I am the Director of Operations for Berger Bullets and Walt Berger's grandson-in-law. I have been with Berger since 1990 (with a brief period away).

I have been lurking on several forums and find that I am active in 15 different forums. This has become more than I can handle.

I am new to this forum and want to try something new. I want to give everyone an opportunity to ask publicly anything you want to know that's related to Berger.

To start off, anyone looking for loading data for Berger Bullets need to email your cartridge and bullet to Walt Berger at bergerltd@aol.com. Walt is putting our loading manual together so he will be able to respond to your request quickly. The loading manual is due to be publish in the middle of 2008. That should take care of many questions.

What would you like to know or what do you need assistance with (related to Berger)?

Eric Stecker

this is awesome thanks for coming on, I think there is alot of happy berger users here, a couple questions,

are there any plans to discontinue the 50grn .22 cal MATCH bullet??

can't wait for the 270 bullet, this could be a one bullet does it all thing, handle my long range coyote needs and big game

quote:

are there any plans to discontinue the 50grn .22 cal MATCH bullet??

No. The 22 cal 50 gr is a very popular bullet and should be around for a long time.

Eric

Welcome to the forum Eric.

I am now hunting deer with Berger VLD's as prompted by an article by John Barsness and the kindness shown to me with computer programs long ago by Bill Davis. So far your VLD's are superb.

Eric,

Welcome to the forum!

You have a great product!

I am a tried and true fan of your 168g VLD in my 7mm RM. I have used them exclusivly in that rifle all over Texas and I even used them in Africa this year with outstanding success on nine animals from Gemsbok to Steenbuck. Everything I have used them on has become meat in the freezer, From Gemsbok in South Africa to Piggies in Texas.

Thanks for a great and ACCURATE bullet.

Hey Eric, I do have one additional question.

Back a long time ago I used to take Precision Shooting. In it Mr. Berger had an ad that kept a running Talley of how many Moly Coated Bullets had been through Mrs. Berger's rifle "with no appreciable accuracy degredation"(or words to that effect).

Any idea what the final Talley was before they did notice the accuracy was changing?

If the answer is too difficult to track down, I can understand that. It has been a very long time ago.

Hi Eric. I saw the other post about the 270 bullets and have been waiting patiently for their arrival. I load quite a bit for several .277 rifles.

As soon as I can, I will load the 130s up in a standard 270 WIN and test them in SC, AL, MO and KY on whitetails.

I do have a question. Will any of these bullets survive a 1-8 twist Lilja barrel on a 270 Allen Mag, 28" tube? (300 RUM necked down to .277).

I was hoping to try the 150 in the new Allen mag but was concerned about the 1-8 twist. I would estimate MV at ~ 3500 fps.

Thank you for your kind words and I am happy to hear that the bullets are working for you.

"Any idea what the final Talley was before they did notice the accuracy was changing?"

No. I don't recall that this was pursued to completion. In fact I will go further and say that when using moly coated bullets you should not expect the precision life of a barrel to be any longer.

We have a better understanding now that moly does allow the shooter to maintain the same level of precision longer than non-coated bullets during a shooting session. After the shooting session it is important to clean your barrel. We strongly recommend cleaning your barrel after each shooting session or at least at the end of the day.

The claim that moly will extend the life of a barrel was based on a test conducted by Norma. Norma uses 1 MOA at 300 yards as there standard to determine if a barrel is no longer usable for testing. When Norma tested loads using moly coated bullets they observed that it took nearly double the number of rounds to reach their 1 MOA at 300 yard standard.

These findings certainly support the claim that barrel life is extended when using moly. The trouble is most target shooters would make a barrel a pump handle long before it reached 1 MOA. When the standard is 1/4 or 1/2 MOA the number of shots that it takes to reach this tighter standard is not significantly greater than if you were using non-moly. Once we understood this we backed off on promoting this claim (among a few other like the fact that you don't need to clean your barrel when using moly which is not true).

I know moly is a hot buttom for many shooters so I will not go too deeply into this subject unless someone wants me to. I can tell you that Walt, Eunice (while she was alive) and I have shot only moly coated bullets since the moly concept was introduced and we are very pleased with the results.

"Will any of these bullets survive a 1-8 twist Lilja barrel on a 270 Allen Mag, 28" tube?"

Doc,

Unfortunately, I don't know. We just started making these bullets and until someone tries to shoot them in an 8" twist we won't truly know if they will hold up. You will be spinning the bullet at 315,000 RPM which is up there but not entirely unreasonable.

To help us both I'll make the offer to you that if you buy a box, try them and they do fail I will either provide you with a full box of different bullets or a refund. This way we can learn some important information together. My gut tells me that they will work.

Eric

Eric- Are you still making bullets one at a time on individual presses, or are you automated yet?

quote:

Are you still making bullets one at a time on individual presses, or are you automated yet?

The correct answer is yes and yes. I believe that when you say "on individual presses" you are reffering to the RCBS hand presses we used for years. We have not made bullets on these presses since 2000. However, the presses we use now are independant and seperate from each other. They incorporate pressure sensing so that we can reject bullets during the process the same way we did using the hand presses.

Other bullet makers use one ram moving in one direction to do all the forming steps at the same time. We believe this process does not allow for the highest level of consistency.

Walt made the decision to automate our hand press operation in 1998. He required that the same key processes utilized by a person running a press be incorporated into an automated system. So, yes we still make bullets one at a time on individual presses using pressure sensing (and everything goes through the same die) and yes we are automated.

Eric

Hey Eric, I do appreciate your response about Moly, and I totally agree the Barrels still need to be cleaned.

My memory is prone to shifting numbers on me, but I believe Mrs. Berger was almost at 5000 Shots the last time I saw the ad. And there used to be an active Link to the Norma Test Results. I believe they were closing in on 10k shots with some kind of "hot" 6.5mm.

Precision Shooting is what got me interested in Moly and I've used it in 99% of my rifles since then. It can be a bit aggravating, but it is worth the effort for me.

Best of luck to Berger Bullets.

Ok, I need a refresher course. I know what moly is, what it's application is, etc. However, I do not know what the cleaning maintenance is when shooting moly bullets.

So, question one is, IF I wanted to shoot some moly coated bullets in my rifles, (BTW, none are factory barrels, so I don't know if that matters. Plus all are stainless and handlapped), what is the usual and reasonable cleaning regimen and with what cleaners?

Question 2: If I have a load worked up with, say, the 168 Berger VLD in my 7 Rem Mag, and I wanted to try the same bullet but moly coated, what can I expect at the range in terms of velocity changes, POI, etc.?

Question 3: What is the overall best way to get moly bullets, meaning, is it best if I buy regular bullets and learn to moly coat them myself, or just buy moly bullets from the manufacturer?

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Stecker:
Doc,

To help us both I'll make the offer to you that if you buy a box, try them and they do fail I will either provide you with a full box of different bullets or a refund. This way we can learn some important information together. My gut tells me that they will work.

Eric

Sounds reasonable to me. I will get some 150 grain bullets from you then. I'm assuming they are VLDs. (Should I buy direct from you, or go online to Midsouth shooter supply, Sinclair, midway, or the like? Also, will they be available from the factory with moly?

(Related to)maybe.Will have to try some Berger bullets.

Michael F. Berger

Eric,

Thanks for offering your knowledge. I have used the 168 grain VLD in my .30-06 with great success. I am looking at trying your 6.5 VLD in my CZ 6.5x55. Would the 130 have any advantage over the 140? Will the Swede give suffecient velocity for these bullets to work their magic? Is there an optimum velocity for your bullets? Thanks, Joe

Eric, Welcome and thank you for the offering of a direct link. I have used quite literally thousands of Berger bullets and have always found them to be of the highest quality and accuracy. When shooting in South Dakota years back with a 6.5/284 I was able to shoot the 140's against the Sierra 142's and the Hornady A-Max at distances approaching a mile. The Bergers were noticably flatter, and subsiquently more wind resistant as well. Thanks again.

Eric.
I recently discoverd Walt like me loves the .257 roberts. I have 2 and an AI on the way.
can you ask walt witch bullet he uses for deer hunting in the Roberts and his favorite Powder.
thanks
...tj3006

"IF I wanted to shoot some moly coated bullets in my rifles, (BTW, none are factory barrels, so I don't know if that matters. Plus all are stainless and handlapped), what is the usual and reasonable cleaning regimen and with what cleaners?"

Cleaning is important when using moly bullets. There are a couple of different ways you can clean when using moly bullets. We have a process that works for us. It is as follows (which can be found on our website at www.bergerbullets.com under the Information heading on the FAQ page)

1. Push one patch wet with Kroil Oil through the barrel
2. Repeat step 1.
3. Push one dry patch through the barrel.
4. Repeat step 3.
5. Push one patch wet with Butch's Bore Shine through the barrel.
6. Repeat step 5.
7. Let the barrel soak for 5 to 10 minutes.
8. Push one dry patch through the barrel.
9. Repeat step 8.
10. Using short strokes back and forth push one patch wet with USP or JB Bore Paste through the barrel.
11. Push one patch wet with Kroil through the barrel.
12. Repeat step 11 twice.
13. Push one dry patch through the barrel.
14. Repeat step 13 three times.
15. Use bore scope or visually inspect muzzle for copper fouling.
16. If copper is present repeat steps 10 through 15.
17. If you are storing the rifle push one patch wet with quality gun oil through the barrel.

"If I have a load worked up with, say, the 168 Berger VLD in my 7 Rem Mag, and I wanted to try the same bullet but moly coated, what can I expect at the range in terms of velocity changes, POI, etc.?"

When changing from non-moly to moly it is very important that you make sure your barrel is completely clean. The next step is to shoot 10 shots using moly coated bullets then clean using the procedure listed above.

Once this is done you can start shooting moly while observing the true results. Some folks base their opinions of moly on the first few shots. Moly will get into the grain of the barrel steel. Until this is accomplished by firing several shots you will not see the true results moly will produce.

Now if you shoot the same load as you described in your question you will realize a drop in velocity of around 75 to 150 FPS. The POI will be affected in the same way as it would be if you lowered your load to produce the same result. To maintain your velocity simply increase your load slightly (it is best if this is done and checked by each shooter as powder types and lots will produce different results). An interesting (and proven) result is that once you adjust your load to go back to the non-moly velocity it will produce slightly less pressure. This was one of the selling points for moly but was not taken seriously since so few people can check the pressure of there load. It is true though. How or if it matters is hard to say.

"What is the overall best way to get moly bullets, meaning, is it best if I buy regular bullets and learn to moly coat them myself, or just buy moly bullets from the manufacturer?"

Without question the best way is to coat them yourself. The process is easy and cheap for the individual. Since manufacturers have to pay someone to do it plus the lights, rent, insurance, taxes, blah, blah, blah it is more expensive for us to do it.

To get your moly coated bullets to look like Bergers follow these simple steps.
1. Use RCBS Sidewinder tumblers with two barrels (one for moly and one for wax which can never be mixed). Other tumblers may work.
2. Put up to 15 pounds of bullets into the moly tumbler. The bullets must be clean.
3. No matter have many bullets you are tumbling start with 30 gr of moly. Add 1 gr of moly for each pound of bullets. Example: 5 pounds of bullets needs 35 gr of moly. 12 pounds of bullets need 42 gr of moly.
4. Tumble the bullets with the moly for 2 hours.
5. When finished pour the bullets out of the moly barrel onto a towel.
6. Grabbing both ends of the towel rolls the bullets back and forth inside the towel (this removes excess moly which causes clumping).
7. Pour the bullets into the wax only barrel (it is very important to keep the wax out of the moly tumbler or the moly will not stick.)
8. Use the following amount of carnuba wax (in powder form). 1-4 pounds of bullets use .3 gr of wax. 5-9 pounds of bullets use .7 gr of wax. 10-15 pounds of bullets use 1 gr of wax.
9. Tumble the bullets with the wax for 15 minutes.
10. Remove the bullets and your ready to shoot.

As of Jan 1, 2008 we will discontinue stocking about 2/3 of our moly bullets. We sell so few of these bullets that it does not pay to keep them active and to charge what it costs us to inventory these bullets prices them so high no one will buy them.

We will start up again our moly coating service. The details for this service are not completed yet. We are doing this so that those who want moly and aren't set up to do it themselves can still get there bullets coated.

Even though we will provide this service it is cheapest and best if the shooter can coat them himself.

"I will get some 150 grain bullets from you then. I'm assuming they are VLDs. (Should I buy direct from you, or go online to Midsouth shooter supply, Sinclair, midway, or the like? Also, will they be available from the factory with moly?"

Dealers like Midway, Sinclair and Powder Valley will stock these bullets and will likely beat our direct price. However, if you want to insure that you get them when the run is made you can order directly from us at 714-447-5456. These bullets will not be available in moly coated but we will have a service available to coat them very soon (and will do it if you order from us now).

"Would the 130 have any advantage over the 140? Will the Swede give suffecient velocity for these bullets to work their magic? Is there an optimum velocity for your bullets?"

In the 6.5X55 I suggest you use the 130 gr VLD. You will get a bit more velocity and the hollow point has a larger cavity allowing the bullet to perform better at the slower velocity (as compared to larger 6.5mm cartridges). Each bullet has the potential of shooting "better" in a given rifle but the 130 gr VLD is a better match for your situation.

The 130 gr VLD should work however I will suggest that you keep your shots to 500 yards or less. Most of the testing was done using a MV around 3,000 FPS. The tests that were shot at slower velocity were loaded down and may not accurately represent the results of a fully loaded cartridge with less capacity. If you shoot them I will be interested in the results you observe.

"can you ask walt witch bullet he uses for deer hunting in the Roberts and his favorite Powder"

Walt used the Berger 25 cal 115 gr VLD to take a red stag buck in New Zealand earlier this year. Frankly, we were not aware of the terminal performance of the Berger VLD until recently so he used other bullets on his previous hunts. Walt is returning from a trip today and I cannot reach him right now. The best thing to do will be to ask Walt directly at bergerltd@aol.com.

Walt is a huge influence on our operation and spends his time responding to technical questions from shooters. He is a highly knowledgeable resource and I encourage anyone to contact him if you want some top level advice and loading data for Bergers.

Eric

Hello Eric,

when will the Berger's be available in .338?

A question regarding Berger VLD bullets vs the other match bullets; other than the shape of the bullets, is the construction/performance on game really that different?

The reason I ask, I used Berger VLD bullets and a 300 Weatherby Magnum on a recent antelope hunt and was very satisfied with their performance. You don't offer the VLD line in all the calibers I load for and at times lighter weight bullets shoot better than weights of VLD bullets available.

Eric?

Eric,

I have been very pleased with the performance of my .25 110 gr MEF bullets. I haven't seen them listed anywhere for a while now. Are they listed under another name now, or have they been discontinued?

What would you recommend in their place if they are no longer available? For long range pd's in a fast twist bbl.

Thanks.

Norseman,

My apologies for not responding more quickly. My distractions are many but I will be sure to make it back here to respond.

"when will the Berger's be available in .338?"

The bullet designs are completed. We are working on the many prints for the tooling needed. Also, we are in the process of building the machine that will have enough stroke and power to make these bullets. I expect the Berger 338 will be completed during the summer of 2008. We have many challenges ahead so this may change but it is our current goal.

"A question regarding Berger VLD bullets vs the other match bullets; other than the shape of the bullets, is the construction/performance on game really that different? The reason I ask, I used Berger VLD bullets and a 300 Weatherby Magnum on a recent antelope hunt and was very satisfied with their performance. You don't offer the VLD line in all the calibers I load for and at times lighter weight bullets shoot better than weights of VLD bullets available."

This is a great question and you touch on a reality that we are addressing as quickly as possible. First, the Berger VLD is made using a similar construction as other match bullets. It is not exactly the same and we believe this is the key difference. I am not answering your question directly because we believe that the specific differences combined with the VLD shape is the reason why they perform so well on game and we would like to keep these differences from the other bullet makers as long as is possible.

The fact that the Berger VLD is doing so well on game is compelling us to make these bullets in both different calibers and lighter weights specifically for game. For example, we are making the 270 cal VLD for the first time as I write this response. We will be making a 7mm 140 gr VLD. There will be a 338 cal down the road (7-8 months). We are listening closely to the hunters requests for different weights and will respond with new bullets as we become aware of these needs.

"I have been very pleased with the performance of my .25 110 gr MEF bullets. Are they listed under another name now, or have they been discontinued?

What would you recommend in their place if they are no longer available? For long range pd's in a fast twist bbl."

For reasons I do not understand the 25 cal has been the lowest selling caliber for us since its introduction. Among the 25 cal bullets we did sell the varmint versions were the lowest selling bullets of all the bullets we offered. To answer your question the Berger 25 cal 110 gr MEF (Varmint) was discontinued. The cost to keep these bullets available was so high that either we lose a bunch of money on them or we charge so much that even the few folks that liked them would not want to buy them.

We will make any bullet for which we have dies in quantities of 10,000 or more. The cost will be a bit cheaper than the standard price however I recognize that 10,000 is quite a few bullets. If you are interested in purchasing a discontinued Berger in this quantity contact Andrea Cobos at 714-447-5456 or andrea.cobos@bergerbullets.com for information on this program.

Unfortunately, we do not make a suitable replacement for the 110 gr MEF. Presently we make only the 87 gr and 115 gr VLD. We will soon be making a 125 gr VLD. Your best bet is to find a similar bullet made by another manufacturer unless you can take advantage of the 10,000 bullet program.

Eric

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Stecker:
We are listening closely to the hunters requests for different weights and will respond with new bullets as we become aware of these needs. Eric

Excellent, then I suggest a 120 grain VLD .277 bullet. This is a well balanced weight for smaller deer and antelope. My brother is currently shooting a 110 Barnes TSX and the results are excellent. We like the 110 and 120 weights in 270, especially out west.

what is the BC of the 130, 140, 150, .277 cal VLD bullets going to be??

Eric,
thanks for responding.

What will the B.C. value be of the 7mm 140 grain and what weight will Berger be offering for the .338 as well the B.C. value?

What barrel twist is needed for the 7mm 140 grain as well as the .338 bullet?

"Excellent, then I suggest a 120 grain VLD .277 bullet."

I appreciate the feedback. I have not heard many folks ask for a lighter 270 cal (than the 130gr) however we are new to the 270 cal and if there are more hunters who feel as you do then it will be on the list (it is just a matter of when).

"what is the BC of the 130, 140, 150, .277 cal VLD bullets going to be??"

We have just calculated the BC for these bullets and they are as follows:

270 cal 130 gr VLD Berger = .473 BC
270 cal 140 gr VLD Berger = .509 BC
270 cal 150 gr VLD Berger = .545 BC

"What will the B.C. value be of the 7mm 140 grain and what weight will Berger be offering for the .338 as well the B.C. value? What barrel twist is needed for the 7mm 140 grain as well as the .338 bullet?"

Unfortunately, I will not know the answers to these questions until the bullets are made. Estimated BCs can be off by a lot since the die maker is the one who determines how the bullet will fly (not the print). The estimated BC for the 338 cal bullets is high enough that it is difficult to take it seriously until we can prove it.

Eric

Eric,

It's great to see you continuing the family tradition of commmunicating with the shooting public. One of my most treasured bits of shooting memorabilia are 2 e mails from Walt. The first was a general answer regarding my question about 30gr MEF data for 222rem. The second was about 2 weeks later with actual load data he had got from dusting off Eunice' 222rem bench gun and shooting the bullets! Amazing customer service - I really felt privileged.

Now a question. Given a 243 with 9twist and a 2.8" magazine length could the 90gr VLD be made to work from the magazine (ie will the ogive allow seating that deep) and would it work reliably on small (read 60lb max) deer at a MV of 3,200-3,300fps?

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
Given a 243 with 9twist and a 2.8" magazine length could the 90gr VLD be made to work from the magazine (ie will the ogive allow seating that deep) and would it work reliably on small (read 60lb max) deer at a MV of 3,200-3,300fps?

This is also why I asked about a 120 grain VLD in .277. Due to the match ogive of the Berger VLD, and thus overall length of the bullet, I was curious about seating depth as well.

Eric who actually owns Berger bullets now? I believe they have been sold 2 times or so since it was owned by Walt. What does Walt do there now, if anything. He must be nearly 80ish by now isn't he?

1894mk2,

Thank you for your kind words. Walt taught me a lot more than how to make bullets. I will do my best to apply his teachings. Eunice was a wonderful woman and is missed. There are many who were touched by her efforts.

"Given a 243 with 9twist and a 2.8" magazine length could the 90gr VLD be made to work from the magazine (ie will the ogive allow seating that deep) and would it work reliably on small (read 60lb max) deer at a MV of 3,200-3,300fps?"

To be clear the 6mm 90 gr BT is not a VLD. This is important only because we have not tested any shape other than VLD on game. I do not know (by our testing) how our BT version works on game. I have been told that some hunters like the performance on small deer. Also, the 80 gr and 90 gr BT are working well on coyotes (which are not quite as big but tissue density might be called similar). Your 9" twist will stabalize our 95 gr VLD which we know works very well on deer.

What is the difference between the BT and VLD versions you ask? The shape of the nose on the BT is tangent (more ball like). The VLD (more needle like) retains more velocity, energy and its sharp nose allows the bullet to "poke" through the first 2" to 3" of tissue and bone before expanding. The BT bullets may work but the results are different and untested.

Now to answer your first question last. The nose length of the 90 gr BT is .623. With a 2.8" mag length and a 2.045" cartridge length you have .755 to spare so the 90 gr will fit. The 95 gr VLD has a nose lenth of .683 so it will fit in the mag as well. You may have a bit of a jump which may influence precision when using a VLD.

"This is also why I asked about a 120 grain VLD in .277. Due to the match ogive of the Berger VLD, and thus overall length of the bullet, I was curious about seating depth as well."

The nose length of all three 270 cal bullets currectly available is .627. When we make a 120 gr VLD the nose length will be the same. We do plan on making a BT (non-VLD) version for the 6.8mm AR shooters which will be one or two different weights between 100 gr. and 120 gr. Be careful to pick the bullets marked VLD for hunting.

"Eric who actually owns Berger bullets now? I believe they have been sold 2 times or so since it was owned by Walt. What does Walt do there now, if anything. He must be nearly 80ish by now isn't he?"

Berger is owned by the JRJRC LLC. This is a family that purchased all of the assests from the previous owner, Spiveco Inc. A brief history lesson, Spiveco Inc. was founded by one of the original founders of Sierra Bullets (J.L. Spivey). Due to a non-compete clause he could not make bullets but he could make jackets. He and a few other created the J4 Jacket.

When Berger was owned by Walt, we were the sole distributor of the J4 Jackets (which we also used exclusively). Around 1998 Walt decided that Berger would automate. He believed merging with Spiveco would provide us with both a secure source of jackets and allows us to utilize their many engineers and highly skilling tooling personnel.

Unfortunately, Spiveco (which was now being run by the founders son) was heading for financial trouble. Several bad things happened and by 2002 Spiveco needed to sell out to avoid bankrupcy.

This is where JRJRC (Caran Precision) steps in and buys up all of Spiveco's assets (including Berger). Both Spiveco and Caran Precicion are much larger than Berger so we get the advantage of having a significant engineering and tooling group at our fingertips. The new situation is MUCH better and we are excited about the future of Berger.

Walt lives in Phoenix and spends much of his time providing technical help to shooters, developing our loading data and shooting in matches. I speak with Walt daily and his influence over our operation through me is significant. Walt will turn 80 next year and it is my sincere hope that he will be directly involved with Berger for many years to come.

Eric

Eric- I notice your location is in Fullerton, Ca. Are you not in the Phoenix area anymore?

"I notice your location is in Fullerton, Ca. Are you not in the Phoenix area anymore?"

When Walt merged Berger with J4 (Spiveco) the plan was for Berger to stay in Phoenix. Spiveco's financial troubles compelled the owner to move Berger from Phoenix to Fullerton, CA. At that time (2000) everyone except Walt and Eunice was released. I came back to Berger in 2004 after Caran took over.

After two years of flying back and forth every week between Phoenix and Fullerton I moved my family to CA. The weather is considerable cooler than Phoenix.

Eric

Eric, Do Berger still have active importers of your bullets into Australia, as several local retailers told me about 12 months ago, that they were no longer imported into Oz.

I am particularly interested in your .224 90 grain VLD, and in .257 the 115 and 125 (when it becomes available)grain VLD's.

Do you think that the 90 grain VLD will withstand the 355,000 - 365,000 rpm generated by 3,200 - 3,300 fps in my Kreiger 6.5 twist barrel, which is chambered for the .224 Clark?

Similarly, do you think the 115 and 125 grain VLD's would withstand the 335,000 - 345,000 rpm generated by 3,250 - 3,350 fps in my Kreiger 7.0 twist barrel, which is chambered for the 257Weatherby.

This 7 twist barrel does shoot the 156 grain Wildcat UlD (1.550 in) accurately, but I am looking to use a lighter high BC bullet in some hunting situations. Brian.

Eric,

Many thanks for the information. This is an excellent service that I hope doesn't get hijacked.

"Do Berger still have active importers of your bullets into Australia"

Pro-Cal Trading in Bannockburn, Vic (03-5281-1380) is the most active with fairly regular and sizeable shipments. We have shipped to RDT Products in Robertson, NSW (02-4885-1881) and Tanta Gunsmiths in Candelo, NSW (02-6493-2377) but activity is less than Pro-Cal.

Frankly, we have done a poor job of properly organizing our end of the export process. In fact we recently lost our ability to ship overseas for a short period due to a failure to renew our license. All of this has been resolved and we are eager and able to ship overseas.

The process has been simplified so if anyone is interested in opening the pipeline to Aus. they should contact me directly at eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com.

Regarding the 22 cal 90 gr VLD, we have been working to provide good RPM limits data. Unfortunately, the process of collecting this data is slow and we need a massive amount of it to insure accurate information. I do not know if 355,000+ RPM is more than the 90 gr VLD can take but it sure is a lot.

Something else to keep in mind is that the 90 gr VLD was intended to be shot in the 223 cartridge. This does not mean for sure that it won't work in the 224 Clark but you are pushing the limits if it does work.

By limits I am refering to the fact that under these conditions the bullet will realize a lot of friction. This friction can result in the lead core melting which is certain to cause bullet failure.

If you have an opportunity to try these bullets in your Clark I recommend that you use moly and that you make sure the barrel is not worn out and is clean before shooting. This will help the bullets make it to the target (unless the RPMs spin the jacket off of them).

The same thing is true with the 257 Weatherby in a 7" twist. We recommend that the 115 gr VLD be shot in a 10" twist so your 7" twist will definately be spinning the 115 gr faster than is needed to stabilize the bullet. Again this may work just fine but you are pushing the combination into the extremes if it does work.

I'm sorry that I cannot say for sure yes it will or no it won't. One of the things I have learned is that there are enough variations in all the characteristic of the many components used in shooting that these complex combination are capable of producing different results even though two different rifle may look the same on an equipment list.

Too often I see one report that states something will not work and then will get another report that claims it does work. You are definately on the extreme edge but only trying the bullets will tell you for sure. If you do give them a try I will be interested in the results you get.

Eric

Thanks for addressing the shortage of .277 bullets out there for long range. I will be trying some as soon as I can get them shipped.

We have just calculated the BC for these bullets and they are as follows:

270 cal 130 gr VLD Berger = .473 BC
270 cal 140 gr VLD Berger = .509 BC
270 cal 150 gr VLD Berger = .545 BC


These numbers seem to be real close to Accubonds #s, in other cals your BC are higher than ABs, is this a .277 thing or are your #s just conservitive on this?

Thanks for the thread and I too hope it stays on track.

RC

"These numbers seem to be real close to Accubonds #s, in other cals your BC are higher than ABs, is this a .277 thing or are your #s just conservitive on this?"

The 270 cal VLD was designed with the hunter in mind. This means that we were not as aggressive with the nose profile as we have been with bullets meant for target competition shooters.

Many hunter using 270 cal are feeding through a magazine. Longer VLD noses do not allow some bullets to be fed through a mag. Also, long VLD noses that do fit in the magazine tend to have long jumps in hunting rifles. This can result in poor accuracy.

Understanding both these situations we went with a more conservative VLD profile. It is still a secant ogive and will produce the same results as other VLDs. How are the same results possible if the BC is similar to non-VLD bullets you ask? What I mean by produce the same results is that our 270 cal will shoot well and provide same terminal performance on game that all our VLDs are producing.

We are learning a lot about BC and we are being conservative with our published numbers. This may play a part in the similarity. We know that the difference of .040 for example in BC looks good on paper but the real world difference is minimal.

In the case of the 270 cal design we favored compromises that allow the hunter to have the best shooting and most lethal bullet we could make. We gave a bit of the BC away to make this happen. If we find that we were wrong in doing this it will not take moving a mountain to make an adjustment.

Eric

Eric, is the general rule with Bergers to seat them at or into the lands?

"Eric, is the general rule with Bergers to seat them at or into the lands?"

The short answer is bullets that are made in the same dies typically shoot better if they touch the rifling (not in all rifles). The primary reason is because the pressure spike (which will be a bit higher) is more consistent. Another reason is because it puts the bullet in the same place in relation to the bore every time. Everything being the same equals precision (pressure and alignment).

This is a very important question and an often misunderstood situation. We have even made a few mistakes in communicating why it is good to put the VLDs into the lands. If you are satisfied with the above answer then don't waste your time reading further.

Through the years the most commonly available bullets were made using more than one die. This is how volume is made. Machines can only run so fast so to make a lot of bullets you use more dies so each time a machine goes up and down 4 bullets are made instead of 1. This is done by many bullet makers still today (we use only one set of dies for everything).

Die makers cannot duplicate the shape of an ogive (and other dimensions) exactly from die to die. EDM machines use electricity to eat the shape into the carbide. Then the die is polished. If the most capable machine and the most skilled die maker produces two dies that are exactly the same I can assure you that it was luck.

This is important in reloading because the relationship between where the seater stem touches the ogive and where the ogive meets the bearing surface is a very critical dimension for precision.

If all your bullets are made in the same die you will be able to seat them into your cases then measure from the base of the cartridge to where the bearing surface ends. This dimension should be within a few thousanth from round to round. Bullets made in different dies cannot produce ammo that meets this standard.

The rifling is at a fixed distance from your bolt face. If your ammo varies from the base of the cartridge to the end of the bearing surface you will not be able to touch the rifling consistently.

Since the variation in base to bearing surface length from round to round was common throughout the years with factory and reloaded ammo the industry suggestion to jump the bullet makes perfect sense. If you are off the rifling then you are always off. This is the best consistecy this situation could produce resulting in the best precision available using this ammo.

Some relayed this as a safety issue but we know now that it has very little to do with safety. If you touch the rifling your pressure will go up slightly but not enough to turn a safe load into an unsafe load. It is very important to mention that if you are shooting a very hot (unsafe) load that is jumping the bullet you could put your rifle and safety at risk if you touch the rifling.

When the Berger VLD bullets were introduced in the late 80's shooters were jumping them just like they would any ammo they shot. In many rifles the bullets worked fine however some rifles would not shoot the VLD well. Since touching the rifling has been a way to improve precision known by BR shooters for many years who use good bullets Walt suggested these folks move the VLD bullets into the rifling. This solved the problem (in most rifles).

Our mistake was that we did not realize how many rifles shot the VLD well with a jump. Since we were only hearing from the folks with problems we made the mistaken assumption that everyone needed to put the VLDs into the rifling which is why we started recommending this practice to everyone.

This hurt us a bit since folks who magazine feed could not touch the rifling so they would not try the VLD. Now that we have found the VLD to be a extremely effective game hunting bullet we are hearing from many shooters that the VLD works great out of a magazine (jumped). However we are also hearing that some folks need to put the bullet into the lands to get them to shoot (just like we did in the beginning).

Today, we recommend that if you can touch the rifling you should shoot some groups with ammo that is .010 into the rifling and ammo that is .010 off the rifling. This will tell you pretty quickly if your rifle likes a jump or a jam (or both). From there you can tweak your load further if needed.

If you use a magazine then just try the bullets at a OAL that will feed and see what happens. If they don't shoot well then we recommend shooting some ammo that is loaded to touch the rifling (single fed) just to see if this is the true problem.

With the VLD it is very important that the axis of the bullet be as lined up with the axis of the bore as possible to shoot best. If you have a chamber that is not quite true or if 1 or 2 lands are not square (usually due to wear) you can have problems with the VLD. These are more difficult issues to sort out so just give them a try and if they don't work in that rifle try them in another. When they do work they can be a lot of fun to shoot.

Eric