Eric,

I don't know how long we are going to have the luxury of having access to your technical expertise... but let me tell you, it has really been informational and appreciated...

Merry Christmas to you, your family and all the fine folks at Berger..

cheers
seafire

Yes, indeed! Very imformative. Sure glad I asked about the seating too.

What is so interesting is the comparison from one bullet maker to another.

It is safe to say that the Berger VLDs will likely shoot best in or at the lands, as where Barnes recommends several thousandths off the lands. Both techniques obviously striving for the same tight groups.

This will be interesting for sure when I get to the range with my 300 RUM and 7mm Rem Mag.

BTW, I did email Walt 2 or 3 times now regarding load data for the 300 RUM and 185 VLD with no response. Total time has been since Feb this year. I will assume there is no data available at this time.

"It is safe to say that the Berger VLDs will likely shoot best in or at the lands, as where Barnes recommends several thousandths off the lands. Both techniques obviously striving for the same tight groups."

The VLDs should be shot at both .010 into the rifling and .010 off the rifling if you are trying Berger VLDs for the first time (or for the first time in a given barrel). Recent feedback indicates that many rifle shoot the VLD well with a jump. However if you jump the VLD and they don't shoot well the first thing you should try is a jam.

If you have Barnes bullets you can conduct a simple test. Seat 20 bullets from one lot into your cases. Measure from the base of the cartridge to the end of the bearing surface (you will need an ogive gage). This dimension should be within a few thousandths if these bullets are made in the same die. If this variation is more than .005 (extreme spread) between the 20 rounds than you have bullets that were made in more than one die.

If you find more than .005 variation then this will be the reason why they suggest a jump. I do not have any Barnes bullets so I cannot do the test. They may have changed things. You can see quickly for yourself. If you do not have an ogive gage you can get one from Sinclair International. This dimension is key to precision.

"At the lands" is a very unstable place. Reloading methods are not precise enough to "just touch" the rifling consistently. Folks may disagree with me but those who truly know the actually repeatability of calipers and reloading methods can tell you that anything within +or- .005 of the rifling is in what I describe as a "no man's land".

It would be very difficult to prove that you can maintain this dimension consistently. What being in this area likely produces is some rounds that are just touching and some rounds that are just off the lands.

"BTW, I did email Walt 2 or 3 times now regarding load data for the 300 RUM and 185 VLD with no response."

Walt works every day to respond to these requests quickly. He normally responds within hours on the same day. He is using AOL so some emails end up in his span folder. It is important that you put loading data request in your subject line so he will know to pull it out of the spam folder.

Those who know Walt Berger know that he would never ignore a request for assistance. Please try one last time with this specific subject line. If he does not respond the same day let me know at eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com.

"I don't know how long we are going to have the luxury of having access to your technical expertise... but let me tell you, it has really been informational and appreciated"

Admittedly, one of my greatest challenges is making time to respond to the many communications I receive. These forums provide an even greater challenge to me since I want to read and engage in all the threads however I am (as of now) involved in 17 different forums. To read each thread on 17 different forums every day and run a business is impossible (at least for me).

This "Ask Berger" thread is an experiment on this forum only to see if I can help shooters by providing one place for them to go on this forum and ask questions instead of me going through all the threads to see where I can help. It is going well so far and may become the way I engage other forums as well. We'll see. For the record I will respond to questions on this forum until folks stop asking questions.

Eric

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Stecker:
"
This "Ask Berger" thread is an experiment on this forum only to see if I can help shooters by providing one place for them to go on this forum

Eric

I was gonna say this is the only place you need to come LOL, thanks for your explanation, I have been testing your 50grn 22 cal MATCH bullet on coyotes, very accurate bullet BTW, and so far so good on the yotes, I picked up the first box a year ago, then picked up another recently and noticed the ogive shifted about .012, so the different die deal explains this, each box have been very uniform in ogive distance, since I am jumping these a mile in a factory ruger, I saw no difference in accuracy or anything else, I just adjusted my die down the extra .012 and all was good

quote:

If you do not have an ogive gage you can get one from Sinclair International. This dimension is key to precision.

I've been using the RCBS precision mic and have no regrets. I find it to be very accurate. I've been loading my hunting ammo for quite some time using the measurement to the ogive.

It has never made sense to me to just measure OAL so long as the rounds have always fit in the magazine.

I exchanged a few emails with J. Winters at BOTW since he also has loaded the 185 VLD in his 300 RUM. His testing ultimately left him with a "single shot" rifle using that bullet but that does not bother me. Berger bullets are flat out accurate.

Eric,

Are any lighter bullets in VLD form planned for the 7mm? I was looking for a bullet lighter than the 168 for the 7mm-08 and 7-57.

thanks

I'd like to make a comment concerning my experience using Berger bullets in High Power and BR shooting, both long and short range. I used to shoot a fair number of 600+ yard matches when I lived in Phx --- well, Snottsdale, and used Walt's bullets almost exclusively. Somehow I lost my mind and mover to WA state where I shoot pretty much off the bench only now. Through all the years and changes I have gone thorough and Berger bullets has gone through, I have stuck with your brand and the bullets have never failed to give me anything but superior performance. Certainly they did and do shoot more accurately than I do.

That being said, I wonder if you can tell us if Berger has any plans to begin producing a rebated boattail bullet for the long range match shooters? They're beginning to turn up at matches here recently, or at least I've been more aware of them. I'm sure you are aware of Corbin's research and their assertion that this type bullet flys better than the standard boattail. I've tried some that a friend produces with his swaging gear, and I did see some encouraging groups although I was only given 30 to try. I'm not keen to buy all the gear to swage my own bullets as I only shoot a few BR events a year these days.

I got an email saying a 140 grain 7mm bullet was in the works. Is there any more info about it? BC possibly? 3500+ fps would be mighty flat shooting from a STW or RUM.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Stecker:
I am the Director of Operations for Berger Bullets and Walt Berger's grandson-in-law. I have been with Berger since 1990 (with a brief period away).

I have been lurking on several forums and find that I am active in 15 different forums. This has become more than I can handle.

I am new to this forum and want to try something new. I want to give everyone an opportunity to ask publicly anything you want to know that's related to Berger.

To start off, anyone looking for loading data for Berger Bullets need to email your cartridge and bullet to Walt Berger at bergerltd@aol.com. Walt is putting our loading manual together so he will be able to respond to your request quickly. The loading manual is due to be publish in the middle of 2008. That should take care of many questions.

What would you like to know or what do you need assistance with (related to Berger)?

Eric Stecker

Eric,

Welcome to the forum.

I have have spoken to Mr. Berger a number of times in the past, and he has always been very helpful.

We have in our inventory thousands of Beger bullets, in several calibers.

/

Welcome Eric!

I've been looking into the VLD's for my 300 rum

Eric,

I like shooting your 35 gr 20, cal varminter bullets. I once bought a box of your 40 gr bullets but had problems with them stabilizing in my 1:12" barrel.

Can you recommend a minimum velocity for your 40 gr bullets when shot from a 12" twist barrel?

Thanks,

Mark

Gentlemen,

I apologize for taking so long to respond. I thought this thread had run its course. I searched for it out of curiosity. I am glad I did.

Savage 99,

You are correct that we are going to make a 7mm 140 gr VLD. The die has been ordered and we should be making bullets by May. The nose shape is not quite as long as the 168 gr VLD since this leaves us with very little bearing surface. However it will be a VLD with a secant ogive and should perform very similar (terminal performance) to the heavier bullets.

Amamm,

I appreciate your kind comments and can assure you that I will carry on with everything that Walt has taught me. Regarding rebated boat tails, we have learned from folks with extensive external ballistics engineering careers and years of testing that the rebated BT is no more (or less) effective than the "smooth" BT. One problem the rebated BT faces is the BT punch. When you make rebated bullets the punches are much more critical than when you make "smooth" BT bullets.

Think about it this way, if a lot is being made with a .020 radius at the rebated BT and the punch break you either need to make a new lot or make a punch that produces a radius exactly the same as the first punch. I can tell you that this is very hard. If the punch makes a smooth BT then it is always smooth. As long as the distance and angle are the same everything else will be (much more forgiving).

I am not aware of Corbin's research but I am very aware of Bill Davis' research and experience on the same subject. In my opinion decades of testing projectiles of every shape and size wins out in my mind. Nothing against Corbin as they do what they can to promote bullet making at a good price (which I support as an entry level to bullet making). I doubt though that you will see bullet made on Corbin gear winning a BR match at any distance.

Tyler,

We won't know the BC until the bullet is made. Prints are the intended outcome but making carbide dies exactly to match a print is not easy (frankly nearly impossible) so we will wait till we have bullets in hand before we figure the BC.

Saeed,

Thank you for trusting Berger and if we ever fall short of your expectations please let me know. I am not perfect but I assure you that I will stop at nothing to make it right.

Alf,

You don't want me to give away our secrets do you? Actually, our process is fairly well known and used by hand made bullet makers all over the world. The only difference is that we have automated the process. It is faster than hand made operations but still much slower than the "bigger" outfits. We will never compromise quality for quantity. The good thing about this is we are learning how to go faster while maintaining our process.

Buglemintoday,

Now that the Berger VLDs have seen wide use during a full hunting season we have a real strong understanding of what the game hunters like. There is no question that the 168 gr VLD is the top dog followed closely by the 185 gr VLD. The rest of our 30 cal are equally as popular.

I assumed you were looking for a bullet for hunting. If you are target shooting at very long range then the heavier bullets (190 gr VLD and 210 gr VLD) are more popular. Both are more than you need for game up to caribou but will do the job.

Mark,

You should not have had any problems with the 40 gr in a 12" twist even in the smallest capacity cases. The best thing for you to do is share your situation with Walt Berger directly at bergerltd@aol.com. He will be able to help you find out what went wrong.

Regards,
Eric

I've seen references to Mr, Davis' work in a few places, but not been able to get hold of and complete study or experiments of is through the www. If you have a URL, I would greatly appreciate your posting it. I'm not aware of any nationally ranked shooters using RBT's but I don't follow things as closely as I used to. I can only get to a very few matches that are held close to me. A couple of the high scorerers at one club here claim to be using the RBTs. One makes his own (he's the one wgo lent me some to try) and another gets them from some Canadaian bullet maker.

Corbin's case for the RBT:
http://www.swage.com/ftp/rbt.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by amamnn:
I've seen references to Mr, Davis' work in a few places, but not been able to get hold of and complete study or experiments of is through the www.

Amamnn,

I do not know that Bill's work is available through the web as his many years of testing was done for the military. It might be but I do not know where to find it. Bill Davis and Walt Berger became friends while working on the first VLD. It was a project for the USAMU back in the 80's.

Since then Bill and Walt and later myself have had many discussion on external ballistics. His information has been confirmed by other knowledgeable (but less experienced) ballisticians. I trust his knowledge and that is enough for me.

I encourage you and everyone to do their own testing. I know that no one has the resources, facility and time spent on test like Bill. Unfortunately, these military ballistic labs are closed and Bill is retired. If the test results were recorded and are not classified there is a gold mine of data.

Regards,
Eric

Eric, Is berger going to come out with a reloading manal in the near future and if so, when will it be available?


thanks kris

Kris,

We are working on our loading manual. Frankly we had expected to release the manual this summer but this may be delayed.

I can assure you that when the Berger loading manual is produced you will find it to be a very thorough and helpful tool. We will not publish this manual until it is right so a date is not certain.

For now you can get a full spread of reloading data by sending an email to Walt Berger at bergerltd@aol.com. Make sure to put "load data request" as the subject line so you don't get swept into his spam file. He usually send a full chart of data the same day.

Regards,
Eric

Eric, thanks for the info.

kris

Eric,

I am reading this thread for the first time, and I must say THANK YOU for your expertise, your time and effort answering questions on this forum. It is much appreciated.
Keep up the good work!

John

Eric, Could you please post the changes that have been made with the 68gr 6mm bullets. Thanks, Peter.

also when are the 270/130 bullets going to be ready, I ordered a box months ago, and they are still not in

Just wondering if anyone has tried the 270 VLD, either 130, 140, or 150. How did they perform on paper? Were they better in the lands or backed off? I also plan on trying them in 243, maybe 95gr.

Here is the information Eric emailed me about their 68gr bullets. I copied and pasted it unedited.

"The die for the 6mm 68 gr has been changed for better performance. The meplat was changed from .062 to .046. We asked for a 8 cal ogive but believe that we were given a 6.7 cal ogive. These changes will affect your seating depth dimension. We made these changes public through our dealer network and the internet forums. The dimensions of the newer bullets will be the same for future lots.



Regards,

Eric Stecker
General Manager
Master Bulletsmith
Berger Bullets"

Not sure if you're still around Eric, but will you reloading book have non-SAAMI cartridges, like wildcats? I would like some definitive loading data with good starting points for wildcats.

quote:

Originally posted by Glen:
Just wondering if anyone has tried the 270 VLD, either 130, 140, or 150. How did they perform on paper? Were they better in the lands or backed off? I also plan on trying them in 243, maybe 95gr.

Hi Glen, I know this post has been dead for some time now, just doing some searches on Berger bullets, and I can tell you that the .270 VLD's shot outta my Tikka T3 Lite in .270 WSM printed exceptionally well on paper. Once I had my scope sighted, I could print sub MOA at 100 yards with no problem whatsoever. I have them 0.30 off the lands and with my rifle they seem to work very well, I've taken 2 whitetails this year already and plan on taking a couple more before the weeks out!

I have yet to try your bullets. But thanks for the information. I know the rep your bullets have earned-excellent product, I'm told!

for what it is worth... i have an older 6mmACKLEY. i have loaded every bullet and powder that can be loaded in this cartridge as i like to experiment. nothing comes close to berger 80 g and reloader 22 w/ fed 210m . on rebated boattail bullets 30 cal. hornady used to make a 190 and it was very good. i still have some. 9mm magnum ammo from AMT was loaded w/ a 147 rebated boattail and was very accurate. they evidently do not sell well enuf.

I just thought I's add that I tried the Berger 6mm 88 grain high BC flat base bullet recently and was very impressed. I think they may be replaciing the 80s as my match bullets.

I don't have a chance to shoot much beyond 200 or 300 yards anymore so the rebated boattail is a matter of academic interest only for me. I believe I saw some being offered by Lapua, but as they were not in any of my BR calibers, I did not pay much attention.