Hi guys,

I have worked up a a load with 168 TSXs over 59 grains of H4350 to take on my first Plainsgame safari this summer and have noticed somethign strange about the amount of recoil this load generates compared to the top 150 grain and 180 grain hornady soft point loads.

The load shows no special pressure signs that I can see, the bolt lift is fine, no extractor marks, primers look ok etc. The recoil of this load compared to the other, also top end, loads feels much higer. It is difficult to explain but the rifle seems to jump more, perhaps it is more flip than straight back recoil but it is noticably different to the other loads I shoot through this rifle.

Has anyone else noticed this sort of thing or am I loosing the plot navel-gazing ahead of Africa?

With thanks,

IMR 4350 definitely kicks me harder than IMR 4064. That is a pretty healthy load you are shooting. I use 55 gns with 180's.

Thank you for the reply Airgun1, the strange thing is that the other's use H4350 as well!

The load is the book maximum for the bullet and powder combination but it has proved ok in my rifle. I use Norma cases that have a bit more internal capacity than the typical US, Remmington, Nosler custom and Winchester, brass I have tired so far.

It also has the advantage of shooting into one hole, whereas the 58 grain load shoots into about 1 3/4"....Bloody typical!

I have noticed that with some of th H powders a significant increase in felt recoil at the top end of the max range. Back it down a couple of grains if you can without losing too much accuracy. That combo doesn't have to be screaming to get the job done.

I wonder? The TSX is a solid monometal bullet while the 150 and 180 gr. bullets are cup and core. The TSX, being solid copper would take a bit more force when shot causing pressures to rise somwhat over what they are using cup and core bullets. Guess what I'm trying to say it the extra resistance to entering the rifling would cause pressure to be a bit hight, thus more recoil at the bullet's exit. The fact that you're at or close to a max load from the powder/bullet combo would make this seem to be even more logcal to me.
I guess my guess is as good as anyone else's.
Paul B.

Paul, I think you have it backwards. The TSX is a banded bullet and actually operates at lower pressure as there is less surface bearing area...

450 400 has it right. The grooves on the TSX reduce the bearing surface. The result is pressures are reduced. Your load is over Book in the Barnes Manual #4. They recommend 55.5 grains as maximum for the 169 TSX yeilding 2825 fps at 97% load density. Hogdon however lists 59.0 as max. I would guess that if your feeling a lot more you are probably at a high pressure threshhold. I would back down and find another accuracy point. It will repeat lower. just be patient. I would also fathom a guess that you wouldn't want your hunt ruined by loads not working correctly. If you're going to err, err on the conservative side. I've never been but I have read enough times that loads magically get hotter in Africa. Be careful have a good trip. DW

I wonder if the Hod Man is using the bullet weight and not the capacitiy in thier load. I would look to barnes for the correct load max as those bullets are quite long and would negate your additional case cappacity.

The Barnes manual lists the max load for your bullet and powder at 55.5 grains of powder, so according to the manual, you are well over the max with your 59 grains of powder, therefore the significant increase in felt recoil.

If I were you, I'd drop back to 53 grains of H4350 and work up and not exceed 56 grains. You'll get all the velocity you need and I'm sure the recoil will drop significantly.

I've found that 2,800 fps is the magic number for my 30-06, so if you have a chronograph, you could use the powder combo/velocity as a measure for you max load, but as it stands, you are certainly over pressure whether your cases indicate it or not.

Try the 180 gr TSX if you don't get the accuracy you are looking for. I use the 200 gr TSX in my 8x57 and have take around 20 animals with it. The 180 gr will work great in the '06.

Good luck and good shooting!

quote:

Originally posted by 450/400:
The Barnes manual lists the max load for your bullet and powder at 55.5 grains of powder, so according to the manual, you are well over the max with your 59 grains of powder, therefore the significant increase in felt recoil.

If I were you, I'd drop back to 53 grains of H4350 and work up and not exceed 56 grains. You'll get all the velocity you need and I'm sure the recoil will drop significantly.

I've found that 2,800 fps is the magic number for my 30-06, so if you have a chronograph, you could use the powder combo/velocity as a measure for you max load, but as it stands, you are certainly over pressure whether your cases indicate it or not.

Try the 180 gr TSX if you don't get the accuracy you are looking for. I use the 200 gr TSX in my 8x57 and have take around 20 animals with it. The 180 gr will work great in the '06.

Good luck and good shooting!

450/400 has it right. Also don't forget it is going to be somewhat hotter in Africa than London so you don't want to be pushing pressure limits.

I have shot target loads of 168 SMK and 175 SMK with 55.0 grains IMR 4350 in weather up to 100F.

Your load, though with a different bullet, is much hotter than what I would want to try in 90F to 100 F.

The 168 SMK was going about 2700 fps, the 175 2650 fps.

Be respectful of heat. I developed loads that were perfectly fine in 60 F weather, and they pierced primers in 90 F weather.

I've not gotten to 59 H4350 with the ttsx in my o6. I can say that 58 got me 2850 out of a 22.5" barrel and good accuracy. I also have quickload and play with it and compare my loads to what it predicts. Not totally perfectly scientific but many times very very close.
I think I can say that you are operating very close to 64/65k with that load of 59 grains. Like others say...if you get into some hot dusty climate I think you could get over max pretty ez. If I were you I'd see if the accuracy is there at the 57'ish level...definately would not go over 58. Just my opinion....and I think you came for some to weigh against others.
One last comment on the ttsx vrs other bullets of the same class. For such a long bullet it probably doesn't make more pressure than others. I have alot of nosler j4 168 comp bullets 2nds picked up off shooters proshop. They always clock the same speed as ttsx and they are considerable shorter. If I remember each groove on the ttsx is about .040" so three of them does "erase" brg area a quite a bit on that long bullet.

I see three separate issues here.

Firstly, Your max load & velocity needs to be confirmed with appropriate data. What is the Chronograph reading you get? If your velocity is above max, then the cause is self explanatory.

Secondly, the view that TSX has lower pressures needs to be considered carefully. The so called driving bands are really just grooves. The shank still bears on the lands & therefore the bearing surface is the same and may be more as the bullets are longer. The guys in the double rifle forum keep harping on this point.

Thirdly, the seating depth of Barnes TSX bullets is recommended at 0.050" off the grooves. The lead core bullets can be seated a lot more close to the grooves & may even touch them. Your recoil will be more if your seating depth is close to the grooves.

I pay careful attention to all these points when using TSX in my various hunting rifles and have had great success. I also blew primers and had gas on my face the first time I reloaded Barnes XBT bullets 15 years ago!

If the primer pocket is still tight then your seating depth was fine..

the load you used is a pretty standard load with the Barnes.. so nothing is out of the ordinary with your load...

I have several buddies who hunt with the exact same load...I've seen it hit game and it does a real good job..

Thank you for all your help gentlemen, the depth of knowledge on this forum is truly excellent.

Dwheels: Thank you for looking it up for me. It is news to me however that Barnes list a maximum of 55.gr of this powder for this powder and bullet as the only data I was able to find was the Hogdon maximum of 59 gr. I have the Hogdon and Vihtavouri loading manuals as those are powders I use. Thank you for the heads up as I was leary of going too far below the max published because of those dire warnings one always hears about reducing the charge of slow buring powders too much and blowing the rifle up...

You are quite right about the reliability of the load being the most important thing. The load I am using has given no problems in the 25 degree mini-heatwave (Stop laughing at the back, it's the UK!) but I appreciate that Africa could be much hotter than that. On the other hand I have been lead to believe that Hogdon Powders are relatively heat insensitive, much more so than IMR for example.

450/400:

How are you K? Thank you for your reply. What you have said makes a lot of sense. I will try a series of loads just as you say. I think I will need to start as low as that because the accuracy node appears right at 59 gr, with my 57 gr starting loads grouping about 2". I will post a target shot with the 57, 58 and 59 grain load when I get home tonight.

I think your idea of moving up to the 180 grain TSX might be a good one to explore as i've got a nice low pressure load with 180 gr Hornady interlocks for the big reds and boar over here that works well. If I could load the TSX to the same trajectory I would already "know" the load so to speak.

Kraky: Thank you for your thoughts, you are completely correct I was hoping the vastly more experienced chaps would come through with some ideas and the certainly have!

I will try from 53gr and work up until I have found good accuracy. I also have some H489h and some H4831 to play with.

Naki: Thanks mate the OAL is 3.250 so the bullets are well shy of the lands. I will be chrono-ing the load next weekend hopefully so will report back.

Seafire: Thanks for your reply, it seems that there may be some conflicting data floating about but having fired only a few rounds of the TSX load I haven't had a chance to do a shakedown test on a single piece of brass to see how the primer pockets have fared.

I did find this page when researching the load, it seemd fairly kosher at the time :LINK The perils of internet load data I guess....

I am doing well, Ginger and I are heading back to Africa this August. Keep us posted on your results.

You get away a bit don't you?

I'll be in SA from the 1st to the 15th of August, maybe we'll swap those stories sooner than one might expect!

Waidmansheil,

GH

Wow! I'll be in Namibia on those same dates! What are you after?

The usual for a first timer - warthog, impala, blesbok, kudu, eland, bushbuck etc.

I don't have a wishlist for animals, rather just wander off into the Bush and try and get lucky.

I can't wait!, there may be a day or two on the rock pigeons but that's mainly for Kiri and Dig; I'd rather be stalking!

This thread mate: http://forums.accuratereloadin...2100588/m/7111022921

You sir are corresponding with one third of "Team Amateur UK"


8)

Well that looks like a great trip to make. I thought about you last week when I was in Scotland playing golf with a client.

I saw pheasants and wood pigeons and decided that Ginger and I definitely need to make a trip over for hunting.

Aargh... Golf!!!

I had to give it up after accidentally killing a woodpecker.

If you'd like to come shooting in the UK I have a few contacts

There is a nice estate near London that does driven pheasants and duck, the shoot captain is a good mate of mine, should you fancy something altogether grander we would have to travel a little farther afield but all things are possible.

I'll send you my email addy and we'll defintely put something in the diary mate.

EDIT:

I forgot to mention the deer!

We have six species and something should be in season at any time of the year but obviously the fall is the time for the main events. Later on in the year, towards november december more or less everything is in season.

Have a look at the AR European hunts for taster and i'll see what I can dig up.

H4350 gave me hard bolt lift in a 243 on a load that was perfectly safe in cool temps.

Barnes bullets require Barnes specific loading data or at the very least cross referencing with Barnes data.

With lots of experience you get a feel for each companies data but at the very least you should arm yourself with all the free guides plus 3 factory ones and take downloads from FACTORY sites. Barnes have a lot of load data for TSX on their site.

I've found powder manafacturers to be rather more generous in charge weights than bullet manafacturers.

Take care using Viht data - some of it is extremely hot in cartridges only found in modern actions hence the desirability of cross referencing.