Good Day Members

I am currently necking up a .375 H&H Magnum brass to a .404 Jeffery (.423) caliber to shoot in my .404 Jeffery. I do this forming in three steps. But I want to design/build/make a fire forming templet (barrels action ) to shoot all these many brass(80x .375 H&H Magnum) through the fire forming processes, I do not want to do all these firing in my .404 Jeff. I really would like to hear from members thinking like me...

Regards

Gert

Perhaps I am missing something here.

Why are your using a belted magnum (375 H&H) to make 404 Jeffery a Beltless Rimless cartridge?

The case head size is different and the rim on the 375 H&H much thicker.

Perhaps you could explain?

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Perhaps I am missing something here.

Why are your using a belted magnum (375 H&H) to make 404 Jeffery a Beltless Rimless cartridge?

The case head size is different and the rim on the 375 H&H much thicker.

Perhaps you could explain?

My thoughts exactly.

I can be done, but I would think that even in Africa 404 brass would be available.
I have never attempted it, but I do have a 333 Jeff formed from a 300WM case.

Good Day Rusty/Graybird
.404 Jeffery brass is extremely expensive in South Africa, I have a .404 Jeffery and a .375 H&H Magnum .I need to shoot these calibers frequently , to do that I have to find cheaper options , I will shoot these .375 H&H Magnum converted brass(.404) to shoot Big bore competitions and wild boar. To use these calibers frequently will be expensive when buying all components from the shop shelf thus to expensive to shoot, so they will stand in my safe as dummies.

I do have a lot of .375 H&H Magnum brass since this brass is more common in South Africa. I will shoot these rifles using cast points to make it even cheaper.

Reasons:
Financial/practical.

A few photos:

Never, ever thought I'd see something like that. Interesting.

WOW!

Gentlemen , please forgive me if I sound forward/rude or bad mannered, but this is the first time I have this kind of response from American hunters, I and many South African hunters view you guys as the most knowledgeable hunters/people when it comes to products , rifles, knowledge of hunting, we sort of look up to you guys. Now this is a surprise for me to see your guy reactions, I thought this procedure is an average procedures done by you guys in America. Please if I sound rude forgive me, so is this really such a big deal by necking up the .375H&H Magnum to a .404 Jeffery?????

Regards

Gert
South African born and bread....

With brass being available here on this side of the pond, I don't know who would consider doing what you have done. I think it is very resourceful of you!

Learn something new every day!

Making uncommon or much needed brass is done here.

Use to be done a lot more but more and more uncommon brass is available on the market.

It is now more a matter is my time worth the effort to make brass when one can buy it all ready made.

If one has more time then money one does what he needs to shoot.

The more my time is worth the less time I spend on projects that I can simple pay for.

p dog shooter
I hope more companies will roll out more .404 Jeffey brass so we can buy it cheaper on our side of the pond, South Africa, in our country components, brass is on the short side and really expensive. I believe we are capable of designing wild- catters like you guys in America, the problem being it is really, really difficult to obtain rifle/weapon/shotgun licences here in South Africa, it takes sometimes two tot three years to get licences in South Africa, I can tell you horror stories about what happened here regarding licencing applications.

Gert,
I might suggest a Mauser action with a stub barrel chambered for 404, perhaps from a shot out barrel. You could change barrels as needed for other calibers.
Best.

Gert, I think the surprise shows you how easy we have it here as Rusty said. We just pick up the phone and call Midway, Huntingstons, Grafs etc and the brass shows up in a week. Being resourceful in the U.S. has gotten to be an antiquity.

My concern would be especially the area just forward of the belt. Sine the brass is filling the gap, I would be worried about weakening.

Since you've obviously done some of this already, I'd like to know what your long-term results have been. How many re-loads do you get per brass? Have you had any separation in the area forward of the belt?

As I say, interesting.

50Calshtr/BaxterB and other members, thank you kindly for the replies, it is appreciated....

50 Calshtr, I thought of a similar device, since I am more concerned with Mauser rifles it surely will make a lot of sense. I will figure something out and upload the result. It will give me the opportunity to ream a .404 chamber or build a .404 reamer(.423) to do this. And I will even have to work the magazine box/feeding rails, feeding ramp and work away the back part where the stripper clip guide rail is. This will give me more knowledge about opening up a standard Mauser action to feed .404 Jeff ammo without any hick-ups.....

Baxter B, I looked at this section as well, but keep in mind in a Magnum brass/cartridge the flash hole, and adjacent part , the part you mentioned , is probably the strongest/thickest part we talk about. I will be shooting these fired formed .375/.404 Jeff brass at least ten times with full loads usually comprising at least a .400gn cast bullet to see if any defects results, only then will I embark on a full scale fire forming of this type of brass.

I will then shoot them more at hunting scenarios to see how they perform.

Gert

Danger Will Robinson!!!!!
You are fixing to hurt yourself; that is way too much bulge to live with. When doing this kind of thing, you should make a brass or copper ring at least 3/8ths long to slip on the 375 case above the belt; Then fire form the case. That way, you won' t be expanding the important case area above the belt. To fire form out of your rifle, just get any action and fit a piece of barrel to it (be careful; in the US, a barrel can't be less than 16 inchs long) and use that to fire form; using cream of wheat and some pistol powder.
When I open up a 98 to take a 404, I try to do most of the work on the rear to minimize removing too much from the feed ramp/bottom lug shoulder. I move the back of the mag box to the rear as far as possible; make a thinner wall and weld it in. You will see how far you can go. Then remove some from the bolt stop to allow the bolt to go back more. Then go to the front of the box and move that forward.

Gert: I understand your lack of raw material to work with and sympathize. You've done an extraordinarily clever job of make-do with .375 brass. However, I would think that some of the Remington Ultramag brass, in any of the Ultramag calibers, might be available to you. The Ultramags are based on the .404 Jeff case and have the same head/body dimensions as well as length of 2.85". Any of the Ultramag series should squeeze through a .404 Jeff die to fit your chamber. The smaller ones (7mm & 300) might be challenging to expand at the neck to .404, but the .375 Ultramag case should be no trick at all.

Gert: Like dpcd I shudder to see the amount of case stretch just ahead of the solid web when you fireform your 375 H&H cases to 404 Jeffery. With mild cast bullets loads you may get away with this but to go to heavy cast or full blown jacketed bullet loads at 38,000 + psi that would not be for me and I certainly wouldn't be standing beside you if you were using these fireformed cases.

dpcd's suggestion of a brass or copper ring being seated down to the belt before fireforming is a good one although not easily achieved in having to source or make brass rings of the correct dimension.

As to making up a 404 from a standard Mauser (like I myself own), if 404 ammo and cases are hard to come by and expensive but you wanted to keep the 404 bullet size in a standard length action and with easy to come by 375 H&H cases, I would be looking to make up a 423 Express which originally was made on the belted 300 Win Mag case necked up to .423 and loaded to 2400fps (shorten and neck up 375 H&H brass). Obviously the pressure is up in the .423 Express to achieve the published velocity although if loaded down a bit closer to the 404 Jeffery spec of around 2200 - 2300fps you would have a sweet shooter with good knock down.

Looks like a scary thing to me too.
I would not do it.

375 RUM to 404 Jeffery is a better idea.
RUM case head is bigger than the 404 Jeffery case head, and takes some muscle and care in lubing to size down in a regular press.
RUM rim (like .375 H&H rim) is lesser diameter than the 404 Jeffery rim too.

Even rim diameter differences can screw up the feeding, extracting and ejecting unless the bolt face and extractor are made right for it.
Another reason not to do this.

375 RUM was impossible to find a while back, until Remington made the periodic run of it. How many years between those runs?

Bite the bullet and wait for some Norma 404 Jeffery brass.
You will live longer that way, with your rifles and personal anatomy intact.

I would have never thought of doing it that way. After seeing it I don't think I would either. As other have stated that is a LOT of expansion.

All that said I assume you have been doing it for a while and are here to tell us about it.

That is what 7MM Rem Mag brass looks like when fired in my Ruger #1 with a LARGE chamber.

I am very critical of chambers that are much larger than the head of the case. I have had many case head separations in Lee-Enfields. A LE does not have open passages to direct gas to your face. The usual bolt gun used for a .404 does. You could be risking serious injury.

If you are going to use a lot of that brass why not just make a wildcat that is a skinny facsimile of a .404 with a smaller head and use the common .375 H&H brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Gert Odendaal:
Gentlemen , please forgive me if I sound forward/rude or bad mannered, but this is the first time I have this kind of response from American hunters, I and many South African hunters view you guys as the most knowledgeable hunters/people when it comes to products , rifles, knowledge of hunting, we sort of look up to you guys. Now this is a surprise for me to see your guy reactions, I thought this procedure is an average procedures done by you guys in America. Please if I sound rude forgive me, so is this really such a big deal by necking up the .375H&H Magnum to a .404 Jeffery?????

Regards

Gert
South African born and bread....

Thank you kindly for the replies, I will not be throwing caution into the wind. I am currently sourcing a shot out .404 barrel (action I have) to build a fire form jig as to minimize any risk of case separation and injury.
The fire formed brass will be shot at least ten times the full .404 Jeffey loads with cast bullets to see if this procedure is viable. I need to stress that this was necessary to find a solution for very expensive brass and practice
rounds.

I noticed the concerns of members, part of functional experimenting is to know when to stop, this process is part of finding new methods to overcome a problem.

I will be updating my progress regarding the fire form process after I had built a fire form jig.

Kind Regards

Gert

Most American shooters have no idea what you are trying to do; readers of AR are special. And I will say that your idea is valid; I would recommend, again, to lathe turn some little bands to cover the area in front of the belt so you won't be expanding the part of the case that is thickest and hardest to expand. Then it will be very safe.

If you can get a reasonable amount of .404 brass anywhere you can make it almost immortal.
You just use a shoulder datum gauge to set your FL die to push the shoulder back .001 inch.

quote:

Originally posted by Gert Odendaal:
Thank you kindly for the replies, I will not be throwing caution into the wind. I am currently sourcing a shot out .404 barrel (action I have) to build a fire form jig as to minimize any risk of case separation and injury.
The fire formed brass will be shot at least ten times the full .404 Jeffey loads with cast bullets to see if this procedure is viable. I need to stress that this was necessary to find a solution for very expensive brass and practice
rounds.

I noticed the concerns of members, part of functional experimenting is to know when to stop, this process is part of finding new methods to overcome a problem.

I will be updating my progress regarding the fire form process after I had built a fire form jig.

Kind Regards

Gert

I guess the lack of responses is that members are a little confused.
To fire for " a lot" of brass is easy t odo with the tried and true method of using a pistol powder under a load of Cream-Of-Wheat and "blowing" the case into the rifles chamber and forming the new case. You will have to trim the cases to round out the case moth sometimes.
I have done this for 45 years now and have never had an issue other than a few split necks on cases I forget to anneal.
The COW does dot hurt the bore of your very nice rifle, and is easy to clean up the dust out of the bore.
Other than custom dies at a very great expense, I can not see any advantage to a "special chamber" being cut to form the new case.
What you can do as well is to find dies that have some of the dimensions close to your case to do a pre-reshape of the brass.
hope this info helps a little.

Thank you for the replies, it is appreciated .Rapidop,I do use maize meal and 15gn of MP 200 pistol propellant to fire form the ,375 H&H Magnum brass for the first time. It create a brass with a .404 neck and about one inch .404 body. I then put this brass in the Hornady .404 die. Then reload the brass with maize-meal and MP200 propellant again and fire it in my .404 rifle. The brass coming out of the chamber have then a neck with a .404 Jeff dimensions further down the brass body, only a small piece remains in the dimentions of the .375 H&H Magnum.

Then for the last time I load a .44 magnum cast bullet with 15gn MP200 behind it and fire it again in my .404 Jeff. Then what exit the .404 Jeff chamber is a .404 Jeffery brass looking a duplicate of the original .404 Jeff brass. I then took this brass, reload it to hunting specifications with a 400gn bullet and shooy it out of my .404 Jeffery it shoots beautifully,then this brass exiting the .404 chamber looks even better than the original .404 Jeffery brass with the exception of the belt...this is what this process curtails. So as you can see there are a lot of fire forming just to form one brass looking like a ,404 Jeffery brass.

I really would like to hear from you members.

Regards

Gert odendaal

quote:

Other than custom dies at a very great expense, I can not see any advantage to a "special chamber" being cut to form the new case.

The advantage is you abandon .404 brass forever if you really can't get it. Why mess around with a half baked stop gap if it is really permanent.
Just move on to .375 brass.

One of the founders of Intel once remarked in a speech about the capabilities of engineers in his organization that he had to guard against.
He said they were good enough to make a bad idea work.
Some things you can make work. But it may be a crude solution.
In this situation a better solution would be real .404 brass. Absent that make a chamber that works well with the brass you have. The cost of dies does not necessarily have to be high. If you can make one bad idea work, why not make another bad idea work?
Find a way to make dies that are not so expensive.

Members, I studied the full formed .375 H&H Magnum brass yesterday again. Although the photo of the brass tends to give an idea of excessive expansion, the brass itself looks to be expanded exponentially and the angles the part above the belt seems fine. Maybe the camera lens is not conveying a true image regarding the amount of expansion of that specific part of the brass.

As mentioned above I will fire form more brass and shoot them with full loads until the brass crack or separate at the head so it surely will give me an idea of how relevant this process really is.

I will upload photos of the cracked necks or head separated brass that will be cut opened to display the damaged to the brass. I am going to fire form more brass today.

You have been very resilient and innovative. Hats off!

This reminds me of Graeme Wright's book on shooting Double rifles - where the Aussie guys in the 70s & 80 innovated so much to keep shooting the wonderful classic rifles.

Gert

Couple of things.

Have you thought of getting a visiting hunter to SA to bring some 404 Brass with them for you ?

Secondly, Bertram and some other brass is cheap
as and does last if looked after.

Thirdly, a few years ago I purchased RWS 404 Brass, god it was expensive compared to other
brass BUT I have since found that after 10 reloads, all in all it lasts longer and works
out at a cost per case about the same as other brass.

So it taught me to bite the bullet, look after the brass and it doesn't seem so expensive.

Thank you kindly members for the replies, it really is appreciated.

I have completed the experiment regarding the fire-forming of a .375 H&H Magnum brass to fit in a .404 (.423) Jeffery chamber of my hunting rifle. I used the following brass for this experiment specifically.
The .375 H&H Magnum brass as is.
The fire formed .375/.404 Jeffery brass mentioned in the thread/post . I need to point out that I pulled the bullet from a .404 Jeffery round and pour the propellant into the .375/404 brass , seated the 400gn bullet and shoot it out of my .404 Jeffery hunting rifle. This is the .375/404 brass I am using in this experiment.

The .404 Jeffery I pulled the bullet from and use the propellant to fire form the .375/404 Jeffry brass for the past time with.( while pulling the bullet from a .404 round I had to keep myself from crying since I am using a perfectly normal .404 Jeffery brass to be gutted for an experiment, but I kept in mind it is all for a very good course, to acquire knowledge to the benefited of other members.

I used a good quality digital calipers to measure and determine the thickness of the brass walls. The measurements are measured in inches for the foreign members(American/European members)The measurements were done by two different people and confirmed by a third person. These measurements can be accepted as true and constant.

Herewith is the results of this experiment as mentioned above. I commenced by using the three brass cartridges as explained above. Beforehand I cut them open with a Dremel.



In the photo you will be able to see the full sectioning of the different brass I used in this experiment.



I will be posting the results of this experiment , I am still compiling a photo set-up to acquire a conclusion regarding this experiment. I can assure you it is really interesting and it will give everybody a clear insight into this phenomenon.

Here are the results regarding this experiment regarding fire forming .375 H&H Magnum brass to fit in my .404(.423) Jeffery rifle chamber.
Photos of this experiment:
It is interesting to notice the different colors in the brass casings, the .375 H&H Magnum has a different color than the .404 Jeffery brass casing.
The three different cases:


Thickness of the .375 H&H Magnum brass casing


The thickness of the .375/404 fire formed brass casing


The thickness of the .404 Jeffery brass casing


Please take note of the first dimension of the ,375 H&H Magnum brass, the digital calipers was zeroed after this measurement was taken, so the following reading on the last two brass casings is the differences between the .375 H&H Magnum , and the .375/404 and then the .404 Jeffery.

A clearer perspective of the two prominent pieces of brass under discussion to assist in noticing the difference of the walls, the flame hole, the thickness of the base.



Conclusion:
As indicated by the photos and dimensions I think it is save to say that at no point was I in any danger of having a head separation or a explosion when fire forming this brass. I think it is just to accept that this procedure can be done within reasonable safety parameters, and I can now commence with my next step :
Fire forming the .375 H&H Magnum brass to fit my .404 Jeffery chamber, to take at least 10x fire formed brass and shoot them numerous times until head separation or cracked necks starts to emerge, indicating annealing should be apply.

I am open to any suggestions and opinions regarding this process.

Regards

Gert

I gave you my suggestion on how to easily avoid all that brass expansion just forward of the belt; lathe turn a little ring about 3/8th inch long and slip it down over the brass until it touches the belt. When you fire the brass, it will be locked on and your brass will not have to expand any at all down at the critical point. I know modern brass is very ductile and safe, but you will have a better (and better looking) result.

Thank you kindly dcpd, I will definitely make use of this idea, so it is like a second belt? Is there going to be any interference regarding the head spacing?
Gert

Thanks for posting the pictures! I'm impressed! I would have never thought to do this!

No, it is not a second belt (maybe it is, sort of) and your 404 will headspace on the shoulder anyway; it takes up the space in front of the existing belt so your brass will not have to expand to match the chamber. It will look a lot better and will make your brass last longer. I will make one and post pics for you.

Yep,
Looks horrible. Very thin in the mid-case body, shoulder and neck area.

You might have to modify your reloading dies to be able to get sufficient neck tension to hold a bullet in the neck,
if that is possible at all.
May need a new neck sizing die altogether.

So they survive a first fire-forming most of the time?
How many cases have you formed so far?
The case body-belt juncture is a stress riser in the fire-forming.
That takes a lot of working to iron out.
It is going to get brittle all over from there on up, and thinned all over on the way up to the case mouth.

You are going to be prone to case head separation AND case body, shoulder, and neck splits and separations.

Turn back, it is not too late.

Good Lord deliver you.

dcpd, thank you I am looking froward to the example, always nice when members are sharing their ideas.
Gert

Here is what I would do to prevent unnecessary case expansion next to the belt; the little brass ring is .511 ID and .542 OD, which is the same diameter as .404 brass. It is .410 long. Slip it on the .375 brass and fire form; the expansion of the forward part of the case will lock it on.

That ring needs to be taperd at the top to decrease the stress riser when the case inside it folds over at a 90-degree angle.
It will lock the ring on, but it will be weakened at that circle around the top of the ring.

Don't encourage madness.

Looks like the .375 H&H case was lathe-turned outside to fit the slip-on ring.