Is your issue with availability of brass a supply issue or an importation restriction issue?
I have quite a few primed Kynoch cases (berdan unfortunately) which you can have if that is possible.
Otherwise, I think getting one of our fellow members who plans on a trip to SA with a 404 to bring extra ammo which he can leave the brass behind would be a good idea.

Gert - have you tried suppliers like Zimbi Books & Guns (Pretoria), Safari & Outdoor (Just around the corner from Zimbi), Formalito (Centurion), Kalahari Arms (Jhb)? I can't say for sure that they'd have stocks of .404, but I've found some pretty weird stuff (eg 8x57 JRS Norma brass at Zimbi - bought the whole lot!) Kalahari is big on Remington - I wouldn't be at all surprised if you'll find .375RUM there. I don't know where you are in RSA, but give me a shout if I can help with the footwork.

Look - it won't be cheap, but it might be a solution.

Your approach is interesting (and may I say brave). I'd be interested to hear how you fare. I sincerely hope you don't get hurt in the process!

Gert

Took the liberty of searching a couple of websites:

http://www.safariandoutdoor.co...category/404_jeffery

Safari & Outdoors' website says they have Norma brass in stock

http://www.formalito.co.za/Vie...t.aspx?productid=121

Formalito's website says they have .375RUM brass in stock

Good luck!

Rip, I didn't lathe turn the case, I hit it with a coarse piece of emory cloth to take off some of the tarnish just for the picture. I didn't try to polish it; this was just to show him how to do it. Agree on the tapered end of the ring, but the stress there will be a hell of a lot less than at the head where his original bulge is.

RIP
Not to start a confrontation regarding this process, I have admitted this post to acquire the views /opinions of members with much more knowledge regarding re-loading/fire forming processes, the do`s and the don't`s of relating procedures.

Remarks as received from you as a American citizen where freedom of expression is a high priority in America is confusing to me.

I always say, if you are not able to express a good word/remark about something/someone refrain from uttering any remarks.

Dpcd, thank you kindly I really appreciate your input and solution, I will keep it in mind to use in future projects, at this stage observing a cautious approach from most of the members on this forum and other forums I think of looking at other more viable/less risky procedures to acquire .404 Jeffery brass.

I did accomplish something it seems not very common or done frequently, I learned much from this process, and met a lot of good members sharing the passion for new found knowledge regarding rifles and re-loading processes which I am still a novice of.

Thank you kindly for the positive manner in which members reply/act towards me in regards to this endeavor.

Uvuis, thank you kindly for the suggestion to get hold of .404 Jeffery brass, since it is really extremely expensive in South Africa, and sometimes not easy to buy from the shop shelves.

Putting it in perspective, R40 a brass cartridge for the .404 Jeffery is expensive in my books, I want to participate in shooting Big Bore competition and therefore needs a lot of brass for reloading to practice frequently, compiling a list of components needed to assemble a round to fire at a target in the .404 Jeffery caliber is really expensive.

Rikki, dankie ek het ook daar `n draai gaan maak, en soos jy self kan sien is dit `n duur storie as ek die .404 Jeffery gereeld wil skiet tydens BASA kompetisies. Ek probeer nog .404 Jeffery doppe van `n maatskappy in Amerika kry wat as ek 50x doppe aankoop die gelande prys tussen R8 en R12 `n dop sal wees, baie meer bekostigbaar as R40 `n dop.

I have started researching the process of cast bullets to shoot from my .404 Jeffery, a good friend of mine in New Zealand, Garry Mceowen (aka Von Gruff) on some forums send me examples of bullets he used to re -load his .404 Jeff with, shooting them at 2300ft/s . If I can manage to make a cast mold with the spects of this bullet dimensions, it will for sure be a lot more cheaper to shoot/plinking/practice my .404 Jeffery rifle.

Rusty thank you kindly for the kind gesture, it is much appreciated, and if there is anything I can do to return the favor, please let me know.

Regards

Gert Odendaal

quote:

Originally posted by Gert Odendaal:
RIP
Not to start a confrontation regarding this process, I have admitted this post to acquire the views /opinions of members with much more knowledge regarding re-loading/fire forming processes, the do`s and the don't`s of relating procedures.

Remarks as received from you as a American citizen where freedom of expression is a high priority in America is confusing to me.

I always say, if you are not able to express a good word/remark about something/someone refrain from uttering any remarks.

... Regards

Gert Odendaal

Freedom of expression is a two-way process, yours AND mine, not just yours.
I am in no way against your free speech, or mine.
I speak freely for your safety.

Don't forget that sizing .429-caliber (off the shelf for 44 Magnum handgun) bullets down to .423 (jacketed) or .424-.425 (cast lead)
works great for plinking/practice loads with the 404 Jeffery.
You will need a sizer even if you cast your own 404 Jeffery bullets.

He,he,he it depends from which perspective you see it....

RIP as a matter of fact when with the first fire formed shot using 10 gn of MP 200 pistol propellant and maizemeal filled up and compacted, the brass only blown out about half the length of the brass.

I fire formed the .375 H&H brass, the one I cut opened to show results I took a .44 Magnum cast bullet, put it in the lathe and turned down the shank to press fit (with my hands /little bit of help with a small mallet) into the half formed brass.the second fire formed step at that stage I had 12.6 gn MP200 pistol propellant in the brass , put it into the .404 Jeff and closed the bolt then pulled the trigger.(I did aim at a target)

The fire formed case came out beautifully...I really am going to use cast bullets from a .404 Jeffery mold I want to make myself...it really is a shame I can not proceed with this process since a member thought it is madness....

If the 404 is so expencive to shoot why are you so hellbend to use it?
Sell it and get something that is within your pricerange.
When you have fireformed the bastard cases you still need expencive bullets.

Here in the US we blow cases out, shoulders forward, necks down, shoulders back, et cetera, et cetera and all repeat, all these modifications forward of the head. I have never seen, heard of or read of someone doing what you are trying to do. Trying to blow the head out as you are doing seems quite dangerous to me. At a minimum I strongly urge you to wear proper safety glasses with side shields.

The Dane, getting hold of a .404 Jeffery the first place is an accomplishment itself,if there was a holy grail for rifles, then the .404 Jeffery would be it. Once you have a .404 Jeffery you don`t need another Dangerous game rifle, it kills any animal, fast and functionally. I would rather fire form any brass to fit a .404 Jeffery than sell my .404 Jeffery.

Suwannee Tim I discussed the results/cut opened brass with a gunsmith yesterday, we especially focused on the part above the belt and it still seems the fire forming process expanded proportional creating a thick case wall here as well. There is not a weak point/spot above the belt as some of the members suggested.

My opinion regarding this fire forming process is the quantity of brass in a .375 H&H Magnum and the .404 Jeffery brass is about the same (I will melt the two cases and see what weight of brass accumulate) when fire forming , the brass flow according to the chamber form in an over all expansion to create similar/the same thickness in the case walls.

Now for the "bummer" the only way I can be proof wrong is:
When I blow myself up in the process/ when any other person will engage in the same experiment and get different results than me ....

There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old, bold ....

quote:

Now for the "bummer" the only way I can be proof wrong is:
When I blow myself up in the process/ when any other person will engage in the same experiment and get different results than me .... 2020 beer

Or: a good gambler knows when to hold them or to fold them, winning the fight but loosing the war, pressure signs are bogus, when you noticed them the damage has already being done....

quote:

Originally posted by Gert Odendaal:


Suwannee Tim I discussed the results/cut opened brass with a gunsmith yesterday, we especially focused on the part above the belt and it still seems the fire forming process expanded proportional creating a thick case wall here as well. There is not a weak point/spot above the belt as some of the members suggested.

As an engineer I beg to differ about there being no weak spot above the belt. The material thickness may be high, but there is an area of the case above the belt and the solid head of the case which is not supported by the chamber walls. Brass being weak as it is, with repeated firings it will flow into that empty space, most likely rupturing in the process. The brass is just a seal like an O-ring and it will fail like one if left unsupported.

So I second the recommendation already given to always wear safety glasses when firing this ammunition!

Heck I have seen hh cases separate at the best before having a 0.02 extra extra... Use 375 rum cases if you must

I was surprised to see this listing on our auction site and not a bad price too. This RWS brass is super stuff, I've used one box of this same brass over many years now loaded with jacketed and cast bullets and still have another untouched box of new cases in reserve (waiting for Africa). Very tempted to grab these too.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Brows...ng.aspx?id=666107194

It is good to see some countries and suppliers sell .404 Jeffery stuff, unfortunately I am not allowed to buy from them, they only sell to New Zealand/Australian members, outsiders are not allowed any membership.

As with the rest they do not ship to South Africa, it seems a very ,very few countries like South Africa these days, like China, Russia, Cuba and all the poor African countries, they even get citizenship as long as they are willing to vote for the ruling party...

quote:

Originally posted by Gert Odendaal:
...........When I blow myself up in the process/ when any other person will engage in the same experiment and get different results than me ....

I recently conducted some experiments using corncob grits in 300 Win mag against the advice of some of the other members. I had one unexpected result, a blown primer with a load that should not have blown a primer. That experiment is now ended and I will not take it up again. I hope you are very careful and observant and do not dismiss warnings of danger. I expect you are going to have a seperation and gas leakage. If that happens you will be wise to stop then and there and abandon this quest permanently. Again I urge you to wear proper safety glasses with side shields.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I was surprised to see this listing on our auction site and not a bad price too. This RWS brass is super stuff........

I have used RWS brass, it was harder than woodpecker lips. I had some necks crack after two or three loadings, I annealed them to get better case life.

I have stopped with the experiment as for now.

I will engage it later when I have a .404 Jeffery barrel and action welded to a solid frame from where I can conduct safe experimenting processes.

I will have safe distances from where I can pull the trigger attached to a string.

Even if I will not use the formed brass to shoot or hunt with I need to be able to make sound conclusions regarding this experiment maybe it will provide some insight to fire forming processes.

I will adhere to the necessary safety precautions when conducting further tests.

I will upload a detailed report regarding the process when completed , this will probably happen next year.

Regards

Gert Odendaal

Hello Gert,
I sometimes use one wrap of scotch tape around the base of a case to help center the rear of the case in factory oversized chambers..
The tape adds .004" IIRC..
In your case I would try one wrap of black electrical tape just ahead of the belt for starters..
As aside when .375 Ruger brass was in short supply (actually none to be had) up here in Canada a few years ago some people used fire formed .338 win. brass..
Never heard of any reported problems with doing that..
Good luck and have fun with your project..

Oh and remember the world was once flat..

quote:

Originally posted by Suwannee Tim:

quote:

Originally posted by Gert Odendaal:
...........When I blow myself up in the process/ when any other person will engage in the same experiment and get different results than me ....

I recently conducted some experiments using corncob grits in 300 Win mag against the advice of some of the other members. I had one unexpected result, a blown primer with a load that should not have blown a primer. That experiment is now ended and I will not take it up again. I hope you are very careful and observant and do not dismiss warnings of danger. I expect you are going to have a seperation and gas leakage. If that happens you will be wise to stop then and there and abandon this quest permanently. Again I urge you to wear proper safety glasses with side shields.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I was surprised to see this listing on our auction site and not a bad price too. This RWS brass is super stuff........

I have used RWS brass, it was harder than woodpecker lips. I had some necks crack after two or three loadings, I annealed them to get better case life.

Yes agree RWS is good hard brass and I do anneal just the necks on my mine for longevity.

A RWS 404 case just annealed -

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:
Hello Gert,
I sometimes use one wrap of scotch tape around the base of a case to help center the rear of the case in factory oversized chambers..
The tape adds .004" IIRC..
In your case I would try one wrap of black electrical tape just ahead of the belt for starters..
As aside when .375 Ruger brass was in short supply (actually none to be had) up here in Canada a few years ago some people used fire formed .338 win. brass..
Never heard of any reported problems with doing that..
Good luck and have fun with your project..

Oh and remember the world was once flat..

Thank you very much Lowwall/Eagle 27
It is good to get advice from fellow members whom have walked the road already , it is always a privileged to receive sheared information and knowledge from members.

I will as pointed out previously engage in another round of experimenting, but only when I find an old shot out .404 Jeffery barrel and there is time to for it. My first priority is to complete my .375 H&H Magnum rifle build and build a furnace to do some color case hardening on actions and parts of rifle metal components.

It is a process I read up allot and I am sure I will be able to successfully color case hardens Mauser actions to begin with and then Winchester,Marlin and other actions

Good day to all members:
Update: I did this experiment in 2013...throughout the following years up to 2017 where we are now, I am still shooting these fire formed brass..Gentleman, these fire formed brass are still performing excellently...no head separation, no blow outs, no cracks ....I shoot them will full loads..hunting loads....400 gn bullets .....

Good to hear.
I lost track of this thread until today and am surprised at the pushback you received.
This was a fairly common practice in making the even harder to find 333 Jeffery brass.
I have some examples of those cases. My bet is that it was done in Africa where eventually just about every safari was using a 300H&H or a 375H&H and the supply of 333 brass was pretty much gone.

Good day Huvius
I agree , I believe there have been many fire form processes that have been done, that will be questioned..my fire form process is not an exception at all...the difference being in the USA there is no need to do this..every kind of brass is available as being pointed out by members who followed this thread.

What is nice about this process..I can report back, four or five years later that I am still using and shooting these brass casings and have not done any annealing...without occurring cracks, head separations or any other malfunction ...maybe we underestimate the properties of brass ....

When time permits I will be cutting these brass casing open again and take measurements again...

Hi Gert

I have been following this for a while but did not join in because of limited personal experience is your type of fire forming.

Glad you are doing well. You can be proud.

May I suggest that you do not delay cutting open a case - I suggest that you cut open 10 or even 20 cases - ranging from very old ones to more recent ones. Also different brands.

That would give you a very good idea of how much expansion you are getting and how thin the really old cases are after several reloads.

You could post the photos with details here and it would be a great education for all of us.

Thanks

It was very common for folks to make 6.5x55 and 7.7 Jap brass from 30-06 before it became commonly available.
Some of George Nonte's creations in his book Cartridge Conversions makes what you are doing pretty tame.

Gert, if you can get a safari outfitter or professional hunter who goes to the US to help you, I will contribute 25 .404 Jeffery cases, and FedEx them to his hotel. I'm sure one or two other people would also be willing to do so.

Gert,
I don't think anyone is being rude, It seems to me they are mostly concerned with your welfare. What you are doing is extremely dangerous and Id bet dollars to donuts something is going to give way sooner or later and at 50 to 60,000 PSI lots will happen, and hope Im wrong..Anyway best to you, your a big boy and on your own..

Members, thank you kindly for all replies, it is much appreciated. Since this experiment, years passed and the 404 Jeffery caliber seems to be a rifle everybody wants...especially if you look at rifle forums ....it really is one caliber that surpassed any other caliber when it comes to a hunter who wants to purchase something bigger than the excellent .375 H&H Magnum. Manufacturers like CZ is manufacturing the 404 Jeffery and Hornady are selling dies and brass...I bought 50 x Hornady brass and with current brass I have more than enough to last me a few years..I will be re-loading my new Hornady brass for my hunting venture this winter. I already bought Stewards Core-bonded bullets in 320gn for plains game hunting..I just thought it is prudent to give feedback to members in this regard since there are members who was interested in process... Please keep in mind I do not do these experiments /fire forming processes without any regards to safety , safety is always on the forefront ..

Regards

Gert

Gert can you please cut 10 or 20 cases old and more recent of different 375HH origin and 10 reloads, 5 reloads etc. Pleae post photos so we can learn from your work.

PLEASE!

The interest us right up there and got a lot of attention..

Also you would be surprised how many people today shoot the 404 Jefferys. I have shot it, reloaded for it, and hunted with it, built rifles for the caliber for 50 years or so years,

My all time favorite African rifle, Its gained in popularity over the years to the point that brass and all components are easy to come by from a number of distributers.

My favorite load is 93 grs of IMR-4831 behind a 400 or 450 gr. Woodleigh, 380 gr. GS Customs flat nose solid, or the North Fork cup point, 215 Fed. primers and a supply of RWS and Norma cases..

Components for the 404 have actually been easier to come by than .416 REmingtons over tha last couple of years, but that's all easing up it seems.

Naki hunter, I would do what you ask if I had the heart to cut up/cut open so many brass..I will cut open two for the experiment, the fire formed and the standard brass...even while I do have sufficient 404 brass I still treasure them .....
Atkinson, yes, you are quite correct,...today you can source 404 brass and dies about in every country since it really is the rifle who every hunter wants to prosesse.... look at most rifle forums and you will find a lot of 404 Jeffery threads where hunters are on the lookout for the 404 Jeffery to purchase....