Do we really need Magnum rounds for North American Hunting? I used a computer ballistics program to compile the following comparisons of magnum vs non-magnum rounds. They are based on loads I found in the 12th edition of the Speer reloading manual (Speer gave test data based on actual rifles instead of pressure barrels). I tried to pick and compare loads a typical hunter in this country might use with the particular cartridge. I used a zero range of 200 yards for the data sets.

Please pay close attention to how close the 250 yard figures are to one another. I would venture the summation that 99% of all game taken in this country is taken at this range or closer. Also note how beyond 300 yards all the rounds go into an epizootic decline in trajectory, wind drift and energy.

Additionally, before anybody gets the notion that Ol� HBB is some sort of magnum hating stick in the mud please note that my favorite cartridge for hunting all critters great and small is the .300 Winchester magnum.

Now what do You all think?

HBB

Set I:
.223 Rem. 52 grain bthp @ 3448 fps (.253 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 MkII w/ 22 in bbl.

220 Swift 52 grain bthp-match @ 3844 fps (.253 BC)(pg. 159) Test Rifle: Ruger 77-V w/26 in. bbl.

Ballistic Comparison:
.223 Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3448 -1.5 0 0 1373 0
50 3125 0.42 0.48 0.05 1128 0.82
100 2840 1.43 1.86 0.1 931 1.99
150 2572 1.38 4.31 0.15 764 4.03
200 2322 0 8.09 0.22 623 7.07
250 2086 -3 13.49 0.28 502 11.27
300 1864 -8.02 20.9 0.36 401 16.81
350 1659 -15.55 30.83 0.45 318 23.92
400 1474 -26.25 43.93 0.54 251 32.84
450 1313 -40.98 61.06 0.65 199 43.81
500 1181 -60.78 83.25 0.77 161 56.94

.220 Swift Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3844 -1.5 0 0 1706 0
50 3600 -0.03 0.39 0.04 1496 0.66
100 3383 0.78 1.45 0.09 1322 1.34
150 3176 0.82 3.27 0.13 1165 2.48
200 2978 0 5.96 0.18 1024 4.14
250 2789 -1.81 9.63 0.23 898 6.36
300 2608 -4.73 14.42 0.29 785 9.18
350 2435 -8.95 20.5 0.35 685 12.67
400 2269 -14.64 28.05 0.41 594 16.89
450 2110 -22.01 37.29 0.48 514 21.91
500 1957 -31.36 48.5 0.55 442 27.83

SET II:

.243 Win. 100 grain btsp @ 2766 fps (.430 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 Mk II w 22 in barrel

240 Wby Mag. 105 grain Spitzer @ 3206 fps ( .443 BC) (page 179) Test Rifle: Wby Mk V w/ 24in. bbl

.243 Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2766 -1.5 0 0 1699 0
50 2655 0.83 0.7 0.06 1565 0.63
100 2551 1.94 2.63 0.12 1445 1.21
150 2450 1.7 5.9 0.18 1333 2.19
200 2352 0 10.63 0.24 1228 3.59
250 2256 -3.27 16.94 0.3 1130 5.44
300 2162 -8.26 24.96 0.37 1038 7.77
350 2071 -15.12 34.85 0.44 952 10.6
400 1981 -23.99 46.76 0.52 871 13.98
450 1894 -35.1 60.9 0.59 797 17.92
500 1810 -48.64 77.47 0.67 727 22.48

.240 Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3206 -1.5 0 0 2397 0
50 3086 0.32 0.53 0.05 2220 0.59
100 2976 1.22 1.98 0.1 2065 1.05
150 2868 1.14 4.41 0.15 1918 1.82
200 2763 0 7.9 0.2 1780 2.93
250 2661 -2.28 12.53 0.26 1651 4.38
300 2561 -5.8 18.4 0.32 1529 6.2
350 2463 -10.65 25.6 0.38 1414 8.4
400 2368 -16.94 34.24 0.44 1307 11
450 2275 -24.78 44.43 0.5 1207 14.04
500 2184 -34.3 56.3 0.57 1112 17.53

SET III:

257 Roberts +P 120 grain btsp @2793 fps (.435 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 MK II w/24 in barrel

257 Wby Mag. 120 grain BTSP @ 3199 fps(.435 BC) (page 195) Test Rifle: Wby Mk V w/24 in bbl

.257 Roberts Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2793 -1.5 0 0 2079 0
50 2682 0.79 0.69 0.06 1917 0.62
100 2579 1.88 2.58 0.11 1772 1.19
150 2479 1.65 5.79 0.17 1638 2.14
200 2381 0 10.42 0.24 1511 3.51
250 2285 -3.19 16.58 0.3 1391 5.31
300 2192 -8.05 24.42 0.37 1280 7.58
350 2101 -14.73 34.08 0.44 1176 10.33
400 2012 -23.37 45.7 0.51 1079 13.61
450 1925 -34.18 59.49 0.59 987 17.44
500 1841 -47.33 75.62 0.67 903 21.86

.257 Wby. Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3199 -1.5 0 0 2727 0
50 3077 0.33 0.53 0.05 2523 0.59
100 2964 1.24 1.99 0.1 2341 1.06
150 2853 1.16 4.43 0.15 2169 1.86
200 2746 0 7.95 0.21 2009 3
250 2641 -2.31 12.63 0.26 1859 4.5
300 2539 -5.88 18.56 0.32 1718 6.38
350 2440 -10.8 25.84 0.38 1586 8.65
400 2343 -17.17 34.58 0.44 1463 11.35
450 2248 -25.15 44.92 0.51 1347 14.49
500 2156 -34.84 56.97 0.58 1239 18.1

Set IV:
6.5x 55 Mauser 140 grain spitzer @ 2671 (.496 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 MkII w/ 22 in barrel

264 Win. Mag. 140 grain spitzer @ 3130 fps (.496 BC) (page 204) Test Rifle: 700Rem w/24 in barrel

6.5x55 Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2671 -1.5 0 0 2218 0
50 2577 0.94 0.74 0.06 2065 0.61
100 2489 2.08 2.79 0.12 1926 1.13
150 2403 1.79 6.26 0.18 1795 2.01
200 2318 0 11.23 0.24 1670 3.27
250 2236 -3.41 17.83 0.31 1554 4.92
300 2155 -8.58 26.18 0.38 1444 6.99
350 2076 -15.62 36.4 0.45 1340 9.5
400 1998 -24.67 48.64 0.52 1241 12.48
450 1923 -35.91 63.06 0.6 1150 15.94
500 1849 -49.51 79.84 0.68 1063 19.92

.264 Mag. Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3130 -1.5 0 0 3046 0
50 3024 0.37 0.55 0.05 2843 0.57
100 2926 1.29 2.06 0.1 2662 1
150 2831 1.19 4.58 0.15 2492 1.71
200 2737 0 8.2 0.21 2329 2.73
250 2645 -2.36 12.98 0.26 2175 4.06
300 2556 -5.96 19.01 0.32 2031 5.72
350 2468 -10.9 26.37 0.38 1894 7.73
400 2382 -17.26 35.16 0.44 1764 10.1
450 2299 -25.17 45.49 0.51 1643 12.85
500 2217 -34.72 57.47 0.57 1528 16

SET V:

.270 Winchester 130 grain btsp @ 3117 fps (.449 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 Mk II 22 in barrel

270Wby. Mag. 150 grain btsp @ 3249 fps ( .496 BC) ( page 211) Test Rifle: Wby Mk V w/ 26in bbl

.270Win Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3117 -1.5 0 0 2805 0
50 3001 0.4 0.56 0.05 2600 0.59
100 2893 1.33 2.09 0.1 2416 1.06
150 2788 1.23 4.65 0.16 2244 1.86
200 2686 0 8.35 0.21 2083 3
250 2586 -2.44 13.25 0.27 1930 4.5
300 2488 -6.19 19.46 0.33 1787 6.37
350 2393 -11.34 27.07 0.39 1653 8.64
400 2300 -18.02 36.21 0.45 1527 11.33
450 2210 -26.35 47 0.52 1410 14.46
500 2121 -36.46 59.57 0.59 1299 18.06

.270Wby Mag Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3249 -1.5 0 0 3516 0
50 3140 0.26 0.52 0.05 3284 0.57
100 3040 1.14 1.92 0.1 3078 0.97
150 2941 1.08 4.26 0.15 2881 1.65
200 2845 0 7.62 0.2 2696 2.62
250 2751 -2.16 12.05 0.25 2521 3.89
300 2659 -5.46 17.63 0.31 2355 5.47
350 2569 -10 24.45 0.37 2198 7.37
400 2481 -15.86 32.59 0.43 2050 9.63
450 2395 -23.14 42.15 0.49 1911 12.24
500 2311 -31.94 53.23 0.55 1779 15.23

SET VI:

280 Remington 140 btsp@ 2976 (.502 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 Mk II 24 in bbl.

7MM Wby. Mag. 160 grain btsp @ 3082 fps (.556 BC) (page 235) Test Rifle: Wby. Mk V w/24 in barrel.

.280 Rem. Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2976 -1.5 0 0 2753 0
50 2876 0.53 0.61 0.05 2571 0.58
100 2782 1.51 2.27 0.11 2406 1.03
150 2690 1.35 5.06 0.16 2250 1.78
200 2601 0 9.05 0.22 2103 2.85
250 2513 -2.65 14.34 0.28 1963 4.26
300 2428 -6.67 21 0.34 1833 6.02
350 2344 -12.19 29.15 0.4 1708 8.14
400 2262 -19.28 38.88 0.47 1591 10.64
450 2182 -28.08 50.32 0.53 1480 13.56
500 2103 -38.7 63.58 0.6 1375 16.89

7MM Wby. Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3082 -1.5 0 0 3375 0
50 2989 0.4 0.57 0.05 3174 0.56
100 2902 1.33 2.11 0.1 2992 0.94
150 2817 1.21 4.69 0.16 2819 1.59
200 2734 0 8.37 0.21 2656 2.5
250 2652 -2.38 13.22 0.27 2499 3.7
300 2572 -6 19.31 0.32 2350 5.19
350 2494 -10.94 26.71 0.38 2210 6.99
400 2417 -17.28 35.52 0.44 2076 9.1
450 2341 -25.12 45.83 0.51 1947 11.55
500 2268 -34.54 57.72 0.57 1828 14.35

Set VII:
30/06 Sprg. 165 btsp @ 2803 (.477 BC ) Test Rifle: 700 Rem 22 in bbl.

300 Win. Mag. 180 grain btsp @3059 fps (.540 BC) (page 313) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 Mk II w/ 24 in bbl.

.30/06 Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2803 -1.5 0 0 2879 0
50 2702 0.76 0.68 0.06 2675 0.6
100 2607 1.82 2.55 0.11 2490 1.11
150 2515 1.6 5.71 0.17 2318 1.98
200 2425 0 10.24 0.23 2155 3.2
250 2337 -3.08 16.26 0.3 2001 4.82
300 2251 -7.76 23.88 0.36 1857 6.84
350 2166 -14.17 33.22 0.43 1719 9.3
400 2084 -22.43 44.42 0.5 1591 12.2
450 2003 -32.71 57.63 0.57 1470 15.59
500 1924 -45.14 73 0.65 1356 19.49

.300 Win Mag Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 3059 -1.5 0 0 3740 0
50 2964 0.42 0.58 0.05 3511 0.57
100 2875 1.37 2.14 0.1 3304 0.97
150 2788 1.24 4.77 0.16 3107 1.64
200 2703 0 8.52 0.21 2920 2.59
250 2619 -2.44 13.46 0.27 2742 3.84
300 2537 -6.15 19.67 0.33 2573 5.4
350 2457 -11.21 27.24 0.39 2413 7.27
400 2379 -17.73 36.26 0.45 2262 9.49
450 2302 -25.77 46.81 0.51 2118 12.05
500 2227 -35.47 59.01 0.58 1982 14.98

SET VIII:

.338/06 225bgrain btsp @ 2678fps (.484 BC) Test Rifle: A-Square w/23 in bbl.

338 Win Mag 225 grain btsp @ 2981 fps (.484 BC) (page 350) Test Rifle: 70 Win. w/24 in bbl

.338/06 Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2678 -1.5 0 0 3583 0
50 2581 0.94 0.74 0.06 3328 0.61
100 2491 2.07 2.78 0.12 3100 1.14
150 2403 1.79 6.24 0.18 2885 2.05
200 2316 0 11.2 0.24 2680 3.33
250 2232 -3.41 17.79 0.31 2489 5.03
300 2149 -8.59 26.14 0.38 2307 7.15
350 2068 -15.63 36.36 0.45 2137 9.72
400 1989 -24.73 48.63 0.52 1977 12.78
450 1911 -36.02 63.1 0.6 1825 16.34
500 1836 -49.71 79.96 0.68 1684 20.43

.338 Win Mag Data:

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2981 -1.5 0 0 4440 0
50 2877 0.53 0.61 0.05 4135 0.59
100 2780 1.52 2.26 0.11 3861 1.05
150 2685 1.36 5.05 0.16 3602 1.83
200 2592 0 9.05 0.22 3357 2.95
250 2501 -2.66 14.35 0.28 3125 4.41
300 2413 -6.71 21.04 0.34 2909 6.23
350 2326 -12.27 29.23 0.4 2703 8.44
400 2242 -19.44 39.04 0.47 2511 11.06
450 2159 -28.33 50.57 0.54 2329 14.1
500 2077 -39.1 63.98 0.61 2155 17.58

Of course not. I don't NEED 25 rifles either. Or half a dozen horses or 2 race cars, but it sure is a lot more fun. Come to think of it I don't need to go hunting either! Think I will though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hillbillybear:
Do we really need Magnum rounds for North American Hunting?

Yes !! I do

Nope. Just keep the same cartridges and take off the work "Magnum".

HBB, I have a question I've wanted to ask before, a good time now.
How do you copy and paste the statistics from your ballistics program to the post here?
What program were you able to do it with?
I have tried before but I'm doing something wrong because it didn't work, I assume you did not type all that, or DID you?

Back to the original question .
I think the clothes we wear could all be the same too, but that would suck too. Seriously, advancments in accuracy and so many other things reguarding cartridges and guns why put the fire out now? Who knows what's around the corner from here?
It may come to that someday soon anyway, just before we loose them all for good.
Your point is well taken and very valid too.

For any hunting in North Carolina, no.

In the windy, wide open west where ranges can be longer and the game can vary from a 20 lb coyote or 95 lb antelope to a 800 lb elk... yeah, magnum's can come in handy.

I sometimes wonder if question's like this are posted to reinforce choices which have already been made

BA

Brent,
Here is a link to the ballistics program I used for the data.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

The way I get my stuff to post is I run the tables then I copy and paste it to Microsoft Word then I copy and paste this to posting area on the AR forum. It may not be the best way but it do work for me.
I hope this helps.

Thanks for your Input and Good Shooting,
HBB

No, but then we don't "need" a 400hp small block in a Camaro either, but it sure is fun. I can/could kill any animal I have ever or will ever hunt with my 257DGR or for sure with my 35 Whelen AI, but hey I have a 300 win mag too, and when it comes to big bucks, long shots, well it is really nice to have.

I like "big" bore as the .338RUM loaded with a 200 grs bullet,why I choose this one among non magnum, what is wrong with more potential energy,what really counts is where one put his shoot on the target(game).

"epizootic"???

I gotta go dig out the dictionary for that one.

I like some of the magnum cartridges--.300 Win, .338 Win, 340 Wby, .375 H&H, and the .416 Rem & Rigby. I don't like the recoil on some of them, though. It isn't unmanageable, just not my idea of fun. I'm finding myself more and more going back to the .270 Win, 7x57, and .338-06 AI. Very few of the animals I have taken required a magnum, but when needed (and provided the operator can handle the cartridge proficiently) nothing else quite gets the job done. My NA hunting is mostly for deer, elk and pronghorn in the western half and I rarely take shots of over 250 yards. I guess my take on the magnums is that they're not often needed. When I take one to the field it is after ALOT of practice. Whatever floats your boat!

Good Hunting,

Hot Core, finally got to see a bull the other day in Ky. All I have seen was calfs and cows. One of the calfs was walking up to people at the coal mines. DNR came in and killed it quietly that night we think. Somebody said it was a possible sign of one of the diseases. I didn't know they made it down to NC.

And to add to the post and answer the original question. "What does it matter" Who cares what the other hunter is shooting. Too busy to worry about bull like that.

[ 01-06-2003, 19:18: Message edited by: bigcountry ]

No we don't unless your one of those folk that can't shoot at anything less 500 yds away. I'm sorry that would be those LRH folk! For rest of us normal hunters no need for MAGNUM's! We get close enough that are Non-Magnums work just fine.

The Range is open -fire at will!!!

Well hot bore, I did backpack the entire Appalachian Trail in North Carolina in 1977 and my mother moved there in 1988 after tiring of northern winters so I suppose I KNOW a bit more about your state than you might think, and actually have covered more of it on foot than most blowhard's like you. So how many elk have you shot in NC? I've run into bears and boars in the mountains of NC... big ones, but at ranges where an 06 or 35 Whelen would be more than adequate. As I said, deer are easy to kill... any "bean field" shooting can be more than amply done with a 270... unless you just like recoil for recoil's sake. The only reason I like the power of a 338 WM here in SW Montna is because of grizzly bears... how many of those do you deal with in NC?

Grow up little man

You big tough guy you.

Anybody that hikes that trail, we kinda laugh at here in this part of the country. Usually drive pink volvos, and were hippies and now superyups. Thought it was funny someone bragging about it.

Easy fellas. What say we talk about the need for magnums or back to that little issue our friends in Indiana are up against. Magnums may be all we have left, unless they can be shot from an autoloader, if this stuff gets a foothold. They have already submitted a Fiscal Analysis showing all those that might dare vote against this obviously logical bill that you are supporting 'bad guns and ammo' at the expense of the Education Fund, State and general Funds. Don't underestimate the politickers ability to weasel this stuff through. Here is an extracted quote:

From Indiana House Bill 1011
"Provides that the manufacture, importation, sale, or possession of ammunition for a machine gun, an automatic weapon, or a semiautomatic weapon is a Class C felony."

This IS a problem, not who can flame who...

XWind

What HolyCore, no more smart ass comments toward's someone who never addressed you. Jack Belk isn't on this thread so maybe you could kick him around as he's not looking. Perhap's you've never walked the mountains of NC... or CAN'T?

Hillbillybear, very interesting data. Did you notice that in .224 a difference of approx. 400 fps changed the drift and energy figures dramatically, especially at 500 yards. As you go up in caliber the drift and energy differences are much less between the standard and magnum rounds.

HolyBore... I'll take your silence to mean you're a lard ass

Back to the subject at hand, yes indeed we need magnum cartridges for NA big game hunting. Looking at the original charts that were posted there is enough difference with either velocity or bullet weight (take your pick) to reduce wind drift quite a bit at 300 yards. Most people seem to be worried about drop, this is relatively easy to compensate for if you are an expert at judging distance (or use modern technology). I haven't seen any technology to help you figure out wind drift yet. If you hunt Texas, and I'm sure most of the mountain states, you'll find yourself hunting in winds of 15-20 mph often and sometimes more.

More importantly, magnums give us an entire genre of firearms we need to buy because "we don't have one in that caliber yet".

Nope Brad, just don't have time for bullshit like that.

Hot Core, it was Christmas day. He was a nice 5X5. It was way back there though. We were out turkey scouting. I just can't believe my eyes seeing and hearing big elk in Eastern Ky. We got 50 yards to him and he smelled us. Going to take my camera in a few weeks.

Yes, I really need my Magnums. But then again I also really need my Non-Magnums. When I bowhunted exclusively, I didn't think I even needed a rifle. OK, I forget, what is the question again. Good shooting.

HBB,

For those of us that can really shoot, have proper shooting etiquette and an experienced level of displine, magnums ain't necessary...BUT, my friend we are living in an age if instant gratification and the masses NEED Magnums, and we need them to have'em, or else we'll face an even greater assault from the animal rights Bozos...Viva magnums, and let the shooters (all 100 or so of us, ha, ha!)shoot what we like and succeed!... Me I love the .30-.30!

JW

No, but they give gun writers and gun nuts and gun experimenters something to talk about, write about, and experiment with. Do we really need all these different brands of toothpaste or beer, or colors of automobiles? Again, no, but they give people choices and make for a more diverse existence.

Well yes we need Magnum rounds!! This is the UNITED STATES of AMERICA..........Big Engines.......BIG SUV's........Big GULP ......Big Penises........and above all MAGNUM rounds.
Fireball

hillbillybear,
I've had a bunch of rifles over the years. Now that I've gotten a little gimpy, I've sold off or given all but one rifle away. The one I kept is a .30-06. I have traded for another rifle in .308W, but that was to have something to play with. So I guess in a round about way, I'm saying I don't think that the magnums are really necessary for hunting in the lower 48. But I'd be the first one to say that the mags are great to play with. If a mag is what trips your wire, happy tripping.

[ 01-13-2003, 13:22: Message edited by: BigBob ]

In any venue you may choose to excell it is desire and want not need that drives us all. You need water, food, shelter, to fuel the human machine in order to maintain it's life support systems. All inventions and inovations have come to pass through desire and want. Should desire and want be eliminated from the human psyche all posotive progress will cease. I applaude and welcome every new rifle and cartridge that is developed. All those small private shops and major rifle factories producing them. They are the life and breath of the American rifle industry. The American military machine would not have the tools it now does without men like John Browings, Colt, Smith and Wesson, Winchester, Weatherby, Ruger, Remington, genius fueled by their desire and want to excell and succeed. We want and desire them all but do not need any of them.

Well said Reloader66.