How many loadings can be expected from brass that has been annealed every three firings?

I've read here about how annealing stretches brass life and all the other good stuff, but how do you know when enough is enough for the brass and buy new?

What are the signs that you need new brass?

First a confession; I have NEVER annealed brass.

For bottle necked cases, one of two things will tell you to discard it generally. One would be thinning above the web indicating an incipient head separation and the other would be loose primer pockets. Except in one instance in 222 cases years ago, the case has always been discarded before there was any necessity for annealing.

Straight walled cases in low pressure cartridges will generally have to be discarded because of splits around the case mouth. Cases for hight pressure cartridges may also develope thinning above the web. Both things generally occur before there is any necessity to anneal.

If you are drastically necking down brass to make another cartridge from it, then there might be a benefit from annealing.

As far as case life is concerned; it depends on the cartridge and the brass. In a study done a year or two ago in 308 cases, some brands of brass could only be reloaded less than 10 times (I don't remember the exact number) while other brands went over 20 times. In a cartridge like the 375 H&H Magnum that's tapered without much of a shoulder, case life given equal quality brass will be quite a bit less than that used for a cartridge like the 308 Winchester.

Some 30BR shooters have shot over 6000 rds with 30 brass and no annealing. I have put 1400 rds through mine with 100 brass and no annealing and they shoot great.

Annealing is most commonly needed when reloading military brass. On average your military brass it tougher, hence more brittle so it may need to be annealed from time to time. But regular commercial brass typically does not run into this problem.

I once heard if the brass has been trimmed 5 times and needs it again, it is probably past its useful life. The idea I believe is it is thin enough at this point that even if it shows no sign of stress it likely is on the edge.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Annealing is most commonly needed when reloading military brass. On average your military brass it tougher, hence more brittle so it may need to be annealed from time to time. But regular commercial brass typically does not run into this problem.

I'd sure like to disagree with this post, but I recently learned we should all totally AGREE with every post on every thread.
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Separate your Cases into Lots and once you begin shooting with them, keep them together. You want to do this because once you begin seeing problems with " 1 " Case in that Lot, you will quickly see it in others.

I've found Case Life generally gets decided by Split Necks(mostly avoidable by Annealing), Insipient Case Head Separations(mostly avoidable by P-FLRing) and Expanded Primer Pockets(mostly avoided by not using MAX Loads). How well your specific Die Set matches up with your Chamber and how close the Factory Case Dimensions are to the Chamber Dimensions can have a HUGE effect on Case Life.

To confuse the issue, I've seen very long Case Life(like Dwight mentioned), and some very short Case Life in the same rifle. This apparently had to do with the way the Cases were manufactured and we have no control over that.
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I sure hope that AGREES with everyone, because I sure do not want to list something different from everyone else.

I have never annealed any brass. And that includes brass that has been sized up and down. If the brass was for an exotic cartridge and was hard to come by, I can see where annealing so's to eke out every reload possible might be okay. But for garden variety brass.......nah! "....every three firings....." Holy Cow, you'll be spending all your time in the shop with none left over for shooting.

While I agree that GI brass is heavier, I don't see how that would lead to it needing annealing more often.

Thanks guys,

I've seen no split necks. I have only neck sized the brass in question; it chambers with a slight crush fit. I make sure all my brass chambers with a crush fit and P-FLR.

I started annealing after reading the benifits of it here; longer brass life, consistent neck tension etc. and have noticed better accuracy with annealed brass.

The reason for the question about how long brass can be expected to last is that I read on 6br.com that some guys toss their brass after trimming it 5 times. I guess it gets too thin. I read other statements that basically said that brass has a life and will have to be replaced.

I'm trying to figure out how to tell if it does. What signs to look for.

It seems to me that because of annealing, it may outlast any barrel I own!

I have 18 reloads on 1 lot of commercial 223 brass, loaded to medium pressures and collet-sized only except for the 8th and 15th sizings which were F/L. Had to trim it only once but it needs it again. To date I've lost 25% to loose primer pockets so I figure it's time to replace it. Yeah, I could get a few more reloads by switching to CCI primers but.....

Like you, I've found that annealed brass gives more accurate shooting; I figure it's a combination of more-even bullet pull and straighter loaded rounds as a result of the annealing.
Regards, Joe

Rick, I'd do a search here and also PM Seafire. I believe I read that on his 223, he has a lot that he is on the 60th firing with the annealing. I hope he chimes in.

10-4

quote:

While I agree that GI brass is heavier, I don't see how that would lead to it needing annealing more often.

Good question Wasbee....It's not because it's heavier. It's because it's made from a different, less malleable aloy.

Hotcore I agree (omg) with you regarding the the main reasons for case replacement. I had a few issues with split necks when I started reloading over 30 years ago, but have had very few with modern brass. IMO the modern brass alloys are much better then when you started reloaded back in the Spanish-American War.

RC, as you probably know, when the brass stretches and you have to trim, that brass is coming from somewhere. Some folks have determined that after xx trims, the case is getting too thin and you're looking at case failure of some sort.
A neck seperation that leaves the neck in the rifle can ruin your whole day (trip ) if you're 50 miles from road's end.

I use neck splits as a barameter of when do I need to dump a unit of brass and start afresh.

Not sure how this helps you but back in the early90's I started loading for my 309 JDJ in a pistol and carbine barrel with 100 nickel plated R-P cases. I lost maybe 2 in case forming/firing and the rest I reloaded till most of the nickel came off them through the years. They were reloaded literally dozens of times. Most were loaded to just under max loads.

Steve E...........

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Hotcore ...IMO the modern brass alloys are much better then when you started reloaded back in the Spanish-American War.

Us realllllly old folks do well to remember yesterda an hour ago.

There is NO recommended limit for reloading brass because the life of the brass depends on so many things...case size, pressure, die fit to chamber and type of die used...etc.

I reloaded and fired ONE IMI 223 case 50 times over two days...it was still going strong...WITHOUT ANNEALING...I used Redding FL bushing die, a warmish, most accurate load for a 40 gr VMax...not one time but twice using two cases picked out random from a lot of 20 55gr IMI factory loads. After two days...TWICE...I got totally tired of the whole business.

I have reloaded Rem 375 H&H belted mag cases 10 times using my "normal" stiff 300 gr Hornady SP load...and my other belted mags can do the same.

My 338-06 "normal" load of 4320 and Hornady 225 gr SP's have at least 15 load per case.

I fit my sizer dies to the chamber or use bushing dies and keep my loads warm but not hot.

You can waste a case on the first firing if the chamber is way out of spec...or from to hot a load.

For those interested goto 6mm BR, there is a very interesting article on annealing.

There is a whole lot of good information on reloading scattered all over the web and a TON more BS, mis-information, dis-information and out right lies also, so be careful of who you listen to.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Rick, I'd do a search here and also PM Seafire. I believe I read that on his 223, he has a lot that he is on the 60th firing with the annealing. I hope he chimes in.

Well here he is...

first, as mentioned by Foobar above... how much pressure ( how much you are stretching the brass) also can have some effect on the life span...

a little prudence at the power school can increase brass out substantially... I am learning that loads that seem to be in the old 40 to 45,000 CUP range ( old Mauser pressure ranges) are a perfect balance of velocity and pressure balance for case life..

the less the brass is stretched the longer it is going to last..

1.keeping it used in the same rifle..

2.annealing it every 4th ( every 3rd won't hurt) firing..

3. invest in a neck sizing die and use it instead of full length die.. ( a Lee Collet Die is perfect..)

4. Instead of a full length die, also invest in a Redding Body die to bump the shoulder back when needed.. that will cost $22 to $25 in most common calibers..after firing, check to see if the brass will chamber easily. if it won't then use the body die..

5. if bought separately both dies will cost you about as much as an average Rem or Win 100 pieces of brass at today's price.. you will get a very quick return on your investment...

The test lot of 223 brass Larry Refers to, that is on its 60th firing... well the test ended when I finally reloaded the test batch 100 ( yes 100!!) times....

the test rifle was a Remington 700 ADL...

the brass was Remington 223 brass, that actually was range brass that I picked up.. so it had been fired at least once before I got it..

55 grain Hornady bulk bullets were used.. CCI, Federal, Win and Rem primers were used...

Loads were used that listed the pressure in the 40 to 45K PSI or CUP range ( the numbers are not necessarily interchangable.. I know that)

out of the test batch of 10 pieces of brass, there was 3 casualties along the way...HOWEVER! NONE were neck splits or web splits...

all 3 casualties were at the reloading bench.. all falling victim to the Classic Seafire Micro Precision Screw UPs...

for a side story, 22.250 brass was also tested.. this was Winchester brass... this test series took a lot of 10 NEW pieces...these were loaded 60 times total...

there was only one neck split, and that was within the first 4 or 5 reloads.. so I rack that up to maybe a QC defect on that piece.. the other nine pieces of brass ran the entire 60 reloads...

60 was not a target number..50 was the target number... and after reaching that, I went ten more times.. at that position I had already proven my point plus gone an extra 20 %....

once again loads were with several powders and all using 55 grain Bulk Horandy SP bullets...with loads giving a pressure of 45,000 psi or so..

as far as annealing technique.. it is pretty low tech at Seafire's house..

8 gallon propane tank ( free).. a tree extension ( free) and a plumbers torch... ( $6.00)

one 223 cases, I hold those in the flame for 5 seconds... the 22.250 cases I hold in the flames 7 second.. same for 243, 260, 7/08 etc...

then they are dropped in a small metal pail ( Walmart $1.00 in the craft section) and then are allowed to air cool...no water is used..

after 100 reloads, I figure that was good enough.. think about it.. 100 reloads on 100 pieces of brass.. equals 10,000 shots..

what got me going on this little experiment, is that Lapuas web site made the claim that they have reloaded brass over 300 times....

so that is what I can pass on, as results of another one of my winter projects....

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
The reason for the question about how long brass can be expected to last is that I read on 6br.com that some guys toss their brass after trimming it 5 times. I guess it gets too thin. I read other statements that basically said that brass has a life and will have to be replaced.

I mentioned above that only once had I had brass that could have used annealing. It was 222 brass I had loaded up and on pretty much every one, the neck split when I shot it. I wasn't about to pull all the bullets, remove the primers and powder, etc. just to anneal the brass and save it so I just shot and then threw the brass away.

There are really only a few things to check to determine if brass is usable:

1. There should be no obvious splits or defects on external examination.

2. The primer pockets should be tight enough to hold the primer. If I prime a case and the primer goes in too easily, I mark the primer with a permanent marker and discard that case after I shoot it.

3. Optimally, you will discard the case before you get a head separation. The photo shows a case with the bright line above the web indicating an incipient head separation, a case that has separated and the straightened paperclip with the bent tip used to check for the groove that forms before a separation occurs. When you feel the groove forming, discard the case.

The story of the cases now. Being a frugal sort, I can't resist picking up range brass. I was hunting in AK and sighting in at the local dump, i.e., the local rifle range. I couldn't resist picking up the 300 Winchester Magnum cases I found laying there. I cleaned them up but neglected to run the wire down the inside, idiot that I was. It didn't stop there; I noticed the bright ring around the case above the web and thought, "maybe that's a sign of an incipient head separation." but went ahead and shot them anyway. The first one shot without a hitch. On the second cartridge, I had a head separation.

The good news is, that a head separation isn't the end of the world in a strong firearm. No damage was sustained by the rifle or shooter and the broken off distal portion of the case was easily removed.

I'm a believer in annealing. And i also do it the no frills way as described above. What sold me was my experience with 300RUM brass. Loading to near max I was only getting a few firings. After annealing the next series of 20 rounds lasted 3x's a slong. With the RUM's I do anneal after every second firing.

Over 50 times with .308Win, bacause LEE Collect dies and T-chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:


2.annealing it every 4th ( every 3rd won't hurt) firing..


after 100 reloads, I figure that was good enough.. think about it.. 100 reloads on 100 pieces of brass.. equals 10,000 shots..

Did you use the 'anneal every 4th firing' routine with this .223 test? That is, you annealed the 100 case batch 25 times throughout the test?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core: I’d sure like to disagree with this post, but I recently learned we should all totally AGREE with every post on every thread.

It goes with an old saying....

"If you don't have anything nice to say than don't say anything at all"

Another good one....

"If you don't have anything constructive to add, please subtract"


As far as the question involved of the topic....

I keep my brass in lots and count the number of shots per batch. When I get a failure or a loose pocket I check all of the lot# for further problems.

I have not annealed to a great extent so I can't give you any data on that thought.

ive had brass last 20 firings and had it last 3. Biggest variable is going to be how hot you load it. Back off a grain or two from max loads and your brass will thank you.

I have a feeling with annealing, it will last forever.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
"If you don't have anything nice to say than don't say anything at all"

Another good one....

"If you don't have anything constructive to add, please subtract" ...

Excellent points Ted.

So if we see a post that we know if the advice is followed, a problem could be created for a Beginner, it is far better to just remain quiet and let them find out on their own - even if it Ka-Booms them. I fully understand your logic.

So to modify your thoughts to be in thought-police compliance, they would go:
"If you don't have anything to say that agrees with wrong, incorrect, stupid and/or totally dangerous posts then don't say anything at all"

"If you don't have anything constructive to add to wrong, incorrect, stupid and/or totally dangerous posts, please subtract"

Yeah, I get it!

"Can't we all just get along?!?!?!!?!?" - drug-using, brain-dead Rodney King 1992.

If I missed reading this above, I will only add that in the past, every time you resize belted magnum brass (.264 Winchester Magnum, 6.5mm Remington Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum, 300 H&H Magnum, 300 Norma Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum, 300 Weatherby Magnum (ibid. for .257, .270, 7mm, 340 and .375), .338 Winchester Magnum, 8mm Remington Magnum, .338 Winchester Magnum, 375 H&H Magnum, 416 Taylor Magnum {A-Square}, 416 Remington Magnum and 458 Lott) the case wall just in front of the "gurtle" (belt) expanded, and there was nothing the full length die could do about it. On the third or fourth loading, the cartridge simply would not fit due to the out of specification case wall in front of the belt.

Now, Larry Willis has designed, patented and marketed an after-size collet type die made out of D-2 steel where it counts. I use that on every reloading cycle. There is a nice feature on the top of the die - a circle. Take your fully traditionally resized case and drop it down through the cylindrical section at the top of the Willis "after die". If the case falls al the way in, and you get to here a satisfying clunk; then it does not need any post sizing sizing.

If the case hangs up at all, it goes into the pile with all the other cases scheduled for remediation. The case head spaces off of the shoulder, case growth almost completely stops (IF you use collet type dies, or full length neck honed dies).

Even I was able to do the math long hand. I will be able to pay for both of my heavy duty annealing machines in about three months.

When I get loose primer pockets, I polish the cases until they look like a counter display at Tiffany's in New York, then I give them to an acquaintance/mooch with a lecture on the dangers of "hot-roding" reloaded cartridges...

John ; I took some really Great advice from Woods and didn't buy Larry Willis's dodad !.

I neck size shoulder bump .002" and I've gotten over 10 reloads on my newly configure brass .

Configured as in total Case prep !. I've yet to find a real need for that dodad thingy !.

An I load 3 belted Magnums with NO PROBLEMS what's so ever !.

I replace mine after I've lost too many in the long grass!

quote:

If I missed reading this above, I will only add that in the past, every time you resize belted magnum brass (.264 Winchester Magnum, 6.5mm Remington Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum, 300 H&H Magnum, 300 Norma Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum, 300 Weatherby Magnum (ibid. for .257, .270, 7mm, 340 and .375), .338 Winchester Magnum, 8mm Remington Magnum, .338 Winchester Magnum, 375 H&H Magnum, 416 Taylor Magnum {A-Square}, 416 Remington Magnum and 458 Lott) the case wall just in front of the "gurtle" (belt) expanded, and there was nothing the full length die could do about it. On the third or fourth loading, the cartridge simply would not fit due to the out of specification case wall in front of the belt.

I have magnum brass I've loaded 25 times, and I've never had this problem.

44 mag. I have brass I bought in about 1990. It's been reloaded a fair amount, stiff loads too, about 300 pcs. I bought some new, once fired stuff at a gun show, figuring I'd need it. Still in the bags. A few of the cases have split at the mouth, but it's 20 yr old brass, fired in pistols and rifles both.

I see a lot of split .223 brass.

quote:

There is NO recommended limit for reloading brass because the life of the brass depends on so many things...case size, pressure, die fit to chamber and type of die used...etc.

Correct.
In a good set up with a decent chamber and a front locking bolt gun the primer pocket gets loose from having so many primers pressed in and decapped. This usually happens between 30 and 50 loads. If the chamber is a little larger than optimum the case body will crack, split or burn through about just below the annealed area.

All this assumes you start with good brass.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

I replace mine after I've lost too many in the long grass!

I hate it when that happens...

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:


2.annealing it every 4th ( every 3rd won't hurt) firing..


after 100 reloads, I figure that was good enough.. think about it.. 100 reloads on 100 pieces of brass.. equals 10,000 shots..

Did you use the 'anneal every 4th firing' routine with this .223 test? That is, you annealed the 100 case batch 25 times throughout the test?

Sorry, been at Boy Scout camp for a week with Seafire Jr and the troop...just got back last night after being gone for a week..

to answer the question, yes the brass was annealed again each 4th loading so that would add up to 25 times for that period...

Holding it in the flame of a propane torch for 6 to 8 seconds.. and let it air dry on that one...now I do it for 5 seconds for 223 brass..