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Your mileage may vary, but I'll stick with polymer tips or MATCHKINGS go ahead and flame away boys,..I can't feel your fire,..I'm busy sweating from dragging all these deer out of the soybean fields of Delmarva Like Justin said.  I've killed a few deer with 150NBTs, both in 708 and 06, all under 80yds., they do a fine job, blood trail a blind man could follow, though I did load some 180s for my brother-in-law last year for his 300WSM Browning, I'm of the belief that when shooting magnums one should use a heavier bullet to help reduce meat damage if one cares about such things. Jay | ||
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not to flame but I have heard that matchkings will shed their jacket and not expand, is that true? If that happens you might as well use a FMJ or something. What are your experiences with them? | |||
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Considering that the core of a SMK is pure lead, as opposed to the alloyed lead that makes up most hunting cores, failure to expand is NOT a problem. Any (non-bonded) cup and core bullet can lose it's jacket and/or blowup if used above it's designed IMPACT velocity range (and fail to expand if used below it). The SMK and BT's expand reliably at lower velocity's than most other bullets, which is why they're the bullets of choice for those people that "reach out and touch somthing", and why there hated by the (insert derogatory term of choice here) that feel that a 300RUM with 125gr bullets at 3850fps is perfect for sub-50yd deer hunting. Of course some of the "unbelievers" only know that they heard a friend say that their second cousins ex-wifes brother-in-law met a guy that heard a rumor...and that's all the proof they need. | |||
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Quote: Another wannabe shooter. I am at 23 whitetail in the last 3 months on the permits. Add hunting seasons and then multiply that times 16yrs and see what number you come up with "expert"  Jay,..good to see you. I can't beleive a few pounds of meat loss is still even a credible argument,.....Jesus was using that one back when he was a private. I just don't eat the ribs Tailgunner,..I wholeheartedly agree on the light pill at light speed, up close statement. These dude's waste barrel life like they get a prize for it,..then explode bullets at 2" of penetration and tell the story of how this 36 point buck that weighed 450lbs soaked up their most powerful handload and ran off. They tracked him for 3 miles and finally lost the bloodtrail (at least that is how the rest of the lodge hears it)  Non-beleivers,..please go buy some softpoints and reduce the demand for them so that the price becomes even more agreeable to us bunch of bumpkins   | |||
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Your post "of the several hundred different animals of all sizes" lead me to believe that you were refering to several different species. I believe now, that you were refering to mostly, if not only whitetail deer. Even at that, it's still a pretty impressive record for a hunter reguardless of what bullet is used. Could be that most of those shots were under more controlled circumstances? In any event, since I entered the discussion I may as well share my balistic tip experience. A few years ago I used my first BT on a small whitetail buck at around 40 yards. It was a 150 grain from a 7-08 at around 2,700fps muzzle velocity. The bullet hit a rib and exploded on the surface leaving a softball size hole through the skin that was easily visible with the naked eye from approximately 80 yards away where the deer stopped. I put a second shot just under his ear and dropped him. As I understand the balistic tip has seen some changes since then and they may be a better bullet now but so what! Burn me once shame on you, the second time, shame on me. I don't claim to be an "Expert" anything but that's just common scence. | |||
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When building up a load, compare apples to apples. A 260 grain BT and a 260 grain Accubond.....same ballistic co-effecient, weight, shape, only 20 bucks a box cheaper. Thats what I am talking about. Why waste money punching holes in paper with bullets worth twice as much?!? | |||
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Quote: I have seen similar results, but can't blame the bullet. It happened when a deer, which was directly facing me, moved/turned as I pulled the trigger. I was aiming for the center of the chest, and hit behind the shoulder at a very high raking angle. The bullet ended up in the opposite side ham...that's right, from ribs on 1 side to rear leg on the other. Entrance shattered 3 ribs wide for about 4" high. 165 grain from a 300WSM, less than 75 yards. Did the bullet "explode on impact with a rib"? Maybe. Was it the bullet's fault? No. Would it qualify as a humane kill? Down in 20 yards an <10 seconds...yes in my book. It is also the only time I have ever been able to recover a BT...and it went for something like 18-20" penetration. Nothing resembling a lung was found in the chest. It still ran 20 yards....sometimes adrenaline will carry a deer that far no matter what you hit it with if you don't hit the brain/spine. Anyone who hunts long enough will have 'shit happen' and no bullet choice will prevent that. It is up to the nut behind the trigger to stack the odds in their favor...and properly matched BT's, ranges, cartridges, and whitetail deer do that IMHO. YMMV! | |||
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Here's a revelation: NOSLER themselves do NOT recommend the BT for heavier game and higher MVs. That is why they have Partitions and Accubonds to offer. The problem is that some here are so frigging insecure that to admit even the most remote possibility that their choice is not the wisest would casue them irreparable damage to an already dubious self-esteem problem. jorge | |||
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Quote: The same reaction that some here would have if anyone was to post anything negative about weatherby rifles or leupold riflescopes? | |||
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Stubblejumper: You really ought to learn how to make VALID comparisons. Ever heard of the term "apples and oranges?" somebody else called you on your lack of grasp of that issue on a previous post. You should get the hint. Here's a hint: You can say that Leupolds or Weatherbys aren't as good in your opinion as whatever other product you like and that's fine,even though you CONSTANTLY make up stuff to butress your insecurities, but we're talking about APPLICATION and not quality. Don't act like a democrat and answer the question; Why doesn't NOSLER the manufacturer of the bullet recommend it for certain applications? jorge | |||
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Quote: Your reaction proves my point.It was exactly as I expected,I might add.In your mind it is okay for you to attack other peoples opinions,but heaven help them if they return the favor.Everyone here was content to discuss their personal experiences and opinions of ballistic tip bullets like mature adults until you launched the attack quoted below. Quote: And you have the nerve to talk about other peoples problems with insecurity and low self esteem.Perhaps you should start by dealing with your own. | |||
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Quote:Hey Bob, Welcome Aboard! I thought you had started a rather interesting thread and then it seemed to go all to pieces. Some of my hunting buddies and I used a good many 150gr 30cal B-Tips on Southern Deer when they first hit the market. They were pretty soft, but worked well at 308Win velocities. They still killed but provided lots of bloodshot meat. We quickly decided to move the 30-06 users to the 165gr B-Tips and some went right on to the 180gr B-Tips. Since then Nosler strengthened the jacket a few times and each time the B-Tips got a bit tougher. But, to directly answer your question, it depends on the shots you believe are OK to take. If you take "Gut Shots"(aka Raking) or shots at the "Wrong End", then the Partition will definitely serve you better than a B-Tip. If however you only take shots at the front 1/3 of the Deer, then the current design B-Tips will work for you. Only thing is that I would recomend using at least a 165gr B-Tip due to the Impact Velocity you will have available with your 300WSM. Since you happen to have a chance of blasting a Hog while you are there, you might even want to just go directly to the good old 180gr B-Tip. Hogs can be tough for Bullets to penetrate when covered in mud. Best of luck to you! | |||
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Reloader... i have always seen the BT BOOM on entry... right at or on the skin like ,,, might EVEN make it 2 inches deep... and the grenade... kinda like a rem 405 458 bullet at 2200+ fps... they EXPLODE... this isn't a "oh, the bullet failed once, so i'll never use it" it's... let's see, now, I've seen it fail on several deer, MANY hogs, rams, blackbucks, etc... and EVERY time there is either NO retained weight or the animal was small enough that the 8-10 inchs of explosive expansion killed it dead in it's tracks... But, to all that wanna say "oh, bt's are great", i have been the guy that recovers the ass shot hogs, and the shoulder shot exotic animal (buck or meat, don't matter) and I am no longer much involved in whitetail hunting,. I have been there, for the animal that the SHOOTER "missed" and I found blood trail... and the animal WAS going to die... in a day or 2... I've also seen bad shots with BTs... you know, the hog jumped up, ran with his/her nose DIRECTLY away from you, and the spine/back of the head shot turns into an ass shot... ya, sure, you gots the normal ballistic tip bullet "performance"... and then *I* have to take the shot that KILLS the now HORRIFICLY wounded hog. why was it wounded so bad jeffe? because a fella didn't understand what bullet he was using, and shot a hog in the ass... into the hip bone, and there was ALL OF 4 " of penetration... 708 rifle, 150gr, loaded at ~2700fps... i know, i chronoed the load for him THAT day. THis is a pretty mild load.... i just happen to have made the same shot with a hornady 139 load... and the poor little piggy died of organ and heart failure and the bullet exited her chest from the SAME shot why would I do that? As 3 of the 5 campfire buddies I was with thought it was "just" a one off bullet failure of the bts... as the bt had taken plenty of hogs when they hunted from the stands... The professional guide on the ranch and myself disagreed... I had learned the hard way. So, the next morning I took my wife's 708... poked a pig with it, about the same shot range and pig size... and had full porker penetration... So, I propose to ya'll that "love your bts".. that you think about the day that you have a BAD shot... you've wounded an animal and THIS shot must take him, NOW.... and then ask yourself, when you are looking at a raking or a texas heart shot... do you REALLY want to shoot a varmit bullet into big game? jeffe | |||
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Quote: Hey Jumper, you have left the realm of discourse and taken it to a WHOLE different world. WHy do YOU have a 7stw? Certainly not to load it down, as you said.. and the 7stw is what, 300 faster than a 7 rem mag? Based on my ExPERIENCE with 284 bores, I choose not to go with a 7stw, as my experience has been that I don't take shots over 150 WITH a rest, and generally I hunt on foot.. I have no need for a rifle that would be a great thing for a shooter to make 400 yard shots... I have destoryed too much meat with 7 rems and hot 280 AI's, as my shots tend to take place under 100 yards... now, have learned that our hunting styles are as different as a ground stalking hunter vs sitting in a stand, why don't you just read the first couple pages of the nosler book, where it helps you to make the choice on which bullets to use. No, Jumper... they didn't do it to "make more money".. that's too damn funny... as the new bullet DESIGN and the new machines required to RUN those bullets cost deeply... while the BT machines would be fully depreciated... no, Jumper,,, it's VERY much like why bullets became jacketed in the first place.... to make a better bullet. cheers jeffe | |||
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Nosler BT (green tip), CT-BST, 150 grain on Florida white tail loaded in 30-30 single shot...32 grain W748, WLR primer, R-P brass, COL (long throat) 68mm---at about 2250 and good expansion and pass through. Limited meat damage all lung shots.......results ?? Venison steak, mashed potatos, bisquits and gravy every time..The key is lower velocity on these bullets (in my humble opinion). Of course to each his own....Jorge ??? S3's or P-3s ???? | |||
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Hi Bob, it seems like there is a debate on whether or not to use BT bullets. I can tell you my past experience with them in a 30-06. I shot a deer in the neck with a 150gr BT he went down after a few minutes it got up tried to jab his antlers in a friend who then shot him in the shoulder with a 30-30. The deer then ran off and after the third shot, one in the back of the head, he was down and was pronounced dead by the time I got to him. Would the deer have died from being shot in the neck probably not I didn�t hit the spine. I can�t blame it on the bullet just my poor aim at a moving deer when all I could see was his head and neck. I shot one out of a tree stand through the heart at aprox 20ft it ran around in a big circle until it got hung up in the briers and couldn�t go any further. Upon dressing the deer out I found that I had cut the heart into and the bullet exited about the same size as it had entered even after breaking some ribs with no expansion. Was it bullet failure? I don�t believe so the deer died and my family had some fine deer steaks. I loaded some BT's for my friend Joe in 270 140gr. He shot a deer at 100yrds it dropped dead but he had no expansion. I was told by the Gun Smith years ago at that Nosler had changed the BT because they were too hard. I don't know if it was a fact or something he heard but with my experience I quit using them at the time. This year I am once again going to try 150gr BT out of my 300WM (more power) on deer they shoot reasonably good groups at 100yrds 7/8 inch. I will let you know the results. Good Luck on your Pig/Deer hunt. | |||
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Snowbound: P-3s???????NEVER! I'm "tailhook" all the way, I'm an S-3 Puke, but actually started in F-4s before being drafted to the "then new" S-3. Now they are getting ready to retire the Viking....and me along with it!  jorge | |||
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Quote: and we are in perfect agreement on that!! jeffe | |||
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well I will be using the 140 grain SST out of a 7mm-08 doing 28-2900 fps this fall, still paterning loads for the best charge,,,, will see how they do | |||
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A couple of post mention the lack of expansion from NBTs. That is kind of strange considering their design but, I heard an experienced deer hunter complaining of the same thing the other day. He said when he shot them from his 270 WBY Mag that the entrance and exits were very small and there was very little if any blood. I thought he was full of bull but, it seems some here have complained of the same problem. It seems that it would be almost impossible for the bullet not to open, I would only expect that from the older Barnes Xs and the Failsafes which, happens quite frequently when used on smaller game than the bullet was designed for. I have never had a NBT "Blow-up" or "Pencil" when used on deer sized game but, I did have one make very small entrance and exits on a dog once. Seems strange. All of the penciling reports I have ever heard of and witnessed myself came from the Tough bullets. I know  , The NBTs are tougher than we thought!  I guess there is exceptions to everthing. Good Luck! Reloader | |||
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Quote: Reloader, EVERY report of them entering "behind the ribs" and expanding into lungs, is a blownup NBT... there's nothing to EXPAND on, unless you count a rib bone as "worthy" of causing a bullet to expand. EVERY report of a NBT having large exit wound (say, anything larger than 2") is a bullet expanding too fast. then again, i consider my .358 winchester to be my smallest hunting rifle for the last 5 years or so. my experience with NBTs is "only" limited to 257 roberts 708 (several guns) 7 meg mag 308 3006 300 win and 358 win.. (several guns) fabulously accurate... don't like the performance on game. then again, I don't like MOST hornady bullets on same ether.. as they are rather soft, unless they are the newer designs designed for higher speeds. for example, the 225gr 375, the 350 rn .458, and the 400 gr 416s... fairly tough bullets (on game).. the 250gr .358 is SOFT and the 200 is designed for 35 rem speeds... my "goto" bullet, for what it's worth, is generally the sierra gamekings... fairly tough... as for penciling... (grin) if you start with a big enough bullet (like a 358) vs a 284, well,, you can get the drift or, as elmer keith says... a big bullets lets in a LOT of air jeffe | |||
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jeffe, We all have our own favorites and opinions, That's what makes it fun. Good Luck and God Bless! Reloader | |||
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Quote: So do you have a lot of personal experience with the 7mmstw in order to make that statement?Or are you simply making an assumption? Quote: To generate more sales and to make more money.Swift and hornady already market bonded bullets with synthetic points so nosler wants part of the market.The bonded core is a good idea but it does not mean that bullets without bonded cores or partitions can't perform properly.If ballistic tips actually performed as poorly on game as some people think,why do you suppose nosler still markets them as a hunting bullet? | |||
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captavid, That is what I thought myself but, from what I've heard from these few incidents, There was very little internal damage. Seems kind of fishy. Reloader | |||
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Quote: Sorry no fish story, there was no noticeable expansion of the 150gr BT. Like I said I am going to try them again this year with my 300WM. If I push them fast enough maybe they will expand | |||
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Quote: I don't think you will have a problem getting them to open w/ that Winnie Mag. Get ready to see em' Drop on the Spot! Good Luck! Reloader | |||
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These bullets seem to be as controversial as a 270 for an elk gun. Well, here goes again: for what it is worth, my brother and I have used NBT's since 1990 and have killed a couple hundred deer with this bullet. Shots ranged from a couple yards from the muzzle out to over 225. I've never had one fail, ever. Meaning, 'blow up' or anything like that. My very first rifle kill was using a 180 NBT from a 300 mag. I shot a 8 pt at 80 yards. I've also shot some small does at about 17 yards with the 300 mag and 150 NBT. Quite frankly, I never knew these bullets were 'risky' until a short few years ago. I would never have believed these bullets had ever 'failed' for anyone. Heck, my brother just put down a few more South Carolina deer last season, putting 130 Btips from his 270 through shoulder bones on good sized bucks. Good luck with your decision. | |||
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As I said before, I have shot game in Africa, Asia, New Zealand, Alaska, Europe, etc. and have never had a failure with BTs. The bag includes zebra, which are really tough, gemsbok, a dozen caribou, nearly 1/2 dozen dall sheep, etc. Emotive responses? Who used the surrogate "fuck" word anyway? | |||
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Quote: Why bother building up a load with B/Tips if you are not going to use them? Any other bullet will require a different load to be worked up. That makes B/tips expensive. | |||
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Stubblejumper, It's not safe to ASS-U-ME anything! Actualy, your statements on tires and airplaines are so broad that in that context you would be assuming that I would not use a bullet of any kind do to the problems associated with the early versions!Reloader, Maybe you are lucky, Maybe I was one of the unlucky ones. I did purchase these bullets a little heavy for caliber because I thought, from what I had heard, they would be perfect for deer. I did test these bullets on milk jugs of water to ease what little doubt I had, and I must say they held together well but so did the second bullet I put through the deers head. After penetrating both sides of the skull the exit wound was very slightly larger than the entrance. I have heard many glowing reports on the bt's and quite honestly, many that mirror my first and only experience with them. So, quite honestly, JustC, Stubblejumper, Reloader, Doc, and all the others who use ballistic tips, I truely hope you continue to have great success with them!! As for me, as far as BT's and BT threads go, well, I'm movin on! | |||
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Quote: Because, for the record, the SAME reason they redesigned the 180 part and why WOODLEIGH makes "protected" point bullets... because they found out that 180's are GENERALLY used in mags (and 30/06) and that the mags would blow up the bt's at anyrange, and to make them where they could be used by people that demanded benchrest accuracy from a hunting gun. 7stw with BT? even with barnes at ranges under 100 yards, that round makes explosive entrances/exits... bat, then again, nosler has come out with the accubond WHY? jeffe | |||
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Quote: That's the point. That these bullets are so VERY unpredictable. Won't use them. | |||
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Still waiting on the answer on why Nosler themselves don't recommend the BT for all hunting situations. There's a difference between divergent opinions all things being equal and outright prevarication of the facts to prove your point. Your insulting fellows like John Barnsness because they happen to disagree with your use of a particular product is another perfect case in point. Your dogmatic position on the BT being better or the equal to premiums in for example a 300 RUM is another. Mature? not me, but at least I recognize my shortcomings. Read your own posts SJ; all of them. To you if it isn't a 700 in 300 RUM topped with a Swaro A scope using BTs, it's garbage. Sure I like what I shoot and use, but I also recognize that there might be better products out there. Yes I do like Weatherbys, but FULLY recognize that there are other rifles out there that surpass them in many ways ( yours ain't one of them). Oh, I'm still waiting on an answer on Nosler not recommending BTs for all game. But that's ok, don't bother. jorge | |||
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Quote:Hey SJ, You hit the Bullseye! --- To say how many Deer I've seen killed with Nosler B-Tips would be pure speculation on my part. I used a good many on Deer myself and never had a problem with them. And I know of at least 3 Design Changes to the ones I used. Drug a good many Deer out of the Swamps/Woods for lots of folks who used B-Tips. And discussed "kills" at the Processor with many people that used B-Tips(and other Bullets) as they brought their Deer in. Never saw a Nosler B-Tip or Partition failure. And you can add the Barnes, Beanies, Hale, Hornady, Remington, Sierra, Speer, and Winchester bullets to that list. Have seen a lot of pitiful Bullet placement, the wrong Bullet weight and wrong Bullet design used for Deer. Some would still be found and some lost. | |||
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Quote: So are we to assume that you will not have radial tires or electronic ignition on your vehicles because there were problems with the earliest versions?Do you refuse to fly in airplanes because the early versions were very undependable? | |||
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Quote: HMMM, I've shot that same bullet at 3100-3200 fps and hit a pile of deer from 15 -50 yards and well beyond, some through both shoulders and lots through the ribs. All I can recall were small holes in and golf ball sized holes out. Guess I must have gotten lucky .Reloader | |||
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How about this..... Nosler Ballistic Tips, you either LOVE them or HATE them. There seems to be no in between. Yes, they can and will put down animals hard, but at the cost of perhaps losing a bunch of meat. I don't like them, but don't hate them either. I will not use them anymore on game. I WILL use them to build up a load with, as they are CHEAP and they shoot quite accurately. I shot a moose last year from around 150 yards, with my 375 Taylor and 260 grain NBT's at around 2775fps. Blew up the off-side shoulder, lost a bunch of meat, looked like shrapnel from a grenade had gone off in it. Put it down real fast though. I guess it depends also if you hunt for MEAT to feed you and your family, or you hunt for the Boone&Crocket points on it's head and brag about it to your friends/co-workers. | |||
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I Have had this happen using 30-06 150BTs. What happens, in my experience, is that the bullet completely demolishes inside the deer. The internal organs are mush. The only thing that exits is a small part of the bullet. my $.02, capt david | |||
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I would like to heard from other hunters about their experience using 150 gr. Ballistic tips on deer and wild hogs. Have a trip to southern Georiga planned in mid December 2004. Have used partations in the past. I will be using a Win model 70 Coyote..300 wsm.. Ranges will be under 100 yards due to cover/timber. | |||
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I love NBT's, but I keep MV below 3000 fps. Since you expect short range, go to 180's and you will do fine. I think you might be disappointed in the results using 150's. I used 165's on several deer with my 300WSM, and meat damage was more than I liked. 180's have done very well for me since. YMMV! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Re: nosler ballistic tips for deer hunting
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