Jamison is a complete and utter asshole,and dangerous to boot! He made an extremely dangerous reloading recommendation in the early 80's for the 444 and it was never retracted. I caught him in so many mistakes that I quit buying any magazine that had one of his articles. derf

50Driver, I agree with most of your sentiments, but take exception to your thoughts on HS shock as an element of terminal performance. See http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/wounding.html for a long but informative read. After that, tell me what you think of HS Shock.

It's is all about bullet performance, and that on many levels. Terminal ballistics is an enormously complex subject.

I am skeptical of most writers these days, and find more value in places like this where the conversation is two-way.
Jamison, and from time to time the rest of them as well, say things they probably wish they could retract in the harsh glow of 20/20 hindsight. Haven't we all. I find it useful to remember that the first and primary area of expertise for a journalist is writing. It is the reason they find jobs in the field. Keeping that in mind, understand they may not know much about anything else at all. Most of the gun rag scribes provide good info at a neophyte level and perhaps a bit higher, that is all. There are a few exceptions but not many.

Dan

I cannot be bothered to read Jamieson, he is a bullshit journalist, not a gun and hunting expert. One of his fellow "experts" from Oregon wrote an article in which he openly advocated starting to reload at close to the maximum loads given in the loading manuals because he knows that they always give somewhat lowered loads for safety reasons.....this is pretty stupid, but, all too typical of gun writers, nowadays.

As far as bullshitters go, who remembers a guy called Clay Harvey, another legend in his own mind! I honestly respect Ross Seyfried, Johnny Barsness and a couple of others, but, when somebody, even the famous Craig Boddington, starts telling me that the .338 Win. is really a good idea for those huge Canadian Whitetails, I get this glazed look, thank the SuperHunter in the sky for AR!

I agree with DigitalDan. If the gun rags wrote only articles that could challenge or inform shooters of the ilk of the AR frequenters, there would be no gun mags. And, I'm sure, some in here will say they could care less but there is also a great number of beginners that would lose a great resource. Liabilities being what they are, I would believe something in a gun mag a bit quicker that I would believe some of the posters in AR.
I thought "hydrostatic shock" was an urban myth the went out with "magnums shoot on a straight line" and "yes Virginia, there are magic bullets that will make up for your lousy marksmanship."

That is typical jamison yet the magazines continue to print his B.S. for some reason.

After that long read I'll tell You what I think; That's a great informative web site. In the sixties I was caught by the HYDRAULIC SHOCK philosophy. I was the one that took the shock. Some horrible wounds and a lot of tracking. roger

Rick gets big money for his BS propaganda.If he cant BS he makes no money!That goes for all the gun magazines,and I no longer bye them.

Redneck is right. I think at a certain level, we kinda "out grow" the acrost the counter gun mags.

Agree with much of what's posted here. If the gunrags best serve the neophyte shooter and hunter, then the gunrags are doing a large disservice by and large. Even "Handloader" and "Rifle" have been dumbed down to the point I let my subscriptions lapse a year or so ago.

Besides the American Rifleman, no gun magazines come to my house any more. This board and a few others keep me a LOT better informed on what's new than any of the mainstream gun press drivel--and much of what's new ain't much to begin with.

Common sense says that good bullets--well placed--with sufficient velocity to enable sufficient penetration in the game being taken--is the guideline we should follow. All the energy calculations and formulae on earth can't begin to substitute for shot placement--period. If it's a marginal shot--don't take it. Just like real estate, it has three elements--location, location, and location. There are no magic bullets, there are no magic calibers.

DigitalDan,

Thanks for the link to the article.

About Jamison wishing he could retract some of his writings when hindsight kicks in, I do not believe in that at all.

I have wrote several articles for the Fifty CAliber Shooters Association. When I white an article, everything I write is straight from actual experience with a product or rifle, NOT OPINION.

Also, I will revise a draft at least 4 times before submitting it to the editor and in those reviews, it is easy to find erronious statements or even confusing statements.

Then the editor, if hes got a head on his shoulders better know what he is reading and catch any bad comments before it goes to print. My editor will contact me and go over my articles nearly sentence by sentence until we are both happy with the work.

I agree Jamison is a more accomplished writer then I but question his reloading expertise.

Thanks for the reply!

Good Shooting!!!

50

Mike,

What does the average Roo weight? I have heard that a 200 lb Roo is a monster. I would agree that your load on that type of animal would knock the heck out of them, especially with how lightly constructed they are in the top end.

Jamison was referring to 600 lb black bears with his comments and that is a pretty serious package to go after if not well prepared.

My point is he is not helping anyone get prepared to cleanly and safely harvest a 600 lb bear if the chance ever arose.

Thanks for the reply,

Good Shooting!!!

50

Beemanbeme,

It os your choice to believe what is said in the main stream gun mags. But if I were you, test it for yourself before you get in a situation where it better be true or things will go real bad real quick.

I do not look at the main stream gun mags through rose colored glasses. Just caught them in far to many wrong statements.

Believe what you will but the wise man learns from those that have done and not all authors have done or even though about doing. Jamisons best friend is his lap top, thats where he does his load developement at and thats about it.

50

Stubblejumper,

Good to hear from you again. Do the main stream gun mag authors get tenure like teachers where after a certain period of time they can not be fired?

Sure seems that way sometimes.

Good Shooting!!

50

Beeman,

I think you hit it right on he head, we outgrow these types of articles. It would be very nice to find a handloading, or gun/hunting mag. that was more upper end or cutting edge. It seems that some articles start off with a good idea and fall off into a,b,c, same old same.
Anyway I don't take them home anymore, just read (look at) them at the store.

Simdow

50,

I think a male red roo is about 200 pounds and a male grey might be 150 pounds. The very small females I spoke of don't weigh much at all.

My main point was not aimed so much as to which calibre might be best or whether hydrailic shock is a key killing power thing but rather the issue of velocity and hydrailic shock. My view as I said is that hydaulic shock is more a product of rapid energy loss from the bullet to the target and a bullet at 2000 f/s or so that has a big flat nose and is very soft will often transfer energy at a faster rate than will a harder and smaller bullet travelling much faster.

Mike

Reading gun magazines is like a lot of other things, it is best done with your brain in gear and a goodly supply of salt to take it with. I learned to reload by reading gun magazines when I was 14 years old - too long ago. So I do feel they serve some purpose. I don't immediately believe anything I read and not everything I see! So as long as you are sceptical enough gun mags can be good entertainment.......DJ

50, well said. I agree he is a jackass like most other "famed" gun writers. Cheers

Well what more is there to say. I believe that you are the kind of guy that believes in hard facts and I respect that cause I believe there is nothing better than doing the test yourself and not believing all the bs you read in mags.

Rudie

I have to agree with beemanbeme. The only 'gun' magazine I get is the American Rifleman, and it's going to be in the mail regardless of whether I read it or not. Half the time I read about loads or guns from yesteryear I had never heard of or forgotten about.

Reading Ricks articles is a lot like being on these web sites. You may disagree with that individual quite a bit of the time and occasionaly pick something up.
I have had subscriptions to several rags over the years but find most writers are just that. They get stuck in a rut, some write about thier actual hunting experiences honestly. These are the ones I like, as they admit to mistakes, offer ideas of what would have been better.
When they offer nothing more than an opinion we might as well be reading each others comments. Many folks here seem to have as valuable experience as any but may lack literary skills.

Jamisons no different than some others.

That big bore brush buster myth is something that ought to die and guys like Jammison perpetuating it when they should know better is shameful. I don't know how many times I've tried to convince folks differently.

Can't remember where it occured but the best test I've seen on the subject showed that it was bullet stability that kept a bullet on course after it struck something. Most of the big bores were deflected badly in their test. The bullet that did the best, a 223 fired from a mini 14. With that fast twist it was a very stable bullet that tended to keep going straight. As has been said though, there really isn't anything that will really "buck brush". If you hit something after you've clipped a twig in between, you are just lucky.

If someone is looking for a magazine that goes beyond the pap found in the over the counter magazines, I would suggest "Rifle" and "Handloader". They are about the best that's out there. Wolfe Publishing 6471 Airpark Drive Prescott Az. 86301 602-445-7810

I don't subscribe to "Handloader" so I can't say, but "Rifle" has really become not much more than any of the others: Boddington, Seified and Barsness B.S.

I inherited "Rifle" magazines from an older man who just canceled his subscription in March. They date back to the mid 60s. Back in the 60 & 70s they were awesome. In the 80s good. Since then, pretty poor.

I agree w/ many that the NRA publications - American Rifleman and American Hunter are probably the best magazines happening today!

I decided a long time ago that most gun magazines are a waste of my time and anybody elses that has any experience with firearms/hunting. For that reason there are a couple of mags that I still subscribe too (e.g. Rifle, Handloader, <---both even marginal nowadays, American Rifleman <---Hopefully we all do, Gun Tests) I will occasionally glance at one of the others on the newstand to see what is new as far as products go, but it is very rare that I will actually buy one to read. I don't usually like to badmouth the writers, because they are likely writing what the vast majority of readers like to read. Thank Goodness most of us know better. Just my two cents.

They should change the name of Gun Test to Hand Gun Test. 3 out of 4 articles is evaluating hand guns. That's why I won't be renewing my subscription. My $.02, Rojelio

Rojelio, Unfortunately you are right. I have noticed the same thing as of late. Fortunately I am also very interested in and shoot quite a few handguns as well so I can wait until they get back into rifles, assuming they do. Although I don't always agree with Gun Tests and sometimes think they bash products for ridiculous reasons, I still enjoy the read and sometimes come away with good info. After all, if I stop all of my subscriptions, what am I going to read on the can?

Shampoo Bottles?

Tooth paste?

How much skill does it take to shoot a "f"inbear over bait? How much power is needed if the shot was placed right with a 22MAG? Too bad I couldn't have got a job writing for the gun rags out of college!!! I'm sure their "checks in the mail" are a little different than farming!!! I invited several of the "gunrag" writers to show up for a varmint hunt!!! No takers!!! What I have forgot about reloading and chamberings, is more than they'll ever have in knowledge!!! I could write glowing reports about a lot of stuff if it was given to me and I knew my next paycheck depended on my glowing reveiws and how well it was received by the "public"!!!! Not me!! It works or it don't!!! It's accurate or it's not!!! It's safe or it's not!!! A man's gotta stand for something or he'll stand for anything!!! Money isn't what this one stands for!!! GHD PS: I think I could write about it!! I was only 3 hours short of a minor in English!!!!!!

GHD, you probably could write A interesting, informative article. In fact, probably several. In reading some of the articles by "professional" writers (not just, gun writers), one wonders if english is their first language. But the rub comes in when you have to write a topical, interesting, informative article every month for forty years.
Just for giggles, why don't you, at the beginning of each month for the coming year, figure out a subject for a topical article that would be of broad spectrum interest in the shooting community. Not some esoteric exercise in minutia that would be of interest only to you folks that know it all; but rather, something that would inform or intertain us great unwashed that make up 97.8% of the shooting industry.
Its not as easy as it appears.

I'm going to take a different slant on this. For one, I subscribe to almost ALL of the hunting/shooting rags available. The same prerequisite applies to reading gun rags as perusing the web for hunting/shooting information; you have to take everything with a grain of salt.

As for Jamison, I rather enjoy reading his articles. Understand that I enjoy this for his expertise in handloading, not hunting. The man does shoot and reload more than most hunters, and has access to state-of-the-art equipment. I respect that experience.

There are others whose opinion on hunting that I take far more seriously than Jamison's. That doesn't diminish the value I place on his reloading knowledge.

The same goes for buying into posts on the internet hunting/shooting forums. Surely, many of you have noticed that there are posters on this and other forums that were asking novice questions a few months ago, yet now spew opinions as fact (as though they've been experts for decades). When dribble is obvious here, there are enough experienced handloaders and hunters to put those comments into their place. That doesn't keep me from reading them. Sometimes we can genuinely help someone learn more about the sport with our input, irrespective of their purported expertise.

Sometimes nonsensical statements are worth a good chuckle. Other times, we simply have to agree to disagree. Growing up, my younger brothers were led to believe that I knew everything and was always right (a myth propagated by yours truly). That didn't make it necessarily so.

I don't take all this too seriously. That would take all the fun out of it. It isn't even that often that I actually glean something useful that I can take to the field from the internet forums, but I don't let that stop me from enjoying one of my favorite pastimes. In that same spirit, I will continue to read the occasional inane dribble in the gun rags, as well.

Rojelio,

I agree with your comments sbout Gun Tests, but I have my theory on that as well.

As a whole, at least from my viewpoitn as a gunsmith, it is a hell of alot easier to get a rifle to shoot well than it si to get a handgun to function properly.

If does not mean that I do not think factory quality control on rifles is good because it simply is not.

Just that it is much more likely that a consumer will purchase a lemon of a handgun then to get a rifle that flat is a lemon.

Just my thoughts, I like to se tests on both of them but can see why the focus of the majority of the tests are on handguns, just a greater risk in buying.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Groundhog D.,

The reason you did not get any takers on your varmint hunt envite is that you did not offer then free stuff to get them there.

Tell them that they will get rifles and scopes and they will be thicker then the varmints.

I agree with you that no honest review can be writen if the company that make the test product is paying the authors bills.

Good Shooting!!!

50

SST,

Perhaps in the past he shot and handloaded alot but in the last decade or so, I would strongly disagree with you. That is of course unless you feel that working up loads and testing them on a lap top computer is handloading, I do not.

If you took his quick load program away from him he would be nothing more then an out of work computer expert(spelled geek).

I do not see Jamison in anything resempling the light of expert. In fact from what I have read from him over the last ten years, he proves the lack of knowledge everytime he puts the pen to paper.

Just my opinion, but I have caught him in far to many dozens of flat out wrong comments to even call his articles fun reading, even under the fiction label.

50

I don't remember who said it (I think Jamison), but whoever said a 444 marlin does not produce dramatic hydrostatic shock is full of shit. I shot an antelope in the ass (NOT ON PURPOSE!) and a whitetail right thru the ribs. On both animals the HS shock was incredible. The whitetail was around 50 yards away and the antelope was closer to 100 yards, at which the velocity should have been pretty slow. On the antelope a hell of alot of meat went to the dogs due to my poor shot placement and H.S. shock. That bullet sure as hell didn't just drill a long hole through it.

Jamison wrote a glowing article on the 444 not too long after it was introduced. At the time I had one and was taking a gunsmithing course. He had nothing but praise for it and reccommended several hand loads that were supposed to be the perfect loads. I tried them and one of the loads would not even fit into the case. There was powder all over the bench! It was also Jamison that did a test of several calibres sooting through a series of wooden dowls set into a 2x6. His conclution at the time was that hitting a stick or several would not affect trajectory. I quit reading any of his articles after that and when Jerry Constantino retired I gave up on that rag altogether. derf

SST:

Well said. I like Jamison's articles and would bet that he has and does reload more ammo than most, if not all, of his detractors on this site. Sure, he has to write something every month, and they are not all worthy of being engraved in stone, but he is better than most. Too bad all these critics can't get into the gun writer field themselves, then they'd know how easy it is.

Some people seem to think using a computer program to help with reloading and/or load development makes it less valid. Oh well.....

"Jamison wrote a glowing article on the 444 not too long after it was introduced."

Something has got to be amiss here. The .444 Marlin was introduced in 1964. I'm 51, born in 1952. I was 12 when the .444 Marlin came out. I have old Guns & Ammo magazines from that time I bought as an adolescent. Jamison is no older than I am, if anything, he's a few years younger. When the hell did this guy begin his literary career, at age 9??? Bill T.

Seems to me that most of these "egg-spurts" in the gun rags prostitute themselves for their free hunts and other goodies.
There is one that I lost a great deal of respect for. He wrote that old line of B.S. that the 30-06 with a 1 in 12" twist barrel would not stabilize a 220 gr. bullet. As I have a 30-06 with a 1 in 12" twist barrel, I decided to try a quick test. I pulled a middle of the road load from a manual and shot a half dozen targets at 100 yards. There were no signs of instability in any of the targets. I then wrote said "egg-spurt" about my findings and included the targets. I also invited said "egg-spurt" to stop by and check out the rifle, the load and shoot the gun for himself, to insure that I was not bullshitting him.
I got back a nice letter saying that he stood corrected and that while he would be in my neighborhood for a (free???) dove hunt, he would be too busy to stop by. About eight months later, he writes an article on "myths" in the shooting game. In said article, Mr. Egg-Spurt mentions my communication and literally calls me a liar. Needless to say, I take anything that jackass writes now with copious quantities of salt, and as I have high blood pressure, that means I don't read anything he writes anymore. The man writes for RIFLE and HANDLOADER.
Paul B.