Does one routinely crimp for the full power, heavy bullet loads in the .458?

This is mostly academic for me, since I don't own a .458. However, I've long been curious about the .423 OKH wildcat, a nearly straight wall .30-06 case firing the 400 gn .423 bullets; it's rather a scaled down .458. This headspaces on the case mouth, so a heavy crimp isn't possible. I wonder if bullet pull is enough to prevent bullet motion in the magazine, and the .458 is the closest analog I could think of.

Yes, since the .458 WM headspaces on the belt, there is no downside to crimping. I use the Lee factory crimp die, and have never had a bullet slip the crimp.

With a heavy recoiling rifle/cartridge combo, it is advisable to crimp the rounds. Battering in the magazine can force bullets to move.

While mine isn't a .423 it is a .411 in an 06 case. Second from left with a 300gr second from right with a 400gr.

I've tried with and without a crimp with my 400s. Bottom case in a 4 round stack never moved either way. My case has a .469" bearing surface neck to bullet. I've ended up doing a light crimp simply becasue I do a light bell to make seating bullets easier. Plue I "FEEL" I get more consistant ignition with a compressed load of RL15. Haven't spent enough time over the Chrono for enough data to say for sure. Normal hunting load for the 400 is around 2250 but can be pushed over 2300.


You need to remember the recoil of my 400PDK the 400Whelen and I'm sure the .423 is nothing compared to the 458Wmag.

I had trouble with the 458, even with some milder loads, due to the bullets seating back in the case from recoil, until I started using the lee factory crimper. That seems to have resolved the problem along with using a powder that results in some compression, which seems to hold the bullet in place along with the crimp. IMO, not crimping on that kind of recoil is just asking for trouble.

KB

yes, crimp

I find that the built in crimp of the Redding seater die gives a very good crimp.I can tell how good the crimp is when they are put through the rigours of dry fire practice.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I can tell how good the crimp is when they are put through the rigours of dry fire practice.

I'm assuming that is a spoof, perhaps because I don't know better, and I don't practice dry firing. Instead of leaving me wondering, tell me that you are joking or explain how dry firing tells you how good the crimp is.

KB

To crimp or not to crimp....that is the question. Wheter 'tis nobler...to suffer the slings and arrows...

I crimp heavy bullets with top end loads...just to be sure...BUT...I use a taper crimp, polish the sizer button down a couple thou to give a tighter grip on the button...THEN...test fire a couple of mags full leaving the lowest(last) round unfired.

If that round survives 4 or more rounds of recoil and battering in the mag and doesn't move in or out I feel the crimp is good enough...otherwise I polish the buttom a little more and try again.

A "roll" crimper can actually reduce the amount of grip if done wrong by pushing down and opening up the case mouth. It might hold the bullet but I've spun the bullets in many straight walled pistol and rifle cases by doing a roll crimp and getting a bit too heavy handed.

Most of the time I don't crimp lighter loads and bullets even in my leverguns...I just polish the sizer buttons then test for effectiveness.

You have to be careful with Lee Factory crimpers also but it is very easy to adjust them.

Test your loads to see, then decide...

I would crimp any hunting loads for DG in a 458 for certain, and also to see what effect the crimping has of the accuracy/bullet placement.

LUCK

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I can tell how good the crimp is when they are put through the rigours of dry fire practice.

I'm assuming that is a spoof, perhaps because I don't know better, and I don't practice dry firing. Instead of leaving me wondering, tell me that you are joking or explain how dry firing tells you how good the crimp is.

KB

When dryfiring with dummy rounds or rounds loaded exactly like hunting rounds except the powder and primer,the magazine is loaded and the rounds are cycled and ejected hundreds of times striking the ground or any other hard surface.Eventually the bullets,which are solids,will be pushed in the cases.Hornady cases and the Redding die makes for a crimp that can last a long time compared to others I've tried.

Yes, I found the Hornady cases to be much improved over the Winchester 458 brass. The Win cases are too soft initially and improve after fired about three times. The Hornadys work well the first time. Since I started with the Win brass, the lips were too soft to hold the bullet, even with a good crimp from the standard die, so I went to the Lee die. Since I have shifted to Hornady brass for the heavy loads, I'll have to reconsider the std crimp from the Redding dies. It's prettier anyway.

I set aside the Win brass and use it for light loads only now, so the crimp doesn't matter as much that way.


KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I had trouble with the 458, even with some milder loads, due to the bullets seating back in the case from recoil, until I started using the lee factory crimper. That seems to have resolved the problem along with using a powder that results in some compression, which seems to hold the bullet in place along with the crimp. IMO, not crimping on that kind of recoil is just asking for trouble.

KB

I crimp my .458 loads too...now mainly out of habit.

I started crimping them because I was using a bit too slow powder for the best results and was having to heavily compress loads to try to get them up to even factory velocities. The compressed loads, uncrimped, and carried in the magazine, would eventually find the bullets moving forward out of the bottom cases, instead of the more normal problem of them moving deeper into the case.

Now I just crimp them with all kinds of loads. Seems to work well and hasn't hurt anything, so why not? It's kind of like having a fire extinguisher around the house....may not need to use it, but its a nice precaution.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Yes, I found the Hornady cases to be much improved over the Winchester 458 brass. The Win cases are too soft initially and improve after fired about three times. The Hornadys work well the first time. Since I started with the Win brass, the lips were too soft to hold the bullet, even with a good crimp from the standard die, so I went to the Lee die. Since I have shifted to Hornady brass for the heavy loads, I'll have to reconsider the std crimp from the Redding dies. It's prettier anyway.

I set aside the Win brass and use it for light loads only now, so the crimp doesn't matter as much that way.


KB

I am not sure which brass is harder.Winchester and Hornady brass seem identicle.Norma is something else.I find new brass to hold a seated bullet much better than brass that was resized often.New brass is very tight all the way down just like the primer pockets are tight when new.I find new Hornady and Winchester brass very tight when new.I find Norma brass in 458 cal. to be too springy and thick and not able to tightly hold a seated bullet.The best crimp and hold I've had where with Hornady RN solids.I think the bullet may play a role too.I know that if I want 100 percent reliabilty I'll use my redding die,Hornady cases and bullets-the DGS solids hold tight too.Other set-ups make work too but I don't feel the need to keep on experimenting.

Here is the champ-one that never let go and might never will.[URL= ]458 lott[/URL][URL= ]b[/URL]

Some more tough contenders.[URL= ]DGS[/URL][URL= ]2[/URL][URL= ]the ultimate solid [/URL]

ramrod340, your experience is, of course, closest to the .423 OKH. Given all the comments in favor of crimping the .458, I still have to wonder if the .423 might be marginal without a crimp; it would depend on the rifle's weight, I suspect.

Of course, there's another way to crimp:



With the old British NE cartridges it appears they'd dimple the neck into the bullet. I suppose one might be able to modify a Lee Crimp die to do something similar to a .423 OKH.

Were I do try something like a .400+ on the -06 case, I'd go with the .400 Whelen, if only because of the range of bullets and loads. With the 400 gn Woodleighs, you have a credible elephant and buffalo gun (for the African Walter Mitty in all of us); with .41 Mag pistol bullets over a case full of Trail Boss you have a nice short range deer gun -- versatility itself.

Thanks for all the comments,

Karl

quote:

Were I do try something like a .400+ on the -06 case, I'd go with the .400 Whelen, if only because of the range of bullets and loads

Provided the 400Whelen was chambered correctly. The red lines inside my dase drawing are the Whelen. I simply have the shoulder forward and using the 2.65" brass in the cannelure on the 400 Hornady my OAL is 3.34"


Those 210gr pistol bullets do job on a milk jug of water as well.

That's a fine wildcat you have, Paul. It extends the .400 Whelen to the limits of a .30-06 length action. By going to the longer case, you get to crimp as well as use the full length of the action.

Where do you get your brass? I know Z-Hat has cylinder brass. Does any one else?

Karl

quote:

Where do you get your brass

Bought the first batch from z-hat. I have a 380PDK version as well. For it I used Howell basic from AHR. It is a touch over 2.65". Headstamp says basic the z-hat is remington 35Whelen headstamp. Since it worked so well for my 380 I order some this week to use in the 400. It is half the cost of the z-hat stuff. Basically same volume and holds up to heavy loads in my 380.

UPDATE: Received some Howell basic last night. Ran them in my 400 die and they work perfect for the 400PDK.