Seemed to work just fine. Brass looks almost like a Lapua case.

Ran up to Lowes and bought a Bernzomatic plumbers propane torch for $20. Put a 1/4" adapter in the cordless drill, hooked up the 1/4" 2" extension and locked on a 12mm socket. 270 brass fits just fine.

Turned the torch to about 3/4 powder, plopped in a case, started spinning the drill slowly and eased it into the flame about 1" from center blue flame. Total flame was about 2" maybe 2 and a quarter. (Got that from the brass-o-matic guy).

Put the brass in the center of the flame for 6 seconds each then dropped them in an old cooking pot, no water. Most of the discoloration is on all of the neck and half way down the shoulder. Color appears to be exactly like a Lapua brass, as I mentioned.

I did a few "test" hulls to just to see what happens. It took about 12-14 seconds to glow red and when that happened, any and all luster was gone from the brass. 4-5 seconds and I couldn't even tell they were flamed. At 10-11 seconds, the hotter the hull got towards the head.

I pitched all of the old test hulls. Pretty much set the torch where the whole flame is 2-2.25" long and the bright center flame is about 1" long. Spin the neck about 1" away from the point of the center flame. Seems to work very well.

I still will likely buy the Hornady kit at least. I couldn't find a 1/4" adapter that goes 3/8" to get any of my larger mm sockets, otherwise I would have done some Ultra mag and 7mag cases.

Once I got my rhythm down I did about 125 cases in 15 mintues. All were 270 and have been fired about 4-6 times each.

I use this same methiod save I use the lower portion of the Lee trimmers to attach cases to the drill/screwdriver, I count to 12 but my torch doesn't get very hot.

No dings in the cases from dropping them Doc ?.

As I posted Water is the cushion and you can handle the cases right now . Does Nothing for the actual annealing process . Other than when the cases sit in a pan of water which keeps the body and head cool .

What ever works for you stick with it . BOL !!.


Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Krochus:
I use this same methiod save I use the lower portion of the Lee trimmers to attach cases to the drill/screwdriver, I count to 12 but my torch doesn't get very hot.

Well, I know little about annealing, but the longer the case is in the flame, the hotter the case head gets. As I understand it, ideally, you use a hot flame and do it rather quickly. Inside of 7-8 seconds at the most.

This video is very close to what I did, but this guy is using a MAPP torch as it gets hotter and he anneals for only a few seconds:

ANNEALING 50BMG CASES

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
No dings in the cases from dropping them Doc ?

No, they didn't drop but maybe an inch. I just moved the drill over the small pot and lowered the brass down and they gently fell out. Not one ding. And if there was, I'd run it back in the die.

I propped the torch in a bunny ear sandbag and let the flame aim straight up. After loading a case, I held it about 45 degrees upright to the flame so as to anneal the necks only. I tried not to flame any of the shoulder and none of the body.

We'll see what happens when they are reloaded and fired. Hope I did it right.

quote:

Well, I know little about annealing, but the longer the case is in the flame, the hotter the case head gets.

With my torch even at 12 seconds the case head is barely piss warm. From there it's into some water.

I need a new torch.

Annealing brass or copper is simply heating it to a certain temperature then cooling it quickly to soften the brass. I don't care for the idea of heating the case without protecting the case head (which you want to remain hard).I prefer to stand the cases in a metal cake pan filled with approx 3/4 in of water. Heat the neck and shoulder area with your torch then tip that case over in the water. Without protecting the case head Sooner or later you are going to soften a case head and things are going to get ugly when you fire that case. Just a risk I prefer not to take.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
Annealing brass or copper is simply heating it to a certain temperature then cooling it quickly to soften the brass. I don't care for the idea of heating the case without protecting the case head (which you want to remain hard).I prefer to stand the cases in a metal cake pan filled with approx 3/4 in of water. Heat the neck and shoulder area with your torch then tip that case over in the water. Without protecting the case head Sooner or later you are going to soften a case head and things are going to get ugly when you fire that case. Just a risk I prefer not to take.

FWIW this seems to be a really good concise synopsis of a LOT of reading I've done on annealing.

I think this is probably the simplest, most cost effective method to annealing for the DIY'er not looking to go deep on a annealing expense.

Doc, I do think you need the step to dunk 'em in H2O though...

You didn't anneal the cases.

For brass to anneal you need to heat it to the correct temperature and then cool it quickly. Dropping it into the empty pan allowed it to cool slowly which probably hardened the brass.

It is counter-intuitive for people who work with steel all the time but brass reacts exactly the opposite of steel and has to be cooled quickly to anneal.

Doc, I do it basicly the same way but drop them in a pot of water.

I bought tempalac stix(apply to neck) to get the right temp , hard to see the tempalc melt during anneling, so I just watch for a slight dull redish color just start(same as the tempalac melt point) then dump em in the water.

Aneling is a piece of cake

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
You didn't anneal the cases.

For brass to anneal you need to heat it to the correct temperature and then cool it quickly. Dropping it into the empty pan allowed it to cool slowly which probably hardened the brass.

It is counter-intuitive for people who work with steel all the time but brass reacts exactly the opposite of steel and has to be cooled quickly to anneal.

Copper allows are hardened only by cold working.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
You didn't anneal the cases.

For brass to anneal you need to heat it to the correct temperature and then cool it quickly. Dropping it into the empty pan allowed it to cool slowly which probably hardened the brass.

It is counter-intuitive for people who work with steel all the time but brass reacts exactly the opposite of steel and has to be cooled quickly to anneal.

mmmmm, I disagree. In fact, the slower it cools, the better it was annealed.

quote:

Here the process of softening is referred to as "annealing" and it is carried out by heating the work to above the critical temperature ie to a bright red heat and allowing it to cool as slowly as possible. Brass is non-ferrous and cannot be hardened by heat treatment in the same way that carbon steel can. It will however harden by mechanical pressure and this is usually known as "workhardening".....There are occasions when hard brass needs to be softened, perhaps so that if can be bent or riveted, and here heat treatment is used to anneal the brass. The metal is heated to a dull red heat and allowed to cool and this treatment will be found to soften the metal completely. In some books it is suggested that the brass should be quenched in water after heating but this is purely a matter of convenience in handling; rapid quenching will have no effect on the annealing process.

quote:

To properly anneal brass it can be heated to a dull red and air cooled. If it is quenched, it will be hard.

quote:

Quenching is a bit misunderstood. Yes it does serve to prevent overheating of the case–that’s a good thing. But it does not otherwise improve the annealing process or make for a better anneal of the neck area. One of the reasons a liquid quench is not needed with the machines like the Ken Light machine is than the big metal carousel serves as a heat sink and also shields the bottom of the case. Also the duration of the neck’s exposure to flame is carefully controlled. The neck area gets to the optimal temperature without overheating the bottom. At that point the case moves out of the flame and is allowed to cool naturally. There is no benefit of quick-cooling the case in water so long as it doesn’t get too hot.

People who anneal manually often prefer to quench their cases to prevent overheating. There is also a method of annealing cases that are standing in a shallow pan of water. Once the neck reaches the right temp, one tips over the case to cool it. Again, this is not a bad thing… but the quick cool does not improve the outcome for the annealed neck section of the case. A slow cool-down of the neck can achieve the desired results.

“Unlike steel, which will be made harder when it is cooled rapidly, brass is virtually unaffected when it is rapidly cooled. Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass. Cartridge cases are made of brass. When cartridge cases have been reloaded a number of times, the case necks become harder. Annealing will return the cartridge case necks to their factory original state.â€

I seem to remember that not too long ago, here in AR, someone suggested the use of a melted lead pot to anneal brass?
Keeping the lead at the right temperature wouldn’t be difficult. After establishing for how long to keep the brass neck dipped into the molted lead, annealing will be a “peace of cakeâ€!

B.Martins

No, brass and copper do not have to be cooled quickly to anneal. All the annealing is done when it's hot !!! Annealing starts at 450 F.Best to do it in water as only the neck should be annealed !

Hey Doc, here is a quote from one of the other threads on annealing you posted.

quote:

If you let the color on the neck go beyond light blue, and the shine disappears, you’re on the edge of ruining the case, and you may already have gone too far. If you let the case get red, it’s a goner.

Here is a quote from you in this thread.

quote:

Here the process of softening is referred to as "annealing" and it is carried out by heating the work to above the critical temperature ie to a bright red heat

I am as confused as ever on how hot to get the brass.

All very technical stuff, and going by this, I should be sitting with some seriously dodgy brass

I use a propane torch, heat the neck until the head (held in my fingers) becomes warm to the touch. At this point, I drop it in a bowl of water. Seems it shouldn't work at all.

Yet, I have just scrapped a batch of .375H&H brass that I bought in 1997. If I say that every case has been reloaded 20 times, it would be a conservative guess. I only anneal every 3-5 firings.

Works for me

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
Hey Doc, here is a quote from one of the other threads on annealing you posted.

quote:

If you let the color on the neck go beyond light blue, and the shine disappears, you’re on the edge of ruining the case, and you may already have gone too far. If you let the case get red, it’s a goner.

Here is a quote from you in this thread.

quote:

Here the process of softening is referred to as "annealing" and it is carried out by heating the work to above the critical temperature ie to a bright red heat

I am as confused as ever on how hot to get the brass.

Funny how that works as it has confused me much to my chagrin. The first quote is from just another guy on 6mmbr or benchrest.com that shoots in matches. The second quote is from a metallurgy-brass website.

What I took from both is simply the size and thickness of the brass to begin with. Taking into consideration a small diameter case for a firearm, I would not heat it until it was red, but just maybe when it begins to appear dull red.

The metal website wasn't considering brass thickness from what I could tell.

Attention ALL ; I shall attempt to lay rumors to rest and place facts before fictions .

Nothing More nothing Less !.

Annealing brass to make it softer and less brittle is fairly easy, but annealing cartridge cases is a more complex matter. Since the base of the case must be hard, it cannot be annealed. What is needed is a form of heat treatment called differential hardening, where heat is carefully applied to part of the case until the desired softness is reached, and then the heat treatment process is halted by rapidly cooling the case. Since annealing brass requires heating it to about 660 F (350 C), the heating must be done in such a way as to heat the neck to that temperature, while preventing the base of the case from being heated and losing its hardness. The traditional way is to stand the cases in a shallow pan full of water, then heat the necks of the cases with a torch, but this method makes it difficult to get an even heating of the entire case neck. A temperature sensitive crayon can be used at the point to which it is to be annealed, which is just behind the shoulder for bottlenecked cartridges, or at the bottom of the bullet seating depth for straight wall cartridges. The neck of the case is placed in a propane torch flame and heated it until the crayon mark changes color, indicating the correct temperature. Once the correct temperature is reached the case is completely quenched in water to stop the annealing process at the desired hardness. Another approach Failing to keep the base of the case cool can anneal the case near the head, where it must remain hard to function properly. Another approach is to immerse the case mouth in a molten alloy of lead that is at the desired annealing temperature for a few seconds, then quickly shake off the lead and quench the case.

I have always used the case head and partial body in water method as this " Prevents " induction softening of those parts by heat transfer . I personally have never seen adverse effects from allowing the standing water pan method verse's water dropping or tipping cases into the water .

Mine now drop into a bucket of water , as this is how My Engineer Buddy set up his Automatic machine . Cases set in water ,necks are heated via two torches then rotate in water bumped by an arm which drops them into a bucket of water .

THEY WORK PERIOD !.

I hope this Helps the lot of you .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

I'll start using water for a cool quench if I have any oopsies at the range.


One thing is certain and that is that the water certainly won't hurt anything.

BTW, I ordered the Hornady Annealing kit today. Shipped total is about $41.00.

Does brass glow at 660 degrees? In other words, if I am in a dark room with only the light of the torch, and I just begin to see a faint glow, am I at 660 degrees? If higher what is the approximate temperature?

Hart

I do not know. However, my Hornady kit arrived yesterday so I tried it out using the paste that came with it. As it turns out, 6-7 seconds in the flame was the right amount of time for neck annealing. During annealing, the case necks never did glow red, but just began a hint of it at the mouth. It was at this time that the temp paste liquified, which was applied 1/4" below shoulder.

I did all of my 270 AM, some 300 SAUM. Looks like no more than 7 seconds to anneal. But ideally, 5-6 seconds.

I've been saving a bunch of overworked 7x57 brass just for this thread.

Rick I got the Hornady annealer from midsouthshooterssupply for around 36.00 plus shipping.

used my cordless drill and propped the torch on the bunny ears front sandbag rest.

Called Hornady today to confirm if I did it correctly and they said yes. I did a total of 12 test rounds of various calibers and the temp paste began to melt b/w 5 and 7 seconds on all.

The guy at Hornady said that with my calibers it is a safe bet that 6 seconds will do all of them.

I got an email from a friend of a friend that has been annealing for decades and he has had up to 30 reloadings with 7mag brass, but he anneals after each firing.

Around here it is so easy to pick up 7RM brass that helping any along just isn't needed. Plus I don't run a lot of rounds thru it anyway. The 7x57 is a different story though. I also want to anneal some recently necked up 30-06 brass I us in my 35 Whelen.

Bench Rest shooters would need to weight in on my next statement . IMO !. It's not necessary to Anneal after every reloading or 4 or 6 .

The caliber and reloads middle of the road or Max . loads will determine how many times the brass is good for , before annealing is really necessary .

Glad to see it's working for you , so do what ever works for YOU !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

I don't plan on annealing after every shot on anything except maybe the big magnum where I neck down and change the shoulder. I may anneal those after each firing for the first 3-4. Now that I've done it, it doesn't take long at all and I'll only have 30-40 at a time. So we're talking about 5 minutes of my time.

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
Around here it is so easy to pick up 7RM brass that helping any along just isn't needed.

This is where annealing would be helpful, in evening out the neck hardness of brass of different lots, so that neck tension would be equal thereby enhancing accuracy.

When you say 270 AM do you mean Allen Mag?

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
When you say 270 AM do you mean Allen Mag?

yes

Annealed my first batch of 308 last night when the power was out due to a storm. I needed something to do in the dark and the GF wasn't around.

Used the water and pan method with the water about 1/2 way up the case. Heated necks in blue flame between a 7 and a 10 count before tipping them over. Never saw one turn red. At the end (should have done this first) I took one case and set it on the vise, heated the neck until it glowed red (a 15 count). I threw this one away since I didn't protect the case head from the heat.

Did I waste my time not getting a red glow on the case necks? Was my heating too conservative to do any good?

quote:

Originally posted by leoparddog:

Did I waste my time not getting a red glow on the case necks? Was my heating too conservative to do any good?

It is difficult to say, if you don't use a control case with the temp paste a time or two. Different brass takes different time. For examply, my 270 Win cases take exactly 6 seconds with 7 still in the apparent safetly zone. My 7mm RUM cases take 7-8 seconds. I haven't done them yet, but I'm thinking my 6.5x284 will take no more than 5 seconds.

You definitely annealed your cases, but possibly not enough.

Using the temp paste that came with my Hornady kit, I found that only my ultra mag cases start to get a touch of red when the stuff starts to liquify. One bench shooter suggested that when you get the red glow to start, increase the distance b/w the flame tip and the case neck and maintain the mild glow for another 5 seconds.

I went back last night and tried the "hold the case with bare fingers" method and placing them into water. In a very dark room most case necks would start to glow between a 7 and 10 count and then would go straight into the water.
I also held them a bit further out in the blue flame, not so close to the nozzle.

So the time in the heat was the same. The difference may have been that my water level on the first try was pretty high up the case or maybe the room wasn't dark enough or my vantage point was a bit different. These cases definitley looked like they had been annealed when I dried them off.

Hopefully I'm still in the safe range.

quote:

Originally posted by leoparddog:
I went back last night and tried the "hold the case with bare fingers" method and placing them into water. In a very dark room most case necks would start to glow between a 7 and 10 count and then would go straight into the water.
I also held them a bit further out in the blue flame, not so close to the nozzle.

So the time in the heat was the same. The difference may have been that my water level on the first try was pretty high up the case or maybe the room wasn't dark enough or my vantage point was a bit different. These cases definitley looked like they had been annealed when I dried them off.

Hopefully I'm still in the safe range.

I'm taking from this that you could hold them in your fingers for this long before they got too hot to hold any longer. Were these your 308 cases? I have always used this method but was told then that I was probably under annealing them. I never timed myself, hot was hot. It would seem that you can do them for as long with fingers as you want to with any other method. Must try some more & time myself.
Steve

If you want to find out if your annealing is working try the bite test before and after! roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If you want to find out if your annealing is working try the bite test before and after! roger

Seriously? 'Cause you know I might just try it. Will you put me on your dental plan if I break a tooth?

quote:

Originally posted by leoparddog:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If you want to find out if your annealing is working try the bite test before and after! roger

Seriously? 'Cause you know I might just try it. Will you put me on your dental plan if I break a tooth?

Yes I'm seriuos. I shit you not! I just anealed one and tested before and after and guess what ! It realy worked. I've done it for years but don't have a dental plan. PM me if you want particulars. roger

Roger are you biting the bullet again ?.

Sorry Roger I had to !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

I know a guy that bites the caps off of beer bottles, maybe I can hire him.

Seriously though I would like to hear this. I assume it is like the squeezing the neck with pliers method only with your teeth.

quote:

Originally posted by RollinsB:
I know a guy that bites the caps off of beer bottles, [color:RED]I use to do that when I was young and not too bright
Seriously though I would like to hear this. I assume it is like the squeezing the neck with pliers method only with your teeth.

Pliers? Pliers? We don't need no stinking pliers. Use your dominent eye tooth so you can see what you're doing. roger

quote:

Pliers? Pliers? We don't need no stinking pliers. Use your dominent eye tooth so you can see what you're doing. roger

How do I determine which of my eye teeth is the dominant one?

quote:

Originally posted by RollinsB:

How do I determine which of my eye teeth is the dominant one?

Hold a small dog at arms length and growl exposing the right eye tooth and then the left. The dog will whimper and turn away when the dominate eye tooth is exposed.

Sorry couldn't pass it up.