I don't waste a lot of time making sure that the powder charge is "exactly" right. I set up the measure so it's right on, then just throw charges right from the measure accepting any variation in weights it gives. For hunting, it doesn't mean anything. Even for benchrest shooting, weight variations within .1 gr don't mean anything. I make sure my technique for operating the measure is good before I start throwing charges in cases though. I shot centerfire benchrest and none of the shooters weighed powder charges. Between relays, everybody used a good measure and threw charges directly.
I've been using Wilson type seaters recently so I don't have to worry about concentricity, which is important. If there is any runout with the Wilson type seaters, I just live with it. I'm too old to get all wrapped around the axle with little stuff. My results support what I'm doing too. Over the last month, using the system I mention above, I've been developing loads for a 22 Hornet, a 222 Rem, a 22 BR and a 22-250. Each rifle, using the bullets and powder the rifles like, got me less than 1/2" groops at 100 yards. I only shoot 3 shots for load testing. The 22-250 got 3 shots in 1/4", the 222 and 22 BR each got 3/8" groups and the Hornet wound up at just under 1/2". That's good enough for me and any Michigan Coyotes. I haven't played around with seating depth to see if I can improve groups yet. All groups were shot with the bullets .010 from the lands.
If anyone is interested in what the specific loads are that worked in my rifles, I can provide them.
One more thing. I use Federal match primers for all of my loads. That's from my benchrest shooting days.
Don

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Let me see if I got this right by trying to answer your questions, then Hot Core can come along and explain it all to us. ...

Fortunately JAL(John) has joined the Board and he is right on the nose. Just check his last post to First Shot and it covers what I would have said(with fewer words). And actually better, since he addressed the semi-auto military firearms as well.

Nice post John.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5 Bandit:
Take a case and run it through your die like you normaly would.. After that take a dremel w/ a cut off wheel and split the neck a little bit.. When your done with that you should be able to push a bullet in with your hands.. Brock

Better yet, take a case which was fired in your rifle and gently push into your sizing die until the neck appears to have a very slight crimp; try pushing a bullet into the neck and repeat as necessary to obtain correct tension. This has advantage of the case fire formed to your chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Woods: How do you know that when you pull the case out that the lands are not holding on to the bullet and dragging it back out part way?

"Paint" the bullet with a black magic marker before inserting in the case. If bullet is pulled out of case any when extracting the case, case neck will mark the bullet and you know the measurement is invalid.

As for setting sizing die, IMHO, best method is to use a cartridge headspace gauge to measure a fired case. This gives the exact dimensions of your chamber. Then slowly screw die in and size/measure a case to obtain the desired headspace. (Close only counts in handgrenades and horseshoes. )


Regards,
hm

JAL

Thanks for the explination. Think I've got it now. I'll be picking up a Stoney Point Head and Shoulder Gauge.

firstshot
--------------------------------
Make your first shot count!

quote:

Originally posted by hm1996:

Better yet, take a case which was fired in your rifle and gently push into your sizing die until the neck appears to have a very slight crimp; try pushing a bullet into the neck and repeat as necessary to obtain correct tension. This has advantage of the case fire formed to your chamber.

Been thinking about this and I think I will try using the Lee Collet Neck Die and apply just a little pressure to start sizing the neck and until the bullet has the right tension.

quote:

"Paint" the bullet with a black magic marker before inserting in the case. If bullet is pulled out of case any when extracting the case, case neck will mark the bullet and you know the measurement is invalid.

Good idea. Better than using a candle to blacken it.


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

Marks-a-Lot works better. Stoney Point is way far better, if you're not mechanically challenged as some folks are.

quote:

Marks-a-Lot works better. Stoney Point is way far better, if you're not mechanically challenged as some folks are.

Ummm...Magic Marker is a Texas Marks-a-Lot of any brand, and the home-made...er, uh..custom built throat gauge is just a Stoney point w/o the "handle".

I agree w/you, Bob, I have no problem getting repeatable results with the Stoney Point tool; use both the shoulder gauges and the COL gauges and they work fine.

Regards,
hm

How many .001" with a full turn of a die...

quote:

Originally posted by rejpelly:
How many .001" with a full turn of a die...

About .714" if standard 7/8 x 14 thread.

Regards,
hm

That's INCORRECT. No way will ONE full turn move almost 3/4". It takes 14 turns to move 1". Recheck the math. I'm too tired to do it now. It might have meant .0714", likely a typo.

It is .0714",is it ,quite a difference,thanks...

Tried the 2 different ways to find the lands. Started by sizing a neck just enough to get a firm grip on the bullet, chambering it and pushing the bullet in with the bolt. Marked the bullet with magic marker before starting.

Couple of problems, the bullet was held by the bolt ejector and too long to get out the ejection port, had to push it further in with a dowel just to get it out. Also, the lands were holding the bullet and pulling it out. The marker was scraped on the bullet shaft but the exact depth was inexact, probably because of the chamfer. Could have trimmed it square but didn't. Got frustrated because it was such a PITA.

Then got a wooden dowel and marked it at the muzzle when against the bolt face with a single edge razor for an exact mark. Used the same bullet and case as above and let the bolt seat the bullet, marked that. Measured and found that there was a .04" difference from my usual length as found by the Stoney Point. WTF!

Got an idea and used the Stoney Point to hold and push the bullet gently into the lands and made another mark on the dowel. Guess what. The measurement on the dowel was exactly what my previous Stoney Point measurements had been.

Preliminary conclusion - if you use the bolt to seat the bullet for the measurement you could be pushing the bullet into the lands as much as .04".

Hey Hot Core, finally found a use for the Stoney Point even you might agree with. Use it to hold the bullet gently against the lands. No better tool or way to do it that I can think of.

So, use the dowel method and utilize the Stoney Point to hold the bullet, or just use the Stoney Point cause it will come out the same.


Without guns we are subjects or victims, with guns we are citizens

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

So, use the dowel method and utilize the Stoney Point to hold the bullet, or just use the Stoney Point cause it will come out the same.
[/i]

So what's wrong with my pistol cleaning rod to hold the bullet in. I can back and forth the bullet slightly to get the feel I like.
John.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Hey Hot Core, finally found a use for the Stoney Point even you might agree with. Use it to hold the bullet gently against the lands. No better tool or way to do it that I can think of...

Hey Woods, Maybe that is how all the "Mechanical Experts" use those things to get accurate readings?!?!?!
---

Reminded me of a story. You probably know I'm just not a BoreSnake fan.

I go to the Range one day and am really enjoying myself since I was there all alone. No distractions and could go to the Targets without needing to wait on anyone.

It was a bit hot and I had a cooler of ice water and sodapops. Sitting back letting the barrels cool and up pulls a guy. He is toting stuff to the other end of the Firing Line and I offer to help him. So, we are toting his stuff and talking about his rifles when I happen to notice a Tool Box with something wrapped around it that looks similar to a BoreSnake.

He gets all his stuff set up and we go to the Targets. Come back and I take him a drink and he notices me staring at the Tool Box. So, I ask what he has in it and he said it was full of his Cleaning Stuff. Then I mentioned that rope around it sure looked similar to a BoreSnake. He said, well... yes it is. It holds the Box closed because the latch got broken and it is the BEST USE FOR A BORESNAKE I'VE FOUND YET!

To measure COL I use a modified version of 6.5 Bandits. I use a fire formed case. Squeeze the neck out of round to hold the bullet. Ink the bullet (black magic marker or equivalent). Put this bullet into the neck and chamber very gently and remove very gently. Measure your COL. If the bullet pulled out you will see evidence of it on the ink. If you forced the bullet into the lands you will see that too. Then I usually subtract .020†from that and use that as my COL start length. Then I measure my magazine length and find that it is .04†shorter than my COL anyway, so I subtract at least .010†from that and end-up with a COL .050†shorter than my max. COL. On most rifles. I don’t have any I can shoot .010 off the lands.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

So what's wrong with my pistol cleaning rod to hold the bullet in. I can back and forth the bullet slightly to get the feel I like.
John.

Nothing wrong with whatever works for you. It will get the job done. The bullet may be at a slight cant in the chamber, probably wouldn't make a difference. To extract the bullet you will have to push it out with the rod and retrieve it from your magazine. Not a big deal. Might be a little more awkward to hold in place, the Stoney Point has that plunger that you can lock in place.

If you don't have a Stoney Point then you might want to get one anyway cause the best use for them is with the Head and Shoulders attachments. Then again they are also useful for measuring to the ogive rather than the meplat of the bullet.

Yep, one of the most useful things I have!!

HC, I think bore snakes have their place in the bottom of a hunting pack to be used in case of emergency (tournequet, garrot, etc.)


Without guns we are subjects or victims, with guns we are citizens

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...HC, I think bore snakes have their place in the bottom of a hunting pack to be used in case of emergency (tournequet, garrot, etc.)

Hey Woods, Those are outstanding "Tricks of the Trade" for them.

quote:

Couple of problems, the bullet was held by the bolt ejector and too long to get out the ejection port, had to push it further in with a dowel just to get it out. Also, the lands were holding the bullet and pulling it out. The marker was scraped on the bullet shaft but the exact depth was inexact, probably because of the chamfer. Could have trimmed it square but didn't. Got frustrated because it was such a PITA.

I suspect you have a bit too much neck tension on your case. You want it to barely hold the bullet so that you can slip it in w/gentle finger pressure. If too much tension, it takes too much pressure to seat and the bullet will stick in rifling, then bullet will be pulled out when case is extracted and will be too long for ejection port.

The mark left on the bullet is not meant to be used to obtain a measurement, only to alert you to the fact the bullet has been pulled out by rifling so that you can re-do the procedure.

Have not experienced this problem, so can only speculate what is happening in your rifle.

quote:

That's INCORRECT. No way will ONE full turn move almost 3/4". It takes 14 turns to move 1". Recheck the math. I'm too tired to do it now. It might have meant .0714", likely a typo.

Ooops. My bad...... you are absolutely correct, it is .0714, missed the decimal,

Regards,
hm

quote:

Preliminary conclusion - if you use the bolt to seat the bullet for the measurement you could be pushing the bullet into the lands as much as .04".

That is what I have found as well.

What I like to do is find the measurement by many of the suggestions mentioned above. Them I size a case, seat the bullet, then color the bullet w/ a sharpie, chamber, then check it out to see if it made contact. If it contacted the lands, I seat it just a hair more and repeat the drill until no marks appear on the bullet.

Reloader

That's INCORRECT. No way will ONE full turn move almost 3/4". It takes 14 turns to move 1". Recheck the math. I'm too tired to do it now. It might have meant .0714", likely a typo.

It was a typo,thanks to correct it.thanks...

Brought this old thread back to life because I discovered something yesterday (many of you may already know about this).

I'd seated some Primers and was putting Powder in a series of Cases. Reached for the Bullet I'd intended to use and it FINALLY dawned on me that I'd not measured the Kiss-the-Lands Distance. For this particular Bullet.

Which meant getting out the rifle and doing the Cleaning Rod Trick mentioned on page 1 of this thread. But, I do not like to leave Cases with Powder setting in them open. So, what to do?

Finally spotted the answer in a sack of Ear Plugs. Squashed about half the Ear Plug and stuck it into the Case Neck. The Plug expanded and sealed the Powder inside the Case - until I get ready to Seat the Bullets.

If you have done this before, take credit for it, cause I may have read about it on this Board and forgot I read it.

I use a slightly different method of finding land engagement length for a particular bullet.
I seat a bullet way long in a fully tensioned neck and partially chamber the cartridge and put a light rubber band from the bolt handle to the scope ring or open sight base or wherever is convenient. Using a rubber band with just enough tension to hold the bullet against the lands, then the cleaning rod - dowel method of mark, re-seat against the bolt face for re-mark and measure has given me the simplest OAL measuring method. At least, if not more so, consistently accurate than a stoney point guage.
Then I seat that particular trial bullet into that case as a dummy round and chamber it to recheck with the mark on the rod - dowel for clearance to land. This is then my dummy round to set seating stem for when ever I load that brand of bullet. Permanent marker to write Length in the Sinclair Hex tool on case and it is stored away for future.

Von Gruff.

I didn't read weighing cases, bullets and flash hole deburring.

Nothing associated with reloading high quality bullets is really time saving.

Good post to bring back to life HC. Tricks of the trade topic, well some may do this already but I like to keep Q tips on the bench. I get the 500 pack, and use them alot. I try to keep my dies clean on the inside. I use a Lee Universal deprimer to knock out the spent primer. Next I tumble the brass, and before I use the resizer or seating die I clean it out with a Q tip moistened with Hopps' solvent. I keep a "untainted" jar just for this purpose.

I've read numerous post about trickling the charge up to the desired weight but I've never read anyone saying that you should tap your knuckles on the bench as you trickle so the poise won't hang up and give you a false reading or suddenly jump.
That's about as scientific as my "rock and a rusty nail" style of reloading permits.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Finlander:
I didn't read weighing cases, bullets and flash hole deburring.

Nothing associated with reloading high quality bullets is really time saving.

You can save a lot of time by not doing those three things and still come away with excellent ammo.

Simple observation: HC's aversion to "thingies" is well known but I didn't know he was so mechanically challenged that he couldn't operate a Bore Snake.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Simple observation: HC's aversion to "thingies" is well known but I didn't know he was so mechanically challenged that he couldn't operate a Bore Snake.

Got a buddy in Cajun country that called me at the beginning of Deer Season 8-12 years ago. He was a bit concerned about his Sub-MOA rifle was now showing promise as a Shotgun???

We went through a good many back and forth conversations over 4-5 days. We were both about out of ideas. "One of us"(may of been him ) said, "Lets start back at the Beginning!"

Me, "OK, so you are going to Clean the Barrel." Cajun, "Yes, that is what I'll do."

Me, (idle curiosity) "What are you going to use?" Cajun, "A BoreSnake."

Me, "Really? Do they really work?" Cajun, "They are great and right quick."

Later, the Cajun, "Nothing came out, so it must be clean" Me (to myself Auh - O! ), "Take a Patch on a Jag or a Brush and push it up the Barrel toward the Muzzle, stop about 1.5"-2" short of the Muzzle, shaine a BRIGHT Light in and tell me what you see?" Cajun on the return call after "finding" the Cleaning Rod, "I think we found the problem!!! Looks like a solid Copper Bore with Lands and Grooves in it!!!!!! "

Took him right at a week of scrubbing when he got home from work and a few Bore Brushes to get all the Copper out. Finally got it clean and it was once again Sub-MOA.
------

I support anyone I shoot against (to see who buys the BBQ Supper) to use a Bore Snake.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Finlander:
I didn't read weighing cases, bullets and flash hole deburring.

Nothing associated with reloading high quality bullets is really time saving.

Good points. I also Square the Primer Pockets and "Polish" the Case Mouthwith 0000SteelWool wrapped around an old worn-out 22cal Bore Brush.

After Champfering and Deburring, I allow the 0000Steel Wool to go both inside and outside the Case Neck, by putting a wad about the size of a small egg on the Brush. Then it will wrap itself over the Case Neck and Polish it inside and out. Give it a couple of twists and all the minute Burrs are gone.

For all you people that are useing the "stick the bullet in the case and stick it in the chamber", take a box of bullets and meauser the lenght of the bullets. Gee! they are not all the same lenght. when you put the bullet into the chamber it contacts the rifleing at point on the ojive(don't think that is how it is spelled)of the bullet but you are useing the tip of the bullet(that can have as much as 0.050" in difference in samebox) to get a overall lenght. If you uses the OAL to set the seater every case will have adifferent lenght as the seater dose not use the tip to seat the bullets but a point between the tip and the full dia. of the bullet. If you used the shortes bullet in box to set the OAL the lonest bullets will be 0.050" too long if the difference in the box is 0.050" PS: for those of us that uses the stonypoint system and know the rest are on the outside lookn in, Sinclair in now selling headspace compaitor(bump gage inserts) that don't just use a dia.(.300-.350-.400) but are for shoulder angles wich give a better reading. They also have their own bullet commpar inserts that are stainless and use a taper and short straight section to measure bullets bearing surface and bullet comparitors in 9.3 and 404Jeff.

quote:

Originally posted by Fat_Albert:
For all you people that are useing the "stick the bullet in the case and stick it in the chamber", take a box of bullets and meauser the lenght of the bullets. Gee! they are not all the same lenght. when you put the bullet into the chamber it contacts the rifleing at point on the ojive(don't think that is how it is spelled)of the bullet but you are useing the tip of the bullet(that can have as much as 0.050" in difference in samebox) to get a overall lenght. If you uses the OAL to set the seater every case will have adifferent lenght as the seater dose not use the tip to seat the bullets but a point between the tip and the full dia. of the bullet. If you used the shortes bullet in box to set the OAL the lonest bullets will be 0.050" too long if the difference in the box is 0.050"

That is exactly the reason that I use the method I described above. By seating one bullet to exact OAL with the dowel from the tip, then measuring using the Sinclair Hex, I am not using the tip of the bullet to set the die, so subsequent bullets are all at the ogive length.

Von Gruff.

Couple of more:

Lay a square of fine sandpaper flat on the bench and run the case head over it slowly with even pressure. It will take any burrs from the engraving off and make the case head lay flat on the bolt face. Don't overdo it.

Clean the inside of the case neck with Scotchbrite wrapped around the end of a small forceps






5 years. Had to go back and see if I still agreed with myself!