The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading The 308 or the 30-06, which one and why?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I have been very recently loading and testing for a couple of bolt-guns in these calibers and after doing my tests, I think my opinion has changed. Before running these tests I always thought that they were pretty much equal until bullet weights got up to at least 180 grs. Then the 30-06 begins to pull ahead. What I found in my (admittedly limited) testing is that the 30-06 was ahead of the 308 with all bullets I tested including 150's, 165's, and 180's when optimal powders were used. The powders I tested included H-4895, Varget, and H-4350. The bullets tested were Hornady Spire Points. With the slower H-4350, the 30-06 was ahead with top loads by 120 to 150 fps. This was with both rifles having 22" barrels. With Varget, they were closer together typically within 50 fps. With H-4895, the 30-06 was ahead with the 150's and about even with the 165's and 180's. I guess this is just stating the obvious to most of you here that the greater capacity of the 30-06 and its ability to use the slower H-4350 allows it to pull ahead. I know this is a limited test and other rifles may give different results. I used a Ruger M-77 308 and a M-1903 Springfield (in 30-06 of course). What have you guys found in your years of shooting various 308's and 30-06's. How to they match up in the real world? Which is the more versatile to have in you gun rack? Before I would have expressed my leaning towards the 308 for general use. Now I am leaning back towards the 30-06 and its greater case capacity. Thanks, Mark in GA | ||
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Loaded to the same pressures a bigger case = more power & speed. Pick up a 300/378, it holds true there also. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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There is not one game aniimal in GA or anywhere else in the lower 48 that will ever know the difference between the two. I prefer the .308 cause I like short action guns......TEHO | |||
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Mark - While both cartidges are much alike, the 30/06 has kept evolving over the years because of new powders, rifles, and bullets that have fully utilized the case capacity of the cartridge. Initially the 30/06 loading used a 152gr bullet at 2700fps, which can be equalled by the .300 Savage. Now, the '06 can be safely loaded with a 180gr bullet to 2800fps (Barnes says 2900+ with the VLX). As you stated, the larger capacity is demonstative of the difference between cartidges of the same caliber whether they be a .308 Winchester, 30/06, or .300 WinMag. The .308 Win was loaded right near the "top" from the "get go", so one can't improve on the ballistics by much. However, it does have a stroger case at the "web", for it was designed for a semi-auto rifle ("slamamatic") where the 30/06 was designed for a bolt. The choice of caliber can be narrowed down to the type of rifle you like and the type of hunting you do. Any .308 can be made lighter than a 30/06 and if left at the same weight recoils less. The 30/06 can fire the heavier bullets noticeably faster if you shoot at longer range or need a heavier bullet on really big game. The .308 seems to be the more accurate round, but the .30/06 in some rifles can match it. Like the available .30 Magnums, you can gain a few yards, and drive the bullet to bullet fallure that will eventually require you to buy "premium" bullets. However, if you hunt within 300 yards of your game you'll not notice enough difference between the two. Buy both in two different types of rifles, I did and my pump .308 will shoot pretty darn close to my bolt action .30/06. Regards - Mags | |||
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I guess, my thoughts are kind of becoming centered on the concept of versatility. Around here in costal Georgia the 308 will pretty much handle everything. But in the back of my mind is always my desire to go out west on day. I realize that many folks would say I should just buy another rifle to out West later. But, my funds are somewhat limited. I would rather have one nice rifle that can do pretty much anything that 2 or 3 rifles of the cheaper variety could when they are specialized. With one good rifle I can tailor my handloads to the specialized uses at will. The 308 was my initial choice, but after working some with the 30-06, I think it might be better (more versatile) overall. The 300 magnums are generally too much of a good thing around here. And, I don't believe they can be downloaded as easily as the 30-06 class case can either. I want a rifle I can download and maintain accuracy, packs enough punch for nearlly all North American medium and big game, and isn't too rough in the recoil dept for regular practice. The above criteria keep leading me to the old 30-06. Thanks, Mark in GA | |||
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For a hunting rifle, I think the .30-06 is the way to go. -Bob F. | |||
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If you are going to run one rifle then go with the biggest one that you can shoot comfortably. Paraphrasing another AC'ers signature: You can always load big guns down but you can't always load little guns up. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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For me, it would boil down to bullet weight. If I wanted to shoot anything heavier than 165/8 grains, it would be in a .30-06, hands down. Otherwise, a .308 would fit the bill for me. Even still, I'd probably go with the .30-06. RSY The real work of men was hunting meat. The invention of agriculture was a giant step in the wrong direction, leading to serfdom, cities, and empire. From a race of hunters, artists, warriors, and tamers of horses, we degraded ourselves to what we are now: clerks, functionaries, laborers, entertainers, processors of information. - Edward Abbey | |||
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Why not a 300 Win Mag? Same length action as the 30-06, better velocity with bigger bullets, somewhat flatter trajectory for longer shots, never a problem with legality in any country in the world where rifles are allowed for hunting (both the 308 and 30-06 are considered "military" calibers by a number of countries)but you should go with a 26" barrel to obtain the velocity advantages. It's a world wide caliber. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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At similar pressures with optimal powders, the .308 is about 200 fps behind the .30-06 with most bullet weights. The fact that most factory loads only run 100 or so fps apart is relavent only to non-handloaders. The .308, although an excellent game cartridge, provides a little less range and power than the '06. For Hill Country whitetails, I'd just as soon if not rather have the .308. For a 300 yard shot on a Rocky Mountain elk, the '06 is the better choice hands down. | |||
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For hunting the '06. For target, .308. Swift, Silent, & Friendly | |||
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I don't think anyone will claim the .308 is faster then the 30-06. From barrels of the same length, the .308 will be 100-150 fps slower on bullet weights up to 180 grs, and with 220 gr bullets, down 200 fps. That's not bad performance when you consider the .308 is burning about 85% of the powder that the -06 is, and hence is producing milder recoil. I guess I'll be the loan fan of the .308  I've had a Ruger ultralight .308 for several years, and have grown quite fond of it. With it's 20" skinny barrel, it is noteably lighter than your typical 30-06. Yes, it's slower then a 30-06, 150's @ 2800 and change, 165's 2700-2750, and 180's @ 2600 fps. I've shot 110, 125, 165, 180 and 220 gr bullets, and it's been capable of grouping 3 into 1" at 100 yds with every single one of them, and some it'll print into 1/2". That's from an admintingly sloppy factory chamber, fl sized brass and thrown powder charges. I'm sure with a tuned action, match barrel and br dies, I could do better My thought is, anything that I find the 308 lacking for, will be much better handled by a 300 win mag then a 30-06. In the same rifle package that will handle an -06, I can get 200 fps more with the win mag. If I want a svelter package then the -06 rifle, then I can drop down to the .308 and only loose about 150 fps, or I could also go with the 300 wsm and have the best of both worlds  For most of us, a range of 300 yds and game up to 600#'s is what we hunt, and a .308 launching a 165 gr pill at 2750 will work everytime the hunter can place his shot. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Actually the 7.62 NATO is a flawed compromised forced by the US Army's Ordnance Department of the late 50s on the rest of NATO. The Wehrmacht realized that the battle rifle model (k98, M1, SMLE) was no longer relevant to highly mobile tactics that dominated almost all of WW2 and developed what was to become the definitive blueprint for all military rifles since: the Sturmgewehr 44 and its ammo concept (7.92X33). The British and the Belgians did see the future and concieved what would probably still be today the gold standard of Western military rifles and ammo. The British developed a 7X43 mm medium power cartridge to go with their failed bullpup attempt. The Belgians developed the Fusil Automatique Leger, initially in the UK's 7X43 caliber. Our Army, back then always fighting the last war, refused to apply the lessons of WW2 infantry combat to their next generation rifle and cartridge. Instead, the rifle selection tests gave the nod to the M14 (a rehashed M1) and to a shortened 30-06 (308 Winchester). In all reality, the M14 may still be our issue infantry rifle if we had adopted the British 7 mm medium power cartridge, instead of the battle rifle sized 7.62 NATO. Even better, we should have just adopted the FAL as well, and obtained ture interoperability with our NATO allies. I do have to wonder, if the 30-06 is superior to the 308, why did the 308 displace the 30-06 as the cartridge of choice for both NRA Conventional Highpower and NRA Long Range from the mid 60s to the early 90s? | |||
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HP Shooter, Why was the 30.06 replaced by the .308 in the shoots? I don't know. However, it's been proven over time that the smaller caliber, by virture of less recoil, will tend to be more accurate. More comfortable the shooter, less tense, smoother shooting. As you well know, after 88 rounds of the BB guns (AR 15s shooting 5.56MM) versus the M1 Garand 30.06, the recoil is noticeable. For some who are recoil sensitive, less is actually more fore the shot will be better placed. I shot the MlA (.308 caliber) in High Power Shooting and found it very acceptable. My scores usually did not reflect it though.  My M1 Garand on the other hand, just isn't as easy or quick for target re-acquisition as the .308. But for a choice between the twixt I'd opt for the 30.06. And, make the first shot count. Good shooting! MikeFourTails | |||
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Didn't someone once say that most hunters begin with the 30/06, then are led astray by the lure of magnums and other bigbores only to return to the 30/06? After 16 years I'm approaching that exact point. Started with a Brno 30/06 and I think I'll put together a ZG47 in 30/06 as my all-round hunting rifle. In my mind I prefer the 30/06 for its versatility should I ever feel the need to use a 200gr Nosler Partition or 220gr Woodleigh at a respectable velocity. Cheers... Con | |||
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To me it's not a question of which case----its a question of what gun comes with the case. I hunt brush here in Wisconsin and love my browning .308 BLR and BAR. They are lighter, shorter barreled etc than the same guns in '06. NO deer here will know the difference. But if I go to Alaska on a carribou hunt I like the "pointability" of the longer action guns. I put higher powered scopes on the long actions and when they are on my backpack I couldn't tell the difference between the two gun styles. I guess what I'm saying is I like to pick the gun I want and then the caliber last. | |||
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as long as deer are the target it don't make any difference....but when one wants to shoot the 200 grain bullets the .30-06 shines brighter.....for plains game the .30-06 is a better choice.....ditto for elk, moose, and other truly big game. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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There's one of the reasons why the 308 replaced the 30-06 on the line. It's also one of the reasons why I replaced my main hunting rifle from a 30-06 to a 6.5X55. | |||
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| <allen day> |
HP, the answer is that there's a big difference between punching paper and shooting big game animals. As far as hunting goes, the .30-06 will do all that a .308 Win. will, and then some. AD | ||
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I also think it comes down to the rifle you want. If you like smaller, lighter rigs, then get the .308. If I was only to get one rifle for all of my NA hunting, it would be an 06. I don't own one, but it's what I bought for my son to hunt with. 150gr-220gr pretty much covers even te big bears in a pinch. The .308 can't really do it. I have several rifles which is why I don't have a .30, too many other choices.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I have to admit, up front, that I didn't read all the posts, I got through about 4 or 5 and went directly to the reply option. Not being a hunter, I can't really comment from that standpoint. However, after firing 10s of thousands of rounds in load development, testing and experimenting, I CAN say that the '06 has more potential and flexibility than the .308. There is more load data available for the '06 than any other caliber in any data manual. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. | |||
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If you are worried about coming out here to shoot deer or elk with a 308, don't be. Yeah, the 30-06 would be my first choice, but if you select premium bullets appropriate to the velocity you are going to shoot, then the 308 will work well. It would be a better investment to spend the money you will save by not buying another rifle and spend it on ammo to practice with. A 308 shot accurately will always be wiser than a 30-06 with little practice. Most of the time my shots at deer and elk are in the 25 to 150 yard range. A few were out to 300 yards, but very few. I prefer to get closer rather than blast away from a long distance. I have a short barrel 308 that I use on elk when I go into the thick pole thickets. All my living kin are in Savannah and Atlanta. RELOAD - ITS FUN! | |||
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Jack O'Connor in his book The Hunting Rifle summed it up along the same lines I think. The beauty of the .308 is the short action ie better adapted to actions OTHER than bolt. If going with a bolt action,there is no good reason to get the .308 over the 30-06. Either one will work fine on North American game. If you feel you need more,my opinion is go to a bigger bore not a faster .30.. Someone asked why not a .300 mag? In my books why not, is the gain(which some classify as HUGE and earth shattering--I don't consider it such--I know 200fps etc etc etc)has the price of about half again as much powder to get there. To me it's not worth the added blast and recoil. One of my son in laws summed it up nicely by saying a fellow can brag on whatever he wants,knock whatever he wants,but if he happens to knock the 30-06 a big flashing light that says IDIOT appears on that persons forehead. | |||
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Any way isn't the .308 usually heaps more accurate than the 30/06 all things equal ?? | |||
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I'll pitch in with a different angle. I didn't buy my .308 because of the caliber, or even because I particularly needed another rifle - I just fell in love with the little Frankonia Mauser when first I set eyes on it. I started off loading 200gr bonded core bullets to around 2280fps. In the (South African) bushveld where I hunt, this is not a problem, as 150 yards is a long shot. Well, it has POLEAXED everything I or anyone else has shot with it, including a 1000lb Eland. Those 200gr bullets became erratic to obtain, so I'm now developing loads with a 180gr solid shank bonded core. I'm getting over 2500fps at this stage, but will probably settle in the 2400-2450fps bracket, to keep the recoil down. And this brings me to the point - my .308 is mostly used by my girlfriend (I have to pry it from her clenched fists to clean it). The rifle is just so light and dinky. It's a pleasure to carry all day long, handles like a dream and hits plenty hard enough for anything I want to shoot with it (If I really need a big whack, I simply use my .375). In fact, with said lass around, my .375 is all I ever get to use  Several young kids who have used my .308 are also very comfortable with it.Therein lies the charm of the .308 to me - I really look forward to hunting with it from time to time (need to make sure that the good lady stays home, though), she really enjoys it, and it just plain WORKS. My 2c, without knocking the venerable old '06. | |||
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Guys the whole thing revolves around you definition of "difference"...I happen to think 125 fps is nothing in practical terms. You also have to consider distance...not a whole lot of shots taken beyond 250 yds. This is kinda like a ginger vs maryann arguement Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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A well placed shot with a 308 Winchester will kill any animal on earth that a 30-06 is capable of killing. All that is needed is a 180 grain Partition or similar. | |||
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How about that?!?! | |||
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| <allen day> |
Now that we have that question resolved, I guess all of us that shoot .30-06s and .300s had better trade 'em in on .308s......... AD | ||
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Do whatever floats your boat. I'm quickly finding out that you do not have much room for others' experiences and positions if they don't square with yours. I find that conversing with people like that is usually a waste of time. Good day.  | |||
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| <allen day> |
It sounds like the same can be said of you. AD | ||
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I started with a Remington 30-06 went to a Winchester 7rem mag, now I shoot a Remington 300 Win Mag. Do I need that much power probably not, but I can down load it. I know that it burns more powder than a 308 or a 30-06 but my dad always told me buy the best gun I can afford get use to trigger action and safety. 308, 30-06 or 300 Win Mag decisions are hard to make. I also have a TC Encore and can't figure which barrel to put on it. If I could only follow dads advice things would be so much easier. Good luck and enjoy shooting whatever caliber you choose to use. It ain't the hunt its the time spent with my dad and friends in the great outdoors that counts. Swede --------------------------------------------------------- NRA Life Member | |||
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Swede44Mag--You dont need that much powder and can always download a .300mag-----The Hornaday Handbook 3rd edition contains the warning "Reduced loads with slow burning powder can produce dangerous hangfires and large muzzle flashes". I dont know how much downloading before this might happen,but will say their starting loads are well above powder loads for a 30-06. Enough so that to me any gain is negated. | |||
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I'll put in my .02 worth (that's about all it's worth) and say, get both. No need depriving yourself. I have both. Back to the still. Spelling, I don't need no stinkin spelling The older I get, the better I was. | |||
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If that's what you care about, then I recommend something different from either the 30-06 or the .308, namely the 7X57. The only disadvantage in it is that it's almost entirely a handloading proposition because so few factory rounds are available for it. But, given reasonable distances and accurate shooting with appropriate bullets, it is adequate for anything in North America except maybe the biggest bears and possibly big moose. "How's that whole 'hopey-changey' thing working out for ya?" | |||
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I have both. A pre'64 featherweight 308 with a Leupold 2-7, the '06 is a Remington 700 with a nice classic stock, Pac-Nor barrel, and 3-9 Leupold. Both are very nice rifles. The Remington is a little longer and heavier. The accuracy is the comprable between the two. If you had to make me choose I would keep the Winchester. If the Winchester was in '06 I would keep it. That is based on how quick the rifles handle and not on the cartridges. Comparing the cartridges, 308 is a bit more accurate but, not enough so to worry about in a hunting rifle. Power, I do not think you would ever see a difference in hunting big game. If you wanted a little extra punch, buy some light mag ammo. If I really needed more poop for really large stuff I would step up to a significantly larger rifle and cartridge. Something like a 375 H/H or larger. I do not think you will see any practical difference shooting a bullet in the 100 to 180 grain range, launched at 2600 to 3000 fps, regardless of the cartridge. If you place your shot well the buck will expire quickly. If you get much slower trajactory is not flat enough. If you get faster bullet construction gets critical. 120 to 165 grain bullets launched at 2800 fps., give or take, is a formula for success. You get low recoil, flat trajectory, and good terminal performance. | |||
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Chances are it will never happen, but I can imagine hunting scenarios where you would say later "I'm glad I had my 30-06 instead of my 308." I can not imagine a scenario where the opposite would be true. MHO ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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If I lived east of the Mississippi and primarily hunted Whitetail's the 308 would be my choice, no question. Here in the West where elk are on the menu and grizzlies roam at will I'd always choose the 30-06... it's a bigger engine.  | |||
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I cannot imagine how there could be this much conversion over the difference between a .308 and a 30-06...there is so little practical difference in the field, even with 220 gr. bullets there is not enough difference to see any different reaction on game shot...I shoot both and one is as good as the other IMO..... There is no difference in a 220 gr. bullet at 2100 or 2400 on game....With 150 gr. bullet 2850 and 3000 are the same on an animal... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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