The 1904 test are still valid. Right they most likely were never valid. Hacther most likley did the best with what he had but they were not good tests.

The best I have seen on stopping power are the Marshall/Sanow's books.

Fackler is a schill for the FBI to cover up the poor tactics and poor shooting in Mami in 86. Blaming it on poor bullet preformance. Fackler gave the FBI the data they wanted.

Now days for self defense aganist people a modern JHP/LHP at a decent vel That gives good exspantion and 7 to 14 inchs of penatration gets the job done. Caliber doesn't seem to matter that much.

The 125 gr 357 mag is king of the hill with the best 45 and 40 cailber pushing it. The the best 9mm's coming up a close 2nd.

With non expanding bullets they are all about the same.

There is no such critter that well always give you 100% one shot one stops. I tell all my students thats why we have repeaters. Good shot placement and shoot as long as it is safe and the threat is still there.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
tnekkcc

what 158 gr bullet are you useing what is the over all lenght of your 158 gr 380 and 9mm loads dosen't making them fit in the mag cut down on useable pwwder space.

1) 380: 1903 Browning bushed to .380, I use 8.5 gr Power Pistol 1.090" OAL . I did not have to throat the barrel. I use 158 gr XTP bullets.
That is a little longer than will fit in a normal 380 mag, because the original cartridge 100 years ago was a Browning 9mm.

2) 9x19mm: Kel-Tec P11 I use 11 gr Power Pistol and 158 gr XTP or LSWC. I throated the barrel so the bullets will fit. 1.169" OAL. I have a large number of other 9x19 pistols, and the Kel-Tec is typical in most ways, except it is small enough to carry. It shares magazines with the S&W 659, which is a huge, clunky, 39 ounce pistol. For self defense, carrying a shotgun would not be much heavier

3) 9x23mm: Star Super B I rechambered from 9x19 to 9x23mm and 158 gr XTP and LSWC are seated at 1.3" to fit in the magazine. These magazines were for 9mm Largo, but refitted for 9x19, and then I refitted a few to 9x23mm. I also reamed out the recoil spring cowling to make room for larger recoil spring assemblies.

4) 9x23mm: Tokarev Chinese 9x19mm barrel, I rechamber to 9x23mm. The 9x23mm reamer does not have enough throat. I open the throat to fit the 158 gr XTP or LSWC. The XTP measure .357", the LSWC measure .358". I use 16 gr Power Pistol 1.36" OAL.
These magazines were for 7.62x25mm Tokarev, and so are very long.

5) Impossible recoil: I should note that the max load for 357 mag is 8 gr Power Pistol with 158 gr, so the above loads have atomic recoil. There is so much recoil that they are probably not practical for almost anyone as defense against personnel. They might be considered good for defense against bear, but the recoil is so high, it would be nearly impossible to practice.

Your Atomic recoil should tell you a bit about your excessive pressure levels you are working with.

Hell I shoot full house 44 mags with 22 grs of H110 and a 315 gr hard cast and the recoil doesn't Hit atomic level.

I see you are loading a bit longer the normal spec.

Just for the info value I took 158 a rem sp and loaded it in 380 and 9mm cases so they were at max length to work through the mags. I couldn't fit bullet into the 380 case to normal length PPK mag with out bulgeing the case then the most powder I could fit in it was 4grs. So you say your doubleing the powder cap by double going 1.090.

The 9mm case could be loaded with a length of 1.164 and the most powder I could get in was 8 grs I surpose I could have got to 1.169 there was a hair bit more space before the nose would have touched the from inside of the mag. But then if they touch they well not feed properly. By the way it was a 659 mag I was using.

A 158 gr swc well be a bit longer the the Rem sp I guess when I get back to my place I'll measure the differants that would cut the powder cap abit more. To get a good working length

I have 3 star supers in 9mm largo I load them to 1250 with a 115 gr jhp I wouldn't even think about loading them as hot as you are.

A max load in a 357 is running well over 30000 psi. So are telling me you are adding 3 more grs of powder in a smaller case with lot heavier bullet the it was designed for know that deep seated bullets greatly increase the amount of pressure in pistol cartridges.

Then you say you are doubleing that amount of powder in a 9x23 case. in a pistol design that even isn't close to be safe at those operating pressures.

The only conclusion I can come to is that you are playing with a very dangerous combo trying to get to vels that these pistols and cartridges where never ment to operate at.

By the way I shot several Kel-Tec P11's I found them all be be unreliable jamed every few rounds I wouldn't carry one. One we sent back to the factory still wouldn't work properly when we got it back. They are a great idea in a small package but I gun that works is where it is for me.

Good luck to you in keeping your fingers and guns intact

In order to get that much powder to fit, I do double compression. My favorite way is with a pin gauge in a collet bullet puller die. That will not work with H110, the bulk modulus is too high.

A pro gun lobbyist, who is very good at arguing, has been greeting me for the 10 years since I started overloading 9mm, "Show me your fingers!". But I am told that when I am not around, he says, "~Don't give me any of that crap I can't carry 9mm +P+, if [tnekkcc] can shoot atomic loads and never get hurt, then +P+ are plenty safe~"

I like I said good luck in keeping your guns and finger in tact.

I've carried and shot many thousands of rounds of +p and +P+ 9mms before we went to 40 cal glocks at work.

What you are doing goes way beyond that. And I wouldn't recomend it to anybody.

Just because you have gotten away with for this long does not mean it is a good idea or a smart one.

I have been injured racing motorcycles, mountain climbing, roofing, tree topping, bar tending, operating a grinder, operating a table saw, hot wiring an electric motor, playing football, pole vaulting, boxing, etc.

I have had allot of medical attention.

But in 10 years of experimenting with taking 9mm to the real limit to back off a real safety margin to make the most practical most high performance 9mm carry, I have never been injured.

And yet I have had hundreds of hand loaders warn me of the risk I am taking.
It has been perceived risk vs calculated risk, like in gun control or nuke power.

What does it all mean?
It is not human nature to say, "I would be afraid to do that and I don't know much about it, so I will shut up and defer to my betters."
It IS human nature to say, "I wouldn't do that, and there ain't no body smarter and more knowledgeable than me, so anyone that does that is crazy and dangerous."

158 gr XTP is the best 9mm defense bullet, per my experiments.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
I have been injured racing motorcycles, mountain climbing, roofing, tree topping, bar tending, operating a grinder, operating a table saw, hot wiring an electric motor, playing football, pole vaulting, boxing, etc.

I have had allot of medical attention.

But in 10 years of experimenting with taking 9mm to the real limit to back off a real safety margin to make the most practical most high performance 9mm carry, I have never been injured.

And yet I have had hundreds of hand loaders warn me of the risk I am taking.
It has been perceived risk vs calculated risk, like in gun control or nuke power.

What does it all mean?
It is not human nature to say, "I would be afraid to do that and I don't know much about it, so I will shut up and defer to my betters."
It IS human nature to say, "I wouldn't do that, and there ain't no body smarter and more knowledgeable than me, so anyone that does that is crazy and dangerous."

158 gr XTP is the best 9mm defense bullet, per my experiments.

tnekkcc,

Good for you.

I have read your posts on other forums and conclude that you are a careful, deliberate handloader who works up loads that are safe with your guns using your equipment and your techniques. Good for you.

However, it is also human nature to say, "If he (tnekkcc) can do that, I can do that." Unfortunately, it is also human nature to cut corners and skip preparation if someone else has already paved the way. Someone who follows your example without your preparation puts themselves at risk. I would not want to have published an example that someone (foolishly) followed to their detriment.

I realize that any posting describing your cautions and preparations would be too long to fit a forum posting, so, perhaps a cautionary note after any load data would be in order. Something like

"This load was worked up carefully and exhaustively tested in the few firearms in which it will be fired. They are not to be considered safe in any other gun (even of the same model). Duplicating this load in any other gun is DANGEROUS. Primer choice, brass, crimp, chamber dimensions all vary and cause pressure to vary."

Good shooting, and thanks for your input. I look forward to all your postings.

Larry (Lost Sheep)