The Score High Gunsmithing .338 Lapua Mag build is drill.

Ran an Audette with the 250 grain Lapua Scenar, Hodgdon US-869 from 104.1 grains to the max of 108 and shot it at 330 yards today.











This rifle is good.

It seemed that it really didn't care how much powder was in the case, it was gonna shoot them all in about the same place. At the starting load, 104.1 grains, it put them in the same big hole at 100 yards when getting a -0-. I stopped shooting the ladder when it started throwing them around a bit (9,10,11) at around 106.9 grains. I chose shots 6,7,8,9 for a node and loaded 106 grains and shot 3. No Bueno. Too much vertical so I went back to the ladder and chose shots 1,2,3,4 and loaded 104.5 grains.

Shot this 330 yard five consecutive shot group with no barrel cooling..........






It measures 1.650" center to center; .5MOA.

It seems when you find a node, the shots in it are very close in velocity. It kind of stalls out for 3 or 4 shots even though each consecutive case has more powder.






It was fun. Audette's daughter is still very attractive.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Ran an Audette with the 250 grain Lapua Scenar, Hodgdon US-869 from 104.1 grains to the max of 108 ...
it really didn't care how much powder was in the case, it was gonna shoot them all in about the same place.

So, being uncertain of this method, what did you learn and how did you choose a load that wasn't in the ladder?

Well, it's educated from experience "reading of the tea leaves" as woods "wood" say........


First of all, the load I chose is "within" the ladder.

I started at 104.1 gr. and worked up to 108 gr. in .3 grain increments. One cartridge at each charge shot at the same point of aim. What you are looking for are consecutive shots that seem to group or at least have 0 vertical dispersion.

You are looking for a node; a charge weight range which makes the bullet exit when the barrel is pointing in the same place (thus, having the same virtual POI). This will usually be a place where the barrel is reaching its upward swing. Barrel harmonics. If you think about it with common sense, when the barrel is reaching the point of its uppermost swing before it starts down, it is traveling the least distance and staying at that point for the longest time (probably milliseconds) therefore is pointing in the same place longer giving the most accuracy (consistant POI because of the length of time it is pointing in the same spot and moving very little).


If you read the leaves like I did, you will see a really good "group" of consecutive shots 6, 7, 8, and 9. No vertical to speak of and a 1" "group" (it's not a group because each cartridge was loaded .3 gr apart). Load 6 was at 105.6 and load 9 was at 106.5. I identified this string as a node and loaded some test loads right in the middle; 106 grains. This is the choice because of the virtual same POI of all the charges above and below. From experience, I would have bet the house that this was the best long range load. I loaded 5, shot 3 and they vertically strung about 5" at 330 which sucks. It was later in the day and the velocity had bumped up because of temperature by about 50 fps from what was recorded at those weights in the morning.

I went back to the ladder and took a look at shots 1, 2, 3, and 4 which showed climbing with velocity and resulted in 3 and 4 shooting in the same hole at the top of the target. The barrel was at the top of its swing pointing in a static spot when the bullets exited the barrel. I loaded in the middle of those 4 shots then immediately shot the group you see at 104.5 grains.

I've posted before questions about temperature swings and accuracy. Temperature effects velocity, which effects bullet exit times, which effects accuracy. There are no two ways about it. I believe you need to develop the load in conditions as close to which you intend to use the load.

The Audette's Ladder identifies barrel accuracy nodes FOR LONG RANGE LOADS.

I couldn't care less if my LONG RANGE RIFLE shoots one hole groups at 100 yards. It will never be used at that range and if it is and it shoots MOA groups it will still not miss what I am shooting at. I have noticed from experience that the BEST LONG RANGE LOAD IS NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST 100 YARD LOAD. In two of my rifles I use for competition, the best 100 yard, ragged hole group load is about .5 grains LESS than the best long range load!

Creighton Audette finds the accuracy node/harmonic that gives the LEAST VERTICAL DISPERSION AT LONG RANGE. Windage is all that is necessary to judge!

IMO (how's that woods?!) shooting groups at 100 yards to find accuracy is the Stone Age of Long Range Load Development.

Let me start with I'm a Service Rifle shooter getting into long range so my loading methods are growing.
I'm not familiar with the .338 but with the powder charges used your variation was on the order of 3.8%. Thats about the same as running from 24 to 24.9 grains in a .223. From what I've read an accuracy node can be that big. Loads 1-4 were 3025 fps as were your 104.5 grain loads.
Were the velocities on the rest of the loads in your first test similar? Did the 106 grain loads have a a constant velocity or a wide spread? I guess I'm boiling down to would two similar powders, say Varget and RE15, have a node at the same velocity or would there be different nodes for each powder because of differences in when the pressure spike occures?

I'm with Sam, you should have started lower and put more variance between loads. With that being said the 869 in the Lapua has a narrow window from 101.5 to 108 gr. But you could try starting at the 101.5 and going up in .5 gr increments for an Audette of 14 shots. And I would increase the distance in order to get more vertical dispersion, go to 500 yards.

Sorry rc, but I just can't see any results from your Audette except that you have a rifle that pretty much likes anything you shoot through it. There is not even a steady progression upward.

I just typed a long reply and lost it! It was good! I'm pissed!

Without going as in depth as I did:

.5 gr increments would work fine with a case of this capacity. Some say once you find the node, shoot another Audette with .1 grain increments to fine tune. Too Anal My choice of .3 was kinda like a fine tune.

IME, not all higher velocity shots impact higher. Ask Jeffeosso...look at shot 10 and 11 on the ladder. The barrel must have been moving very quickly in transition from bottom of swing to top.

The results of the ladder were good; I got lucky with my choice of start loads as they were in the accuracy node.

Sam, all powders have a different effect on barrel harmonics so you can't just load to the velocity of a previously accurate load with a new powder. The powder is a component. Changing it is like changing the bullet and will require new development.


woods, the BWADT 100 yard load development works pretty well and sometimes even comes up with a load that works well at longer ranges but the long range guys do it the right way:

Long Range Load Developnment

This is pretty good too

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I just typed a long reply and lost it! It was good! I'm pissed!

Sam, all powders have a different effect on barrel harmonics so you can't just load to the velocity of a previously accurate load with a new powder. The powder is a component. Changing it is like changing the bullet and will require new development.

I hate it when that happens.

I was kinda thinking that but wanted to make sure. I though the gas volume, temperature, pressure combination would throw off just picking based on the same velocity as charge weight and gas volume(weight) are variables in figuring recoil.

I think people are seeing patterns where there are none.

woods, I know you've been wondering what I see in Audette's daughter.


You know, there's someone for everybody and I have told you how I feel about her. She's everything I hoped for and since I've found her, I'll never stray. She makes all the others pale in comparison.



I know you don't feel the same way about her as I do and that's fine. I think she may be my soul mate.


Maybe if I show you her picture you'll understand?...................







I know some may be disgusted but I can't go on pretending anymore!



By the way, I found a relative of the BWADT 100 yard load development pioneer!.............

I see it! I see it! It's becoming clearer in my Crystal Ball!




Hey rc, buddy, give us something to work with. IMO you are all over the place with trying to intrepret the target posted above. Wish it weren't so. Would prefer to agree with you.

Now the targets on the links you provided do show something to interpret.

BTW, I have shot one time at 100 yards in the last 3 years and that was because the long ranges were closed.

I was under the impression that Audette's daughter looked like this


a real Turkey!

Ha!

id like to throw a question in here while yall are on this subject. i loaded up some 270wsm rounds started at the book minimum and loaded in progression up to max in .5g increments. i only have access to a 100yd range and plan to shoot them next weekend to hopefully find a load for my rifle. do yall think i will be able to find a load at this distance? i know i had read that it is preferrable to shoot a ladder at farther distances but i don't have a place to do that currently.

I haven't used this method a bunch, but it has worked for me every time i've used it so far. I think it's a good method, certianly not the only method, but an effective one.

R,

Jason Baney's 1000 yd ladder is "THE BOMB"! It's amazing to see it all come together when you get out to 1k and finalize your testing. Nice stick you've got there.

Alan

woods,
shots 1, 2, 3, 4 are in a node with 3 & 4 one-holing. At the time I shot the group, the velocity was up due to temperature matching the 106gr node. I think 106 will work at cooler/hunting temps.

Sksshooter,
I would just shoot some groups. The Audette is for long range; your impacts will be too close to tell anything.

GSSP,
The longest Audette I've shot is at 500. You've done it at 1000? It really dialed it in huh?

R,

After reading Jason's post on 1K ladder's on 6mmbr

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

I made up the following

LR Ladder
Stage 1: Establish Maximum Pressure like a Ladder @ practical distance of 100 - 500 yds
1. Fireform new brass in 1% increments/.4 gr increases
2. Color code bullets w/ Red/Green/Blue/Black
3. Foulers/sighters are loaded @ lowest charge
4. Spot initial rounds if possible

Stage 2: Define Accuracy Window
1. Fired @ 300-500+ yds
2. Work from max downward
3. .3 gr increments
4. Load 3 shots each, 6-10 charges, and shoot Round Robin
5. Color code
6. Shoot up down up
7. Load/shoot 10 sighter/folulers


Seating depth test
1. Load 3 shots for each seating depth of something chosen from Accuracy window and shoot
2. Shoot 3 shot groups, Round Robin, on different aim points

Stage 3: Confirm best load
1. Load and shoot 3 shot groups, Round Robin, 15 record shots,
2. .2 gr increments
3. Color code
4. Start .1 gr below and .1 gr above Accuracy Window

Stage 4: Fine-tune variables
1. Load and shoot 3-round Ladders, tuning seating depth, primers, neck tension

I received this rifle on Christmas eve. My new tactical rifle in 6.5x47 Lapua, Surgeon 591 short action, Krieger 26" MTU contour all in an AICS 1.5 stock topped by a NF 5.5-22x50mm scope.


I had my favorite load of 130 Berger VLD on top of 40.25 gr of H4350 with a CCI 450 primer by February. It took me only 4 trips to the range. It took something like 75 shots total, didn't burn out my barrel, and even with 790 odd shots down the barrel is still screaming accurate.

This is two 1k yard targets I shot back in January/February.

This is the 123 MK target with Varget.


This is the 130 VDL target with H4350.


The trick to knowing which bullet hole is which is the color coding of the bullets ogive so it leaves a colored mark around the bullet hole in the target paper. I get the paper down at or local newspaper front office. They near used rolls of their paper for $2-3 a roll.

Enjoy,

Alan

quote:

Krieger 26" MTU contour

I love my Krieger, too. I had it spun up custom. It's 1.25 inches in diameter for four inches from the breech, stainless, 29 inches long, Shrewd muzzle brake contoured in and nine flutes. Looks totally badass. Only one like it in all the world...





The rifle is 55 inches long from heel to muzzle. Had to have a case custom-built for it. That was $375. Total money wasted invested is around five thousand bucks.

Caliber/bullet/load/intended use?
Alan

quote:

Originally posted by GSSP:
Caliber/bullet/load/intended use?
Alan

My gun? Caliber is 300WSM in a Montana Rifle Company, lefthanded, long-action. SAAMI chamber. Common, garden-variety brass. Common, Group A RCBS dies. Load is 65 grains of RL-22 or H4831SC under the 180-grain HPBT Sierra MatchKing. Intended use is targets way, way out there. Muzzle velocity is 2900-plus fps. I suppose I could kick it up a notch, but it's already a half-minute gun. Richards Micro-fit Thumbhole Target stock with recoil reducers embedded in butt and forearm. It weighs eighteen pounds and barely kicks. I can shoot it all day with no discomfort. Take the muzzle brake off and it's no fun at all...