How about a list of small or large things that you do in order to save time or produce a better reload. Probably something that you haven't seen on the forums but learned yourself.

On another post Hot Core mentioned wrapping steel wool around a brush and using for the inside of the necks, hm1996 mentioned using an oversize nylon brush to clean the inside of the case. Hadn't occurred to me but I will use it.

Here's some things I do

1. A metal engraver (you know, that little cheap gizmo that makes that irritating sound and vibrates like hell) is useful around the bench. You can use it to mark places on dies where they hit the shell holder and keep your place. You can use it to place against a case to vibrate powder and can usually get another 1.5 grains in.

2. When trickle charging, if the scale beam is still down and hasn't started up yet, you can push the rod in sharply (rather than rotating) and it will drop a larger amount, then when it starts moving you rotate to drop a medium amount, then when you're down to one or two more grains, tap it lightly and it will drop a grain.

3. When using a Lee Collet Neck Die, I put a washer on top of the shell holder around the case and it leaves a portion of the neck the fire formed size so it should aid in centering the bullet in the leade. Seems to make a difference for me.


Small stuff, but the devil is in the details, and someone out there has discovered something that makes sense to do.


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

I have found that I get better accuracy from cases that have been trimmed. I believe that this and neck tension have a real effect on accuracy. I believe that seating depth may have the most profound effect on accuracy once you find a decent bullet.

I got a Frankfort Arsenal powder measure a few months ago. It is one of the best things I have done for myself. It is very consistent, is easy to empty when changing over, and will throw charges with ball powder within +or-.5gr. That is about as close as you can weigh a charge.

I have gotten old and arthritic and bought a Forester Press. I really appreciate the compound leverage and the easy change over of dies. It was expensive, but it really is a step up. Kudude

I don't go through the effort often, but my best brass is worked on my lathe. True up the inside and outside to concentric. Final finish touched up with crocus cloth very fine.

Pretty, and accurate. Time consuming though, and its usually virgin brass I bother with ( once its done manual trimming works well ), cause I want to get as many loading out of the brass as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
within +or-.5gr. That is about as close as you can weigh a charge.

Um, if .5gr is half a grain wt. I'll have to disagree. By using a check wt. to set my rcbs 505, on the weight I want, i'm thinking i get a lot better than that.
jl.

Hey Woods, I sure would have thought the thread would have been longer than this by now. Maybe it needs:

Measuring the distance from the Bolt Face to the point that the Bullet is just Kissing-the-Lands can be done "with more precision and repeatibility" using a regular old Cleaning Rod and a Flat Tip Jag than ANY aftermarket tool/gadget/fiasco.
---

Maybe that will get them cranked up.

Not really a reloading trick per se, but a roll of toilet paper on a holder (can be just a nail or dowel) is a lot easier for small stuff than tearing off a paper towel and pulling a piece from it. If you don't want to get teased, make a towel holder from a rod, make it long enough to hold a roll of towels and a roll of toilet paper.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

3. When using a Lee Collet Neck Die, I put a washer on top of the shell holder around the case and it leaves a portion of the neck the fire formed size so it should aid in centering the bullet in the leade. Seems to make a difference for me.



Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

Why didn't I think of that.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Measuring the distance from the Bolt Face to the point that the Bullet is just Kissing-the-Lands can be done "with more precision and repeatibility" using a regular old Cleaning Rod and a Flat Tip Jag than ANY aftermarket tool/gadget/fiasco.
---

Maybe that will get them cranked up.

Explain. I don't see how you could get an accurate measurement or mark on the rod at the crown.


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

JAL,
You are right. I find that my old Lyman scale is pretty accurate, but in adding small amounts or taking small amounts out, it will "lie." I figure that it is correct within 1/10th of a grain. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...
Explain. I don't see how you could get an accurate measurement or mark on the rod at the crown...

Once the Bolt is in place, you slide the Cleaning Rod / Jag down the Barrel until it makes contact with the Boltface. Then you take a piece of paper tape and wrap around the Cleaning Rod at the Muzzle. You get it as close as possible so it is square to the muzzle.

Remove the Cleaning Rod and Bolt from the rifle. Drop a Bullet in the Chamber nose first and place something behind it to hold it against the Lead. Even a Loaded cartridge will work for this. Slip the Cleaning Rod back in the Barrel until it touches the "Tip of the Bullet". Then take your 0.001" capable Calipers and measure from the Muzzle to the Leading Edge of the paper tape.

That distance is the Overall Cartridge Length(OCL) for that one specific Bullet. Then that exact same Bullet should be used to Set-Up the Seating Die.

And you finally convert from OCL to the ODL(Overall Die Length) and write the ODL on the outside of the Bullet Box. That way you can easily repeat that same exact Seating Depth, or any Off-the-Lands distance by simply adjusting the ODL.

I'm with Hot Core except I sometimes use a wooden dowel rod..

I also use a fired round from my rifle with the primer pocket drilled out and a aluminum arrow shaft pushed into it as far as it will go, then glassed..insert in champer and clean the gun through the arrow shaft, to save the throat of your rifle when cleaning...More gun barrels are ruined by cleaning than by shooting IMO....

I don't do much on reloading except shoot very accurate rifles that are not finicky about loads..most of that extra stuff is for bench resters and maybe even varmint shooters, but I shoot so many rounds varmint hunting, as many as 1000 a day on ocassion, that I don't have much time to do anything but trim and reload..

If you're using a single stage press, and it isn't a co-ax, I'd get a co-ax. No more screwing in and out dies, no more changing shellholders. It's been a huge a time saver, and it's a great press.

The other huge time saver is using a good powder measure and not weighing individual charges. I work up based on charger settings, and then weighing the max charge to confirm that I haven't exceeded anything. I used to spend alot of time diddling around with a scale, but no more.

Pure Genius Hotcore and Ray!

Why didn't I think of that. I'm still wrapping scotch tape around a bullets base, sticking it in a firrformed case, and coloring the front of the bullet w/ a black sharpie. I usually chamber it and then eject it to see the length. After about 8-ten tries I usually get a pretty good average OAL.

Woods, A Q-tip is a heck of a way to get alittle lube in the neck for sizing.

Reloader

Find the sweet spot, the distance from the lands to the ogive, and then crimp the bullet with the lee factory crimp die, with or without the cannulure. Finally, adjust the powder charge for load and pressure.

Hears something strange, Roger, I reload just about the other way around.
Then find that the sweet spot length won't fit in the mag., then find the length and Lee crimp
don't make much difference overall.
John L.

Here is some neat things to try:
http://home.spynet.com/~frfrog2/homemade.htm#
solutions

quote:

Originally posted by Blob1:
Here is some neat things to try:
http://home.spynet.com/~frfrog2/homemade.htm#
solutions

TYPO:
It's always a good idea to visit FriarFrog's site, but he's no spy: it's SPRYNET etcetc

Thought someone would have posted this too--or maybe it is worthless. However, I feel better and my ammo is nice and concentric when I use this technique. When seating the bullet, I only go part way, then withdraw the cartridge from the seating die, rotate the cartridge 1/4 turn or so, seat some more, withdraw & rotate, seat some more, etc. Normally it is about 3-4 strokes to full seating depth. My logic is that if something is amiss in alignment, the rotation will even it out.

Hot Core and Ray

I will try your dowel rod thing for measuring the COL, but it still seems like there would be a lot of inaccuracy in the measurements just like the Stoney Point.

For one thing, muzzle crowns are not flat, so getting that tape in exactly the right spot could mean your thousands and thousands of an inch off! Couldn't mark it with a marker, that might be tens of thousands off! How about using a single blade razor on a wooden dowel and placing it flat on the crown for a precise mark?

Then when you put the bullet in the throat you have to be careful to put it in with just the right amount of force cause I know from experience with the Stoney Point that you can push a bullet into the lands .03" or more just by applying more force.

Then when you bump the bullet with the rod, be real careful not to push too hard cause you can push it back without even trying hard.

Seems as inaccurate as the Stoney Point. There has to be a better way to measure exactly where that beginning of the lands is.

I'll try it anyway.

Anybody out there polish their bullets with flitz?

How about meplat uniforming?

dustoffer, I'll try that rotating, although I stopped chasing runout a while back (too frustrating).


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

Hello;
Not really profound or earth shattering, I throw the charge as close as possible with the measure and finish on the scale with the trickler. I also load as many rounds as I can at a sitting. Other than saving set up time, I don't have to find as much time in my busy schedule.
Griz

[QUOTE]Originally posted by woods:

that you can push a bullet into the lands .03" or more just by applying more force.

There has to be a better way to measure exactly where that beginning of the lands is.

QUOTE]

As you say, bullits can be pushed into the rifleing a bit, but unless your the 2nd best benchrest shot and want to be No.1, I'm not sure one needs an "exact" measurement, and it will change as you shoot some wear into the barrel anyway.
I think the idea is to get a repeatable measurement to start with, because your best accuracy will probably be a certain imprecise distance from your basic distance to the lands.

Some characters load long and let the bolt push the bullet into the lands and back into the case. Not good if you need to eject an unfired round though.
JL

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
... I'm not sure one needs an "exact" measurement, and it will change as you shoot some wear into the barrel anyway. ...

Agree. This is why you repeat the measurement process each time you open a new box of bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
...I think the idea is to get a repeatable measurement to start with, because your best accuracy will probably be a certain imprecise distance from your basic distance to the lands....

JAL, you are on the ball. That is 100% correct.

I normally recommend folks begin their Load Development with the Bullets Seated 0.010" Into-the-Lands. Since they will "Fine Tune" the Final Load by adjusting the Seating Depth, the initial measurement becomes less significant.

quote:

Originally posted by Woods:
... How about using a single blade razor on a wooden dowel and placing it flat on the crown for a precise mark?....

That will work fine, but you really need to repeat the process each time you open a "new" box of Bullets. And since the length of the individual Bullets(between the point on the Ogive that touches the Lead and the Tip) varies so much, it would be a low PerCentage chance that the one you grab from the box will realign with that initial cut. So you either have to use a new Dowel, cut the one you have off a bit and start over, or use the Tape like we do on the Cleaning Rod.

Due to this, the Cleaning Rod and good old Paper Tape works great, you will get the measurement you need to start with and you don't need to waste money on any additional tools to clutter up the place.

I've been through the fiasco of trying to use the Stoney Point and it just isn't for me. Anyone else that likes it has my best wishes.

For years I've been promising myself to build a periscope to read my balance beam. It's easier to operate a scale at table-top level but easier to read at eye level. I think a compact magnifier mirror at the bottom and a 1x mirror at the top should work.

I like my digital scale but I think a good balance will actually weigh to better than .1gr. (the ticks at the beam indicator tip are generally .1gr and one can certainly trickle several kernels of most powders between them) I think it makes a difference in those small cases.

One thing I do with my RCBS measure is to use the numerical gradations in concert with the flat on the stem to record settings. If the lock nut is halfway between the 3 and 4 and the flat is facing to the right it gets the notation of 3.5/3:00. (As in three o'clock) If the flat is facing down, 3.5/6:00, etc.

Helps zeroing later immensely. I've also posted above the measure the number of grains of each powder one stem revolution will change. A few years back I started keeping some thin washers in die boxes to step-size necks in calibers where I wanted to full-length size for a one rifle but just step-size the neck or bump the shoulder in another.

And just go ahead and break down and buy two cheap pairs of channel-lock pliers to keep on the bench. And magnetic stips are great on the wall.

And I've come full-circle with case lube on rifle brass. After years of spray lubes I'm back to the lube pad. (actually is not full circle because I started as a kid with the beeswax in a tin) Pistol brass still gets sprayed for the progressive, though.

How about this

When cleaning I use a brass brush and wrap an oversize patch (2 1/4" square 38 to 45 cal) around it. This holds the patch so you can rotate it arond the chamber and provides a tight fit in the bore. Also less attachments to have to screw on and off. All you have to buy are brushes.

Don't chase runout anymore or use a sizing die with an expander ball but before I quit I could greatly minimize runout by doing 2 things:

Put a rubber washer under the lock nut of the expander stem on top of the die, it frees up the expander to help center it when pulling back through the neck (hm 1996 reminded me of this on another post)

And after resizing, rotate in the case master and mark either the largest or smallest measurement on the case, put this back in the die and rotate. Keep rotating and checking run out until you find the spot that yields the least runout. It will be the same rotation on every case.

Or just go to Lee Neck Sizing Dies and Redding Body Dies and toss out the expander ball dies and lube pads.


A government that is big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take away everything you have

Woods, what Hotcore says about measuring OAL to land contact is very doable, just don't get too anal about the details. It WON'T be thousands off, probably will be as accurate as the Stoney Point or better if you're gentle with the process. It is for me anyway, and I've compared the two processes with several different rifles and calibers.

I'm a desciple of concentricity, a lover of the Lee lock rings with the rubber o-ring in them. I find best results in barely tightening them, letting them float a little as it were. I like to think I can only do better with bushing dies but am uncertain of that.

I also save a lot of time by letting my tumbler collect dust.

Here's a little thing that I started doing years ago due to the ogive changes even within the same box of bullets.
Take out your seating stem and put it into a drill press. Be careful when tightening the screwed area, or you'll mess up the threads and really be screwed (pun intended). Using a cone shaped Cratex wheel, bevel the inside edge of the seating stem. Check often with a bullet to make sure you don't remove too much metal. Then using emery paper, polish the bevel. You'll find that you now can seat further down the ogive, closer to the full diameter of the bullet and have fewer changes in actual seating depth vs overall length.

Hey Woods, Your thread is looking better all the time. Lots of good Tips above.

Hard to remember some of the things I do that are slighly different, cause I've just done them so long I really don't think much about doing them.

Getting ready to begin Loading for a new rifle, I like to keep one "Set-Up Bullet" in the Die Box to see how much the throat is moving. You simply pick any bullet and do a "Kiss-the-Lands" measurement of your choice, record that distance on a sheet of paper that you keep inside the Die Box, and retain that exact Bullet in the Die Box too.

Then as you Load for that rifle, you can occasionally take that "Set-Up Bullet" and repeat your measurement process to see how much the throat is moving.

It will show you "Why" it is necessary to redevelop a Load over time. If you were to load up say 500 cartridges, the distance from the Ogive to the Lead will get progressively longer over time. Of course, this will vary depending on the amount of Powder burned and if you choose to shoot with a Hot barrel.

Some rifles thought to be Shot Out, really only need the Load redeveloped.

I use a metal polish to clean the cases,inside the neck also.To mesure headspace I use layers of scotchtape.Vld chamfer reamer(22 degreees) instead of 45 degrees...

quote:

Originally posted by rejpelly:

To mesure headspace I use layers of scotchtape.

How's that work?

That brings up another thing that always bugs me - I can measure the same thing with my Frankford calipers (Stainless steel Made in China ) and get different measurements. Don't think it's accurate enough to reliably measure to .001". Is there a better one?


A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have

Each bit of tape on the back of a case takes up a certain amount of headspace. When you feel resistance on bolt closeing, you can then measure the thickness of tape. (rough and ready).

So, Vernier calipers in particular, need experence, feel, and a good eye. If your measuring something soft especially you need a constant jaw pressure. If measuring cases and stuff, memember the things are never exactly round and the case mouth probably not square.
I say this as a layman who can get any number of different measurements of anything.
Try working out an average.
And avoid parallax error. :-)
John.

I use the layers tape method instead of headspace gauge because I cannot get one for my two rifles.I prefer Partial Resizing"not working the shoulder",it is not P-FLR(backing up the shoulder(.001"-.003").I use 3 layers of tape(near .003" with a caliper),with two I get easy bolt closing,using 3 layers of tape I get "hard bolt closing,I am between .002"< .0025"<.003".Below .002"the rounds wont chamber corectly,,most of them,I hate using a puller.How accurate I cannot tell...

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Each bit of tape on the back of a case takes up a certain amount of headspace. When you feel resistance on bolt closeing, you can then measure the thickness of tape. (rough and ready).
John.

John / rejpelly

I'm new to this "headspace" thing and these are some dumb questions so I appreciate your patience.

Do you do start this process with a full length resized case?

At what point should you "feel" the resistance? By that I mean is it when you push the bolt forward or after you've pushed it forward and are now pushing the bolt down into the locked position?

Once you've determined how much headspace you have, how do you adjust your resizing die to eliminate the headspace?

Do you adjust it to eliminate ALL of the headspace?

When do you need to check for headspace? Obviously with new brass. What about brass that has been fired one or more times?

Thanks
Doug
(firstshot)
------------------------------
Make your first shot count!

Let me see if I got this right by trying to answer your questions, then Hot Core can come along and explain it all to us.

No, you don't start the process with a full length resized case which would already have headspace created when you full length resized. What they're talking about is applying the tape to the case head before starting to resize, and adjusting the die in small increments in until you feel the resistance wanted. Then you can lock the die and remove the tape. What I don't get is that if you lock the die at that point, after that each case you resize will be larger and have more resistance.

You should feel the resistance when the bolt handle is being pushed down and the lugs are engaging. Be sure and do it first with no case in the rifle as the amount of pressure needed to close a bolt varies from rifle to rifle.

With new unfired cases you will have lots of headspace because they size all the new brass to fit in anybody's chamber, therefore the distance on the case from the head to a point on the shoulder of the case will be smaller than the distance from your bolt head to the same point on the shoulder slope of your chamber.

You do want to adjust your die to have zero headspace which will be a slight crush fit. For dangerous game most hunters want to full length resize and have a certain amount of headspace and not have a crush fit.

The way I do it is to check fired cases to see how much resistance they have to being chambered and then decide whether I want to just neck size or move the shoulder back (PFLR). Most of the time you can fire a case 3 to 4 times before it gets hard to chamber. I then check the headspace measurement with a Stoney Point Head and Shoulder Gauge, mark it down, and adjust a Redding Body Die to just bump the shoulder back .001' to .002" until the case is easier to chamber. Once you have the Redding Body Die locked in you can usually use it again to do the same thing without adjustment. I check it just in case.

I use a Lee Collet Neck Size Die and a Redding Body Die in each caliber and use the Stoney Point to aid in bumping the shoulder back, although you can use the method of chambering the shell to test for when you have bumped the shoulder back far enough to facilitate chambering. Caution, the adjustment to the die between the point of where you still fell resistance chambering and where you have pushed the shoulder back to full length resizing is very minute and has to be approached carefully or you will overadjust.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

I have tried a bunch of methods to find COL.. The best I have found is this.. Take a case and run it through your die like you normaly would.. After that take a dremel w/ a cut off wheel and split the neck a little bit.. When your done with that you should be able to push a bullet in with your hands.. As long as you dont cut to far down it will still hold the bullet firm.. Push the bullet in a little bit with your fingers then chamber it.. Take it out and measure.. Pull the bullet back out and do it again.. Do this 2-3 times taking measurements every time.. Basically what you are doing is using the lands to seat your bullet it doesnt take any more force then just closing the bolt like normal.. This way you dont have to dilly dally around with tape and rods and making sure everything is just right to get a measurement.. Plus once you have the case cut you can do this with ANY bullet in seconds. Once you have the lenght adjust your seater die.. No Tape No Rods No speacial Stoney Point tools required!!

Brock

Hate to be a naysayer and will try it myself, but just a couple of questions.

How do you know that when you pull the case out that the lands are not holding on to the bullet and dragging it back out part way? I've heard stories about bullets seated into the lands and how you can't eject them because the bullet stays in the leade and powder goes everywhere.

How do you know how far you are pushing the bullet into the lands? I know when I use my Stoney Point Gauge that I can get different measurements by how hard I push the rod that pushes the bullet against the lands. Seems like that would vary and be uncontrollable.


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

No, you don't start the process with a full length resized case which would already have headspace created when you full length resized. What they're talking about is applying the tape to the case head before starting to resize, and adjusting the die in small increments in until you feel the resistance wanted. Then you can lock the die and remove the tape. What I don't get is that if you lock the die at that point, after that each case you resize will be larger and have more resistance.

Woods;I use a fireformed case,using the tape method I try to "stay "within the same HEADSPACE( fireformed) when using the full sizer.I ADJUST the sizer to get the case resizes ( no tape on it) to be able to chamber the case between >.002 and <.003,using PARTIAL SIZING there is a limit about headspace,when you begin to back up the shoulder ,one begins the P-FLR method.I have to use Partial sizing with a .30-378 WBY,I have no choice,THE ONLY FL DIE( Forster works).I cannot back up the shoulder,almost of the cases are crushed(area 1/2 below the shoulder).You adjust the FL sizer concerning a fireformed case...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by First Shot:

John / rejpelly

I'm new to this "headspace" thing and these are some dumb questions so I appreciate your patience.
QUOTE]

First Shot,
I know bugger all too. As far as i think, on a modern rifle you probably wouldn't have a problem.
ON an old Mil. clunker you may well have and the best way is to use a proper headspace gauge.
Any gunsmith should have one.
The tape business, i'm not sure why,when, or how. But it would give you an idea of the headspace of any case used, to the bolt face.

So unless you have reason to suspect excessive headspace, and you want to eliminate any you MAY have, preferrably start with any case that is a bit tight in your chamber.
Keep the FLs die up a few turns off the shell holder, lube case and size it. Try in rifle.
What ever happens, keep screwing down the die a little at a time.
With a bit of luck the case will soon get tighter, too tight to chamber even. Good.
Keep screwing the die down very slowly and size until it just fits and the bolt is firmish to lock up. Thats your perfect fit. For ease of use in hunting you can take things just a whisker more so the bolt is JUST easly closing, but no excess looseness of the case in your chamber.
Therefor no headspace problem for your setup.
John.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

How do you know that when you pull the case out that the lands are not holding on to the bullet and dragging it back out part way?

This is the reason you repeat the steps 2-3 times..

quote:

I've heard stories about bullets seated into the lands and how you can't eject them because the bullet stays in the leade and powder goes everywhere.

This can happen IF you split the neck to far.. There still needs to be enough tension on the neck to hold the bullet without it being sloppy.. If it does happen there wont be powder all over since your not doing this on a loaded round!!

quote:

How do you know how far you are pushing the bullet into the lands? I know when I use my Stoney Point Gauge that I can get different measurements by how hard I push the rod that pushes the bullet against the lands. Seems like that would vary and be uncontrollable.

Close the bolt nice and gently.. Just like any tool you are using you can get variations with it.. What you are doing is using the lands to push the bullet back in the case.. IF you have to much tension on the bullet you can and probabbly will stick the bullet...

quote:

How do you know that when you pull the case out that the lands are not holding on to the bullet and dragging it back out part way?

That's what Moly is really for.

One of the best little tricks I came up with is keeping the Brother-In-Law outta my reloading room.