which means the Varget load should offer about 2945 fps velocity.

New 120gr Load Accurate and Easy on the Shoulder
Dennis DeMille recently tested the new 120gr 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition at the Camp Pendleton range. He tells us: “At 200 and 300 yards, this Varget 120gr load gives up nothing in accuracy to the previous 120gr ammunition. Shooting prone with iron sights, I was able to shoot ‘cleans’ at 200 rapid-fire. The new load is easier on the shoulder too. The 75fps reduction in velocity reduces recoil considerably. The reduced kick was pretty noticeable.”

Dennis also told us: “The new 120gr (Varget-loaded) ammo had exactly the same point of impact at 300 yards as the 140gr loaded ammo. The zero was pretty much identical at this distance.”

The SUPERFORMANCE line from hornady sells the same powder in a canister that they use to load in the factory..[ MIDSOUTH SHOOTERS SUPPLY ] was selling this powder..