these are the loads I shot from 48-54gr of 4064 in dad's 30-06 this morning...

the only ones that looked iffy were the 48 and 48.5s... wierd.
L 2 R
49, 48.5, 48, 48 (this case split, see pics in my other thread)


L 2 R
54, 53.5, 53, 52.5, 52, 51.5, 51, 50.5, 50, 49.5


thoughts, comments?

Reading primers is like reading tea leaves, well almost. I don't see anything that would indicate over-pressure.

Maybe...as Luckyducker points out, reading primers is like reading tea leaves.

The primers appear to be flattened. That may be a sign of excessive pressure..or not. The top row,case on the right has what could be a mark from the plunger hole...a sure sign of excessive pressure, if that's what it is.

What has worked for me is a combination of tools. I use a chronograph, multiple load manuals (loaddata.com), and observation. Loose primer pockets and short case life are (usually) a good indicator of too much pressure.

You have to look at a combination of factors, then be prudent. Remember, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

405wcf

HELL YES
way in the @#$@#$@ over what I will load to

first pic, 4th case, clear extactor mark
1st case is SPLATTERED .. if you pop that primer it will look like a top hat.
second case is splattered
third acase is about the max *I* am comfy with primers

second pic
1, 2, 4, 7,8,9,10 .. WAY splattered.

look at second pic, 3rd case.. see how the shoulder of the primer is still slightly rounded? it's not FLATTENED across the case head?

a primer should not look like putty, filling the pocket.. if you pop it out and it looks like a top hat, its too hot.. it should still have rounded shoulders.

that AINT reading tea leaves.. and if you keep loading that hot (or hotter) you'll be reading brail, not primers.


Look, the last 100 FPS don't mean squat.

Did you have any other pressure signs? Sticky bolt lift for example?

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
...if you pop it out and it looks like a top hat, its too hot.. ...

or it can mean excessive headspace or excessive resizing.

quote:

Originally posted by delloro:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
...if you pop it out and it looks like a top hat, its too hot.. ...

or it can mean excessive headspace or excessive resizing.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
.. if you pop it out and it looks like a top hat, its too hot..

Depends, #1 is "normal" for a top of book load, #2 is a tad warm, and #3 is over the top (note the color and shrinkage).


As far as the "flattened" primer thing goes, that methiod works best with convex (domed) primers, NOT the flat bottom ones we have today. The problem is that the majority of reloaders today have never even seen a convex primer, let alone fired one.

COULD be excessive headspace, -- HOWEVER, giving the man the benefit of the doubt of actually reloading exactly the same way on resizing, and its' not consistent, its probably not. Flattened primers in excessive headspace IS a high pressure load, as a mild/middle load results in primer setback.

tailgunners pictures..
1 - warm - this is what *I* feel is a top load
2 HOT - yeah, you can "get away with it" once in awhile .. if i needed that extra 100fps, i'd buy a bigger caliber
3: OUTRAGEOUS and dangerous --

I plan to be an OLD reloader, not a bold one.

quote:

tailgunners pictures..
1 - warm - this is what *I* feel is a top load
2 HOT - yeah, you can "get away with it" once in awhile .. if i needed that extra 100fps, i'd buy a bigger caliber
3: OUTRAGEOUS and dangerous --

I've had loads that didn't deform the primer as bad as #1 and couldn't get more than 3-4 loadins out of the brass because they would no longer hold a primer.

If I had been working up and saw the primer at 52.5grs I would have probably stopped. The fact that 52.5 shows "high" pressure to me then the next to are more normal shows why looking at primers only doesn't really tell you what your pressures are.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

first pic, 4th case, clear extactor mark
1st case is SPLATTERED .. if you pop that primer it will look like a top hat.
second case is splattered
third acase is about the max *I* am comfy with primers

second pic
1, 2, 4, 7,8,9,10 .. WAY splattered.

look at second pic, 3rd case.. see how the shoulder of the primer is still slightly rounded? it's not FLATTENED across the case head?

this rifle has excessive headspace, and it splatters factory loads.

the 1st pic, 4th case is the MINIMUM LOAD (48gr 4064 in a 30-06) it split the case radially. the one you say is "ok" (3rd primer) is the SAME POWDER CHARGE...

there is NO correlation between powder charge and primer markings... with the sole exception of the "over max" 53.5 and 54gr loads (second pic far left and next to it) otherwise, the lower charges are WAY within range and still flattening primers.

never had a bolt stick, and #8 or #9 on the second pic is about the same as factory ammo comes out of this gun.

I'd love to believe that there is some reliable correlation between primers and pressure, but this experience is leading me to believe otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
If I had been working up and saw the primer at 52.5grs I would have probably stopped. The fact that 52.5 shows "high" pressure to me then the next to are more normal shows why looking at primers only doesn't really tell you what your pressures are.

combining this with the fact that 52.5 was flattened no worse than one at 48, 50, or 51... didn't really give me much to work on.

from what I can figure, it needs to have the barrel set-back about half an inch and everything trued up... I'd imagine that the lost barrel lengh will be offset by the reduced jump to the lands as it comes to velocity.

and as it worked out 51.5gr was the hottest load that still sat on a "node" so I'll be going up/down in .25gr increments from 51-52 for the final evaluation. also hoping that once-fired and P-FL resizing on this brass will tighten things up a bit.

Dark Helmet
so, the split case spent energy to splitting the case, no wonder the primer didn't look as bad.

Look .. in this rifle's case, these loads are over pressure and UNSAFE ...

what happens if you neck size these and shoot them again, if the cases will hold primers?

If i saw one of these splattered primers, i would not shoot this rifle again until corrected. to me, its like driving on a flat tire.

i don't recall my opinion on the loads, and they largely appear to be over pressure, but, that its headspace, i would NOT fire these loads in that rifle until corrected.

oh, yeah... headspace doesn't get BETTER on shooting more

My first thought was excessive sizing, moving the shuolder back WAY too far.

Even if the rifle has excessive headspace that need only be relivant for factory ammo. A reloader should simply size his cases to fit and there's no longer a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:

Even if the rifle has excessive headspace that need only be relivant for factory ammo. A reloader should simply size his cases to fit and there's no longer a problem.

this is what makes the most sense to me since these were, in fact, unfired "factory" cases.

In my experience primers do show increasing pressure signs, especially when evaluated in a ladder series of incrementally increasing powder charges, that is everything else being kept equal. But, I still keep close track of primer pocket loosening, ejector marks, and I'm starting to measure extractor groove expansion (EGE). Keeping an eye on a number of pressure indicators that give clues when a case is about to fail is good practice.

It's disturbing that the firing pin indent is not showing the same apparent pressure.

Excess headspace and dry cases in a dry chamber. Chamber needs polishing, headspace needs correcting (or at least checking). Something to realize about excess head space is that it's like swinging a hammer - the longer the travel, the greater the impact force! That's what breaks locking lugs off! Polishing the chamber or lubing the cases won't help much - maybe a little. But it will also hide the excess headspace problem.