The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading who to believe? Nosler or IMRGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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sooo, Nosler says I can use 53gr of 4064 behind a 150gr BT. IMR says I can only use 51gr of 4064 behind the same bullet. ungh... a little frustrated with this! ______________________________________________________________________________ When people refer to a rifle as "ugly," what they are really saying is "push-feed." | ||
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The trick is to figure out the max for YOUR rifle. Start about 10% below the IMR max, and work up in small increments. For instance, In a similar situation I used a "ladder load". starting at 10% of the book max, and working up to the max in .3 gr steps. Look for pressure signs all along the way. Time consuming, but that is the safe way. In a related note, I once loaded up some .300 Savage off of Hornady book data, only to find out the book was for a bolt action rifle. Most .300's were in the Savage 99, and had to be loaded much lower. | |||
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You should also look at the test barrel used. Some use an actual firearm, others use a "test barrel" (wrong term I know but I can't think of the right one!). I am sure these are max loads anyway so you should start low and work up, but I am sure you have heard that before! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Nosler used a different primer. Nosler used a different case. Nosler used a different chamber/bore. Nosler may have used a slower powder lot. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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Believe your own rifle. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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A true statement if there ever was one. Regards, Keith | |||
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indeed, indeed... just trying to find a good starting point and don't know how low I should start. I'm going to use both 4064 and 4350 on 150grs, and do the "creighton whatshisname" method... and deciding where to START based on how high I might go is vexing me... would rather not have a range greater than about 4grs overall... ______________________________________________________________________________ When people refer to a rifle as "ugly," what they are really saying is "push-feed." | |||
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Start low and work up. If you are going got use the CA method on a cartridge in the 50 grain powder charge range, go up one grain at a time. You can always not shoot and pull the bullets if the pressure gets too high, say at 54 gr and you have rounds loaded at 55 and 56 grains. In a nonbench rest type rifle I prefer to load 3 rounds at each powder charge. If there is more than one area where "things" come together, then go back and go up in half grain increments. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Hey DH, You are getting excellent answers. The Manuals list both Starting and Max Loads "for their Test rifles", not your rifle. You may not be able to reach what they show as Max, may end up being the same, or may be able to exceed it slightly. Fortunately for everyone on the Board, it has recently been shown in a totally subjective Test that good old, never fail, always reliable, relatively inexpensive CHE & PRE will tell you more about real Pressure than will the waaaaaay too expensive and nearly worthless Haphazard SGSs. GLOAT Lots of folks get along fine without using CHE/PRE, but they do work. Best of luck to you. | |||
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It really ain't all that complex nor - as your manuals confirm - all that precise. Pick a low point that seems reasonable and safe, then start. | |||
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so, let me be really clear. WHAT ARE THE STARTING LOADS from these? go with the lessor to get started opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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thanks guys... I figure I've got a BIG range of possible charges, and I know I'd like to be over 50gr just from a velocity perspecitve, so I'll do .5gr increments starting at 48 up to 54. then take the "identified load" and go up and down a full grain in .3gr increments and load 5 of each (figure 3-shot groups with a mulligan if I botch a shot or two) I doubt I'll go past 54, even if I don't SEE pressure sings... its a sloppy-bolt mauser with a loose-throated old machine-gun barrel. methinks this is a gun that would benefit from NOT FL-sizing. ______________________________________________________________________________ When people refer to a rifle as "ugly," what they are really saying is "push-feed." | |||
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NO one can go wrong loading middle of the road loads !. From there work up one grain and " DOWN " one grain , see what " YOUR RIFLE PREFERS ". Anyone can MAX a load out what's the point ?. Accuracy is paramount , velocity is less than impressive !. The combination of the two is AWESOME !. It's what " Every Serious " hand loader stride's for .  | |||
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+1 for "Believe Your Rifle"! Good notes and careful shooting along the way may turn up a load the rifle shoots extremely well--which could well be much more valueable info than finding a max load. Good shooting, Dan | |||
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And the two bullets may (likely) have slightly different profiles. | |||
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Data will always vary. Diff. test platform & rarely identical components. It's why you need more than one source. I use 3, then avg. the max data & reduce that 10% & work upto that avg. max. If I still have room to go, then I will work up in 0.5gr increments until I reach the vel./accuracy level I am looking for & still be within tolerable pressures. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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eh, if I do that, I'll actually be starting BELOW some of the minimum loads... so I'm going to start with a common published minimum... ______________________________________________________________________________ When people refer to a rifle as "ugly," what they are really saying is "push-feed." | |||
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Nosler thinks that RL19 pushes 150gr bullets out of a 30-06 a lot faster than Alliant Powder Company does.  I have found that the powder companies are a lot more realistic about velocities than bullet manufacturers using the same recipes. ******************************************************* For every action, there is an equal and opposite malfunction. | |||
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LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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"NO one can go wrong loading middle of the road loads !." Generally true, but there IS the occasional exception. I know a guy who gets blown primers with a "mid-range" load of Varget in his near new Md. 70 Varmint in .22-250. | |||
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Very true! One thing that a lot of reloaders don`t concider is the bullet companies manuals list data for a given bullet WGT. The data you look at for a 150 gr 30 cal Ballistic Tip is valid data for the what ever bullet of that wgt Nosler makes, not just the BT. You may see a Nosler 150 gr 30 cal max of XX.Y gr of a certain powder in the 308 and Hodgdon listing XX.X grs for the 150 BT. Noslers max may well be the max for the 150 gr Partition and Compatition HP, but be a gr or so light for a BT. This is just one of the reasons for variation between the various sources of data... ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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If you ever wish to have some really entertaining reading, look at recommended loads for the 454 Casull in the Hornady and Speer Manuals. You don't know what frustration is until you find that the starting load in one manual is near the maximum load listed in another manual. | |||
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That's funny, using RL-19 and a Nosler 150BT (my GOTO deer load), I consistantly chronograph within 10fps of what Nosler reports. Using Sierra data, with Sierra 150's, all 4 powders used matched Sierra's within 10fps also. 3000fps with a 150 from the 30-06 isn't hard to do, with book loads, IF you have a properly built rifle Perhaps you should have your rifle repaired, rather than whine about the load data being off. | |||
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Didn't think I was whining at all, just stating the facts. The Tikka M695 in question shoots many loads to MOA and cloverleafs it's favorites when I do my part. Don't see the need for repairs. Nosler thinks that a max load of 61.5gr of RL19 will push a 15gr bullet 3030fps. Alliant thinks that a max load of RL19 is 63.5 (2gr. more) but will only push a 15gr bullet 2895fps. My chrony agrees with Alliants data. I tried RL19 based on Nosler's claims and have gone back to IMR 4350. NO COMPLAINTS HERE!!!  ******************************************************* For every action, there is an equal and opposite malfunction. | |||
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Mort That just goes to show you how trashed both those chambers are. Like I said, over 3 different chronographs, the last 20 years, 2 different barrels and 3 of 4 chambers* I've been running 2990-3020 with that combo. Each barrel was set back one time, the 2nd tube had a bubba job done to its first chamber by some PA "smith", that one would only hit 2725 with the same load (that repair cost me 1" of barrel off the breach end). I had it re-done after less than 100 rounds. My smith in Clarkston,MI did the other 3 chambers. Side note, when the average group opens up to 1MOA, I send it in for repairs. | |||
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I like to use common powders that have many sources of data. In your case 4064 qualifies. If you only use 2 sources and if one is a typo you do not know which source is off track. I have found some loads that are clearly typos in one manual so more sourrces than two are preferred. I use about 5 sources if I have them. Any stupid looking high or stupid looking lows are tossed out. The remaining sane appearing loads are used to determine a starting load. The max load I determine by a combination of the data and appearance of the case and primer. If there are any questions I check for case head expansion. Most of the time I stay way below case head expansion. | |||
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Tailgunner, Who is the smith in Clarkston? NRA Life Endowment Member | |||
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For those that like "conservative" data the data from the propellant companies is the answer to their prayers. Frankly I use whatever load data is provided b the bullet manufacturers. However I don't take that as gospel. Particularly in cases where the cartridge data is "censored" because of older, weaker firearms that the cartridge MAY be chambered in. Does anyone here actually believe that a Remington 700 becomes somehow magically weaker when it's chambered for a 30-06 cartridge instead of a 300Win Mag... of a 300RUM? the cartridges loaded for a particular rifle with loads worked up for that particular rifle... Non Issue. If the guys who own Ruger #1's chambered for the 45-70 cartridge thought that way there's be little point in owning a #1 AD AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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My Tikka m690 show almost exactly the same velocity drop from published loads as yours. Could it be to do with the 1-11 twist? | |||
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Mike, That would be Bruce McArthur aka Flint & Frizzen Gun Shop. 248-625-3333. An excellent gun smith. Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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Ghubert, Personally I don't see that I have a problem with velocity drop. The Tikka shoots very close to the published velocities from both Hodgdon(IMR) and Alliant. I have loaded and tested loads with IMR4350, IMR4064, Varget, H4381SC, RL19 and RL22. The rifle has shot max or near max charges of all of the above with no pressure signs. The velocities come back pretty close to what Hodgdon(IMR) and Alliant think the loads should shoot. I also have manuals from Hornady, Speer, Lyman and Nosler. While they differ from the powder companies manuals by small amounts here and there, Nosler seems to have more and much bigger discrepancies from what the powder companies manuals think that their powders should produce. Yes, I know different brands of brass, primers and bullets will produce different velocities. When I decide to try a given load I usually check what the powder company thinks the load will do and then what all the bullet companies think the bullet weight and powder charge should produce. The great majority of the time, the manuals will pretty much agree with each other on velocities for a given powder charge should give. The main difference between manuals is what what the different manuals think a maximum safe charge is. I guess that given the age of many 30-06 rifles out there, that is to be expected. In the end when you average the loads out and throw out a load from a manual that is more than 50-100fps from the rest of the bunch for that recipe, the Tikka shoots right about what is expected. No problems here!  ******************************************************* For every action, there is an equal and opposite malfunction. | |||
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Stepchild, Thank you. I may need to have my K-Hornet BRNO rechambered or rebarreled and want to have it done by someone good and local. NRA Life Endowment Member | |||
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Mike Tell him that Dennis and Bob from "up north" sent you. We've both known him for years. Bob | |||
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Thanks guys. This may happen in the near future as the BRNO is being worked on for an unrelated problem (light primer hits) at this time. NRA Life Endowment Member | |||
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The way I determine my start and max load is that I take all of the max loads from all of my data sources and divide that to determine what the average max load is. I reduce that by 10-15% and that is my start load and work up from there in 1/2 gr increments to my average max load and beyond paying attention to pressure signs. If that don't yield an acceptable load to fine tune withing .2 gr then I start playing with the data from the bullet manufacturer. | |||
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If you are not using the same brass and primer as the data, most often your results will vary. Start low and work up. IMR 4064 kicks but with 150 grain pills! | |||
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But not as much as Varget! Disabled Vet(non-combat) - US Army NRA LIFE MEMBER Hunter, trapper, machinest, gamer, angler, and all around do it your selfer. Build my own CNC router from scratch. I installed the hight wrong. My hight moves but the rails blocks 3/4 of the hight..... | |||
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There is a simple answer for this------it is called load development.. Too many people open a book see the top load and start there because they feel that the numbers are low by design. This is not smart by any means. In one of my 338 AI rifles I have a 250SMK gr load that was way too hot even 1 gr lower than what the manual stated. Called Rich and he informed me that the rifles used to develop the data was a Sako TRG. Just goes to show you that every rifle is different and when you are talking about customs that are cut on the lower side of the spec that is a whole different game. | |||
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