Hi!
I have experienced some erratic velocities and pressure signs with lilgun and I wonder if there are any other reports of this?

Pressure signs sometimes start at 12.00 grains lilgun in a .22 hornet case and a 40-46gn bullet. Some cartridges show no signs at all, while some have pierced primers, expanded primer pockets or get stuck in the barrel. Precision is erratic as well. Chrono data shows extreme variations, 300-500 fps is not uncommon in a 5 shot string.
When using other powders and keeping all other things identical these issues do not exist. It is only with lilgun that these issues arise.

All charges are individually weighed with repeated resolution and accuracy of 0.00 grains. That is, a load of 12,00 grains are 12,00 grains and not 12,01 grains or 11,99 grains. The accuracy and repeatability of each load is confirmed 3 times per loaded round. This takes time, but eliminates the possibility of varying load weights. The accuracy in the load weights are one order of magnitude better than the load weight.

Depending on cartridge the need for accuracy in load weight might vary.
In .375HH a variation of 0,5gn might be acceptable since the case is relatively large and the difference in energy or point of impact will not be noted for this small variation on a powder charge between 70-80gn. The .22 Hornet on the other hand has a much smaller case, and there a change of 0,1gn might be very noticeable. Therefore I weigh all loads to one decimal point finer than that.
That is, each load is 10 times more accurate than the 0,1gn variaton in the load ladder for the hornet.
For my .375HH I do not bother to see if a load has a 75,00 or 75,01gn powder charge. For most of the time, 0,5-1gn steps is good enough to find where it shoots hole in hole. Velocity varies within 15fps with all of hodgdon and vihtavuori and norma powders.

The .22 hornet is different.

Today I went to the range to check a load for capercallie and goose, ww cases, pmcntsr primer, lilgun, Speer 46gn SP w cannelure bullet, loaded 3 cartridges of each weight with 0,1gn interval. Had previously tested 3 shots at 12,00gn so this ladder started at 12,10gn and ended at published max at 13.00gn. Bullet is crimped at the cannelure since previous experience has shown that crimping gives less variations with lilgun. All cases trimmed, calibrated, ultrasonicly cleaned and only fired in the same rifle. Thus, as clean as it can be to avoid possible error sources.

Started with:
12,10gn 3 shots, ca 2 inch group at 100m, soot on one primer, one slightly flat and the third looked normal. No obvious sign on the cases that pressure was high could be seen at the range.
Closer inspection at home showed slight flatting of all primers.

12.20gn 1 shot. Impact 2” high to the left, 10-o´ clock. Bolt very hard to open, case stuck on bolt, had to remove bolt from the rifle and pry the case away. Primer not existing. primer pocket oval, approximately 1mm larger than before firing. That is ca 20% increase in primer pocket size.
Range session ended. Will pull bullets and destroy powder in the remaining 26 cases.

Previously I have gone through 2 bottles of lilgun without any problems. Sure, the variations in velocity have been around 200fps but the groups have been spot on, and I could switch from FMJ to varmint bullets without adjusting the scope. With other powders I have to adjust the scope.
40-46gn bullets of very variyng shape have given the same point of impact, 50gn bullets are not stable.
40gn v-max (pointed tip), 40gn Bee (flat tip), 45gn S&B fmj (blunt ogival), 45gn rws fmj (blunt ogival), 46gn Rem hp (big Hp) etc all hit the same spot and 5 shots are often covered with only one 17mm sticker (the same as is used on bulls eye pistol targets). Same primers, cases, etc. All things identical except for the powder canister. The first 2 canisters were good but now on the third one I suddenly get these problems. Since I have used the same method, primers, cases etc for the last 4000 shots without a single malfunction I find it hard to believe that the problem lies in these components. Everything from a .32acp to .375HH without a single malfunction, except the combination of lilgun and .22 hornet.

Reloading is a hobby that requires repeatability and constant improvement in removing possible error sources to achieve the intended goal.

I would love to be able to solve this and continue to use lilgun in the hornet since it extends the range atleast 100 yards over other powders.

Any and all input on this subject will be appreciated!

Sincerely

Daniel

Same thing happened to me with the 25-20 and lil-gun. An under max charge is giving me sticky cases and higher velocities than book.

I can probably back off the charge and watch the velocity till it goes to the range it shouuld be in but I will just use a different powder instead.

What you describe really sounds like a pressure spike. What can happen on a "safe" max load ( out of a known type pressure gun) is that in your rifle there 1.could be a slight resistance or LACK of resistance where the bullet jumps into the lands by the primer force and slows down. The gas pressure strikes the base of the slowed bullet and builds up to a higher pressure if only for a microsecond.In a small,soft case such as the Hornet this is a big deal.
2.On the resistance side from the point of ignition, the powder can be confined long enough that the shock and heat wave moves through powder much faster than the normal burn rate and causes a "spike" in the pressure and causes what you see. A different bullet shape will sometimes stop this from happening.
3. Moisture content can also cause this type problem where the loaded cases had gone from a very warm environment,as in your vehicles floor with the heat on,to the very cold shooting range where condensation will delay the powders burn rate causing inconsistent pressures.
I have seen these type conditions cause blow primers in my 5.7 MMJ carbine and a Martini Cadet rifle in .218 Bee using this powder.
I had to back off the charge weight by .3 or more grains and was never satisfied with the results.
I tried the following:
Charge weight verification as you did
bullet weight
primer lot numbers changed
cases water weight volume checked
flash holes reamed on the inside
crimp pressure changed
all brass fired formed in the rifle
None of these techniques stopped the "spike" on some of the loaded cartridges.
I changed the powder. Problem went away.

i've had no problems with lil gun in hornet or hornet, but in 17 ackley hornet it gave weird results. such as decreasing the amount raised the pressures.

In my Savage Model 40 .22 Hornet, it shoots and functions best with 11.4 grs of Lil Gun. At around 12 grs, some cases were hard to extract. I am using Federal small pistol primers, Sierra 40gr Blitzking bullets, and seating it at minimum OAL, as that is where I get my best accuracy. My velocities are between 2650-2720. Accuracy at 100 yds is 5 shots under 1", which is not too bad for a Hornet. The .22 Hornet was never meant to be a screamer.

I've been using Lilgun in my Hornet (Ruger M77 Sporter) for about 20 years, which is about when Lilgun came on the market.

I have never experienced this problem. I have recorded SD's of over 100fps, but the accuracy was still good.

My load is usually 13.0grs under a 45gr bullet, with speeds in the upper 2,800fps.

I do have a very accurate load for a 52gr Sierra HPBTM using 11.7gr and speeds are about 2,650fps.

I have used two different lots of Lilgun and found them to be VERY different. The first lot gave extremely wide variations in velocities in a .22 Hornet; but it also yielded excellent performance in a magnum handgun cartridge with very heavy bullets.

The next lot of Lilgun I tried gave outstanding performance in a .22 Hornet with fairly consistent high velocities. Then I tried it in a .218 Bee with what should have been a less-than-maximum load and it pierced primers in two different rifles!

Once I use the "good" lot up in my .22 Hornet I will forgo buying any more of it. I'll go back to AA1680 for the Hornet (and the Bee). It doesn't produce quite the velocity of Lilgun, but it is very consistent, accurate, and never shows pressure excursions.

there was discussion here a couple weeks ago. I sent an email to Hodgdon and have not heard any thing.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6711043/m/7491008602

Hmm, strange for sure. About the only 2 things that jumped out at me was, first, you're crimping your bullets, and second, I'm not familiar with that primer.

I'm using Lil-Gun in my hornet single shot, and I NEVER crimp bullets. Are you absolutely sure your case lengths are identical on your hornet brass? I'm sure you know if your brass length varies, your amount of crimp will also vary? Maybe try not crimping your cases at all.

And if you've always used that same primer, then this isn't an issue, but I'm using Remington 6 1/2 primers in mine. Too "hot" a primer seems to work adversely to accuracy with the tiny case and Lil-Gun powder, causing pressure and velocity to jump around.

Wish I knew the answer to your issue.
I have ued LilGun extensively in a number of hornets with zero issues.
My load is Win cases, 13.2 grains, sm pistol primer, and 40 grain Berger bullets.

Huglu i had the same problem with a k-hornet. ive only bought one pound of it.to many other trouble free powders out there.

Gents!

Thanks for replies and suggestions!

I am still puzzled with this behavior.

The primer is a non-toxic, heavy metal free small rifle primer that has never failed and it leaves less soot and residue and makes cleaning easier than the other "normal" primers I have used. I have used that make for .32acp up to .375HH without any issues regardless of caliber or use. I have gone through around 5000 so far.

Next issue, cases are trimmed and of the same make from the same lot and have similar life history. There are larger variation in the length of the bullets than in the cases. The magazine of the rifle is the bottleneck in this situation. To seat the bullet on the lands I have to convert the rifle to a one-shot gun.

The use of crimp is due to previous suggestions to reduce velocity and pressure variations in theory. The crimp is supposed to keep the bullet from moving until the ignition flash from the primer has worked its way through the powder column, and thereby removing secondary explosion effects.

Previous tests between crimp or no-crimp has shown no difference in performance. I have tested both with and without, and the only thing I have found is less SD-variations with crimp than without. Velocities are less varied with crimp than without.

I am not interested in screaming-barrel-eating-velocities for the hornet.

However, the US-powders are more intended for varmint purposes than the european powders.
Here, the hornet is often a bird rifle. Normal prey include ptarmigans, capercaillies, geese, foxes, doves, hares etc.

To be able to take a capercaillie in mid winter at 200m distance in -30°C from the top of a pine tree I need more performance than what Vihtavuori powder will deliver. Vihtavuori is an excellent powder out to 120 m but drops fast beyond that. I use it for FMJ loads for grouse and ptarmigans on shorter distances.

I need enough velocity and energy to make a clean kill on a fox-sized target at around 220 yards. I do not need to hit a bumble-bee in the eye at 1000 yards... :-)
US powders can add 100 meters/yards over the european ones and that is what I am interested in.

As I have said previously, it is now, on the third jug of powder that I see these issues.

Around 1200 rounds of lilgun loads without issues, and now these strange things... I am puzzled.

Sincerely
Daniel

Daniel, I understand your puzzlement. You would think that if you don't change anything, nothing should change... unfortunately... that is not always the case with my favorite components. I must be ready to adjust if needed.

Of all the variables you have addressed, I would first recommend changing the primer to a small pistol primer and re-work the load. In the Hornet, very little differences make big differences, and less is often more. The small pistol primer is more than adequate to ignite the powder, and would be a better match to the small size of the case.

Regarding the crimping issue, it may be advisable to re-work the load without crimp, and see what happens.

I have also found that seating the bullet farther away from the lands actually increased accuracy, while reducing pressures.

quote:

As I have said previously, it is now, on the third jug of powder that I see these issues.

Huglu: Perhaps you didn't closely read my post. From your extensive description I'm certain that the issues you're experiencing are from the variation between lots of Lilgun. You got two "good" lots before you got a "bad" one. I got a "bad" one first, then a "good" one.

As I indicated, I choose not to play the roulette wheel any further and will rely on AA-1680 for my Hornets (and K-Hornet), as well as my .218 Bee. If you can get some AA-1680, simply stuff the case as full as possible and still seat the bullet on it (up to about 45 grains). I suspect that you'll like the result.

Gents!
Thanks for replies!
I will try to get my hands on some AA-1680 and give it a try!

Sincerely
Daniel

Might be outside the boundaries of this thread here, BUT, Li'l Gun is used to charge .17 HMR I believe?, many many stuck bullets / squibs etc over here, so much so that the .17 HMR is causing people to speak with our Health & Safety executive about these issues, so do any of us reckon that the powder itself is inconsistent in it's QC ??

The velocity variations you cite would make me nervous. That, I might blame on a Chrony, if that is what is being used. Powder lots can be that haywire, not often it happens, but, it can. The other thing could be primer ignition. You say you are using a non-toxic primer, I've seen some military tests that didn't favour them too well towards being consistent. Did you get into a new lot of primers? Hornet is small enough to have them make a difference.
And the crimp can be abandoned on that load. if you really think you need to have a better grip on the bullet, shave down the sizing button on the die another .001 or so.

I used to use LilGun in my bolt 300 Whisper(aka 300 Blackout) with heavy bullets, ie 220 to 240 gr., subsonic speed-usually right at 1050 over an Oehler. Thought I loved the powder until it got warm outside and then I started blowing primers and velocities went haywire-no telling what I would get as they went up into the supersonic range-no need for the chrony, you heard the crack. Accuracy went to hell.

Put it off my list and now use another powder with much more temp stability and consistency.

Cannot tell you why but I can verify screwy pressure spikes with only moderate increases in ambient temp.

Gary