The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Shell holder for Norma 7X61 casesGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Shell holder for Norma 7X61 cases | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
I recently acquired a Shultz and Larsen rifle in caliber 7X61 Sharpe and Hart. At roughly the same time, I thought I was lucky in locating 50 rounds of loaded ammunition in Norma cases. They didn't appear to be reloads, but when I broke them down, they clearly were. The reason I broke them down was they would not chamber in my rifle. I have a set of 7X61 dies and I pulled the bullets from 20 of the cases, emptied the powder and prepared to resize and reload, when I discovered that the shell holder I had been using, which I thought was an RCBS No. 4 was actually an RCBS No. 41, and although it had held the cases during the bullet p=ulling process, I was unwilling to try resizing them using the oversize shell holder. Then I discovered that an RCBS No. 4 was too small for the case head and reading up on the cartridge I discovered that Norma cases came in two sizes. One had case heads identical to the .300 H&H for which the No. 4 shell holder is intended, but the other size is larger and will not fit in it. Has anyone else encountered this problem and if so, is there a solution, other than trashing the cases and forming cases out of brass with the standard H&H head size? The Norma brass is otherwise in good condition and of course correctly head stamped for the caliber. | ||
|
One of Us |
The RCBS No. 26 is listed as right for the 7x61S&H. It may depend on which version of the 7x61S&H brass you have--the original, marked 7x61S&H or the more-recent, marked 7x61 Super. I have 7x61 Super cases, and both my No. 4 and No. 26 shellholders work fine with them. This has me wondering whether the No. 26 is needed for the earlier 7x61S&H brass, but the No. 4 is fine with the later 7x61 Super cases. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
|
One of Us |
I've owned and reloaded for 2 Schultz and Larsen 7x61 rifles and have encountered no difference in cases in so far as the shell holder is concerned between different ages/lots of the original S&H Norma cases and the later Super cases. The correct RCBS shell holder for the 7x61 is #26 which also works with my 404 Jeffery cases. Not sure why you thought your loaded ammo was factory although Norma did load some lots of their ammo with Hornady 154gr Spire Point bullets and also used 160gr Nosler Partition bullets in some of their earlier lots of 7x61 Super ammo they produced. The fact they would not chamber in your rifle was obviously the give away that they were not factory. I settled on the 160gr Sierra SPBT bullets for my 7x61. Loaded to 3000fps with IMR4831 these performed extremely well at short range and exceptionally well at longer ranges on several deer species, chamois and tahr. My father had the first 7x61 in the family and when the Super ammo first came out we found the 160 gr Norma bullets too hard and they shot through animals without setting up. Found another supply of the then obsolete original S&H ammo and got back into killing deer the way we used to. I section a bullet from the original S&H ammo and one from the new super ammo and the darker lead core in the S&H bullet indicated a softer lead that the silver colour of the lead alloy core in the super bullet. The Norma catalogue advertising for the new Super ammo contained pictures of lions and other African game, indicating Norma were promoting the 7x61 to American hunters as suitable for African use. I had a large supply of the S&H cases so used these in preference to the Super cases and always sized the cases to headspace on the shoulder rather than the belt. This gave good life of the cases. The rear locking Schultz and Larsen rifle was erroneously credited with short case life but this was just a combination of sloppy fitting Norma ammo headspacing on the belt and reloaders full length resizing cases back to a sloppy fit each time, plus the 7x61 is loaded to a good pressure pushing the original 160gr Norma SBT bullets along at 3100fps. The primers on the Norma factory ammo were quite flattened on firing however extraction was normal and case life good if partially sized to headspace on the shoulder when reloading. | |||
|
| One of Us |
That's really useful information, eagle27. I've wondered about brass life with my Schultz & Larsen M68DL in 7x61S&H and its rear-locking bolt. Did you neck-size your brass to extend brass life? How many reloads have you been able to get from the your brass? I imagine that keeping loads below maximum--and thus pressures lower--is a good idea with this brass and the rear lockup. The original 7x61S&H brass was considerably thicker than the later 7x61 Super brass in the case wall just ahead of the web. (The 7x61 Super case has about 5-grain greater capacity than the earlier 7x61S&H case.) Since case-head separations occur in this region of the brass, I'm wondering whether the original 7x61S&H brass has held up better over several reloadings than does the newer, lighter 7x61 Super brass, where the brass has been thinned somewhat in that area to increase case volume. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
|
| One of Us |
Just one other point: it sounds as though you have used the RCBS No. 26 shellholder with both the early 7x61S&H cases and the later 7x61 Super cases. However, perhaps you haven't used the No. 4 shellholder with your 7x61 Super brass. I have used the No. 4 with all my 7x61 Super brass, and it works fine. Just a thought re xausa's question. If he has the No. 4 and is using only 7x61 Super cases, he may be fine with that shellholder (particularly if the No. 26 is now obsolete or hard to find). ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
|
| One of Us |
My cases won't fit into No. 4 shelll holders. I'll have to look, but I'm fairly confident that I have No. 26 shell holders. I have over 100 sets of dies and shell holders to fit all the calibers represented. I also have a .404 Jeffrey on a Magnum Mauser (Oberndorf) action and an Oberndorf DSB sporter in 10.75X68, which I believe has the same head size as the Jeffrey. | |||
|
| One of Us |
You are correct, the S&H brass has thicker case walls ahead of the web. An article published in an old Reloading Digest I have recorded the author making up a 6.5 x 61 belted magnum using various belted cases and the point was made by him that the 7x61 S&H case had the thickest walls than any of the other belted cases he tried forming for the 6.5 Magnum. I just backed off my FL sizing die and sized the necks until a snug fit in the chamber. Never really kept track of how many times I reloaded cases, was shooting a lot of animals and reloading the cases I had, a mix of factory fired and new unfired brass. My load giving 3000fps with the Sierra 160gr bullet seemed slightly less intense than the factory loaded ammo which showed very flattened primers, although of course a different primer was being used. My reloads chronographed at an average 3000fps in my M60 26" barreled Schultz and Larsen and were loaded on S&H cases with CCI 200 primers and 59.0grs IMR4831. A single Norma Factory S&H 160gr SBT chronographed at 3040fps from the same rifle (Norma quoted MV was 3100fps). I did have a M65 for quite a while but never chronographed ammo in it. I did try out other bullets but found the 160gr Sierra couldn't be beaten for accuracy and performance on game which seemed identical to that given by the Norma 160gr bullet used in their S&H ammo. I think the rear locking short case life was a myth as far as the Schultz and Larsen rifle goes, those four rear locking lugs are massive and the thick walled tubular action with minimal cut outs for the magazine and ejection port made for an exceedingly strong action. Tolerances in the Danish made S&L rifle were also tight making for an exceedingly smooth and strong action. Allegedly they were tested to 120,000psi without any issues. True, as with all bottle neck belted magnums partially resizing to headspace on the shoulder and keeping loads reasonable will prolong cases but then again the magnums outshine most standard cartridges in any calibre by having larger cases, higher loading intensities and generally longer barrels. There are no free lunches when gaining the sort of performances that these magnums are capable of. IMHO and seemingly of many others, the 7x61 S&H could hold its own in the company of any of the 7mm magnums. | |||
|
| one of us |
I have had a couple S&L rifles in 7x61. Very early brass had a slightly larger diameter case head that required the # 26 shellholder. Norma must of had trouble with the cases that resulted in premature case head separation.I have 2 lots of older 7x61 brass. One lot needs the # 26 holder and the other lot will fit in the # 4 or the # 26 holder. Newer cases stamped 7x61 super will all fit the # 4 holder | |||
|
| One of Us |
I had a 7X61 for some time, years ago. I have the RCBS dies set and a shell holder marked '19', but I don't really know if it's and RCBS SH... might be a Pacific. My rifle was not a S&L, but a Mathieu and chambered for the original 7X61 cartridge. I converted to 7mm RM to avoid these issues. Also wanted a faster twist = the S&H, with it's 1-12 twist, never handled 175 Noslers well at all. Still have boxes of Norma brass at my other house in California... unknown when I will return, but I have no use for the brass. PM me if you'd like to get it eventually. | |||
|
| one of us |
I use a Lee number 5 for my 7x61. - dan "Intellectual truth is eternally one: moral or sentimental truth is a geographic and chronological accident that varies with the individual" R.F. Burton | |||
|
| One of Us |
It's certainly true that the Schultz & Larsen actions on the M54J, M60, M65, and M68 were exceedingly strong. I read that they were tested to 129,000 psi and held up. Their strength was one of the reasons Roy Weatherby first used the S&L M56 action (virtually the same as the other S&L actions) for his .378 Wby. Mag. cartridge when he first introduced it. However, all that strength (admirable as it may be) doesn't prevent the inevitable stretching of the action (endemic to all rear-locking actions) that works the brass excessively and leads to shorter-than-normal brass life over several resizings. I guess that this problem can be mitigated somewhat by careful resizing of cases—either by neck-only sizing or full-length resizing with the shoulder not bumped back—and the use of less-than-full power loads. I’d be interested in hearing from others who have reloaded for their Schultz & Larsen rifles as to how many reloads their cases could take before head separations. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks to everyone for the most useful comments. I turned out to have two No. 26 shell holders and they worked perfectly with the old brass I rustled up. The rounds were loaded with 64.5 grains of ? (probably H4831) and a boat tailed 160 grain bulet of some description. I resized them (child's play in my Big Max) and loaded them with 62.5 grains of IMR 4831 and Hornady 162 grain ELD X bullets. They produced a compresed powder charge but no presure signs whatsoever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Xausa, I'd be interested in hearing about your experience handloading for your 7x61S&H. Which model of Schultz & Larsen is yours? Can you tell whether it has some freebore? My M68DL has a long throat that prevents my seating the bullets near the lands. I'd be interested in knowing how many reloads you will be able to get from your brass. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
|
| One of Us |
From memory 64.0grs Norma 205 was the factory load for the 160gr bullet in their S&H cartridges so your cartridges may have been loaded with Norma 205 or Norma MRP (same thing basically). As mentioned earlier I used 59.0grs IMR4831 with the Sierra 160gr bullet in S&H cases which gave 3000fps MV in my M60 rifle. It had the 1:12 twist so was possibly a 'faster' barrel than the 1:10 twist barrels used in the later models. The 160gr bullets, Norma factory or Sierra stabilised perfectly in the 1:12 twist however 175gr bullets that I tried, Speer 175gr Mag SS and Norma RNSP, did not. The M60 was cock on closing which made for a fast operating bolt action. | |||
|
Moderator |
the 404 and 10.75x68 are different rims, the 10,75x73 is the same size as the 404, as it's the same caliber, in metric designation opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Shell holder for Norma 7X61 cases
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia