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Need idea for a good 9MM defense bullet I can reload. Understand a hollow point might be most popular? smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | ||
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#1). WHAT GUN??? #2). 9mm has plenty of velocity (vs the .45 ACP family) obtained by using a much lighter bullet. Geneva prohibited anything but full metal jacket so for military use ... #3). For civilians anything goes. In this small caliber, you give up bullet weight with "hollow" anything. A soft point should expand o.k. at these velocities. So hit the charts and see what is available and what feeds well in your gun... Magazine might need "tuned." Many, many choices. LUCK. | |||
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Thanks iiranger, I'll check the charts. smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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THere are many good JHP available for the 9mm. The Speer 124gr GoldDot, Rem. 124gr GoldenSaber & Rem. 124grJHP are my fav. for handloads. FWIW, many guys will NOT use handloads for self def./home def. ammo for possuble legal reasons. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Standard bullets and loads will not be a legal problem ! Best for 9mm is 115-124 grain hollow point. | |||
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There has been a lot of controversy on useing reloads for self defence. The general idea is the courts will take the stand you are loading super powered, man killing, sub-nucular ammo with the sole intent of killing people. Whether or not this is true, you might want to rethink useing your own ammo and go with commercial. There are a lot of proven 9mm loads out on the market. Then again, there is something to be said about a heavy Gold-Dot or Hydra Shock over a stiff charge of Power Pistol to make ya feel more at ease...  ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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Thanks folks, appreciate your input. I reload for the 9MM now so just thought I would select a bullet and use it for practice with my CCW. smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Not trying to be a smart ass here. It just come natural. The best 9mm load for defence is a .45 ______________________ Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie? | |||
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Any of the modern 115 to 124 gr JHPs pushed at +P or +P+ vels well work very well. If one has to stay with standard vel loads 115 gr modern 115 gr silver tips work will. Federal HY shocks< Corbon or the 115 gr Federal +p all well get the job done. I have yet to find a 45 user who is willing to take the first hit out of a 9mm. Not that a 45 isn't a good round but its not a magic round. | |||
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A lot of people like the Hornady xtp bullet for that use. I had a chance to participate in an informal test of the xtp bullet (among others) at a local pistol club. I was using the xtp at the time in a lot of loads. I have since changed my carry cartridges' bullet and am now using Sierra power jackets. If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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amamnn, what were your findings with the Sierra? smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Ask you local PD or SO what they issue and see if it works in your pistol. If your choice of ammo is ever questioned you can say you you figured what the good guys use was good enough for you. Shoot factory for defense. Shoot factory duplication loads for practice (unless you're independantly weathy; then you can shoot factory for practice too). | |||
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In 9mm I carry 158 gr XTPs pushed by Power Pistol in primed RP brass. I throat the chamber and re size the loaded ammo, to it falls in and out of the chamber. | |||
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tnekkcc and what vel are you getting out of the 158s and why would you want to carry them for selfdefense. You well get no expansion and low vel. I did the same just for the fun of it. I found it a worseless load. | |||
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Thanks for all your great input...appreciate it! Ordered Sierra 155 gr. JHP and will start from there. There are cheaper bullets to be had but I have been using Sierra bullets for more years than I care to remember and am very fond of their performance. smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Is that a typo, do you mean 125grJHC? I have tried them in my 357sig & they fragment badly above 1200fps, but shoul dbe ok @ 9mm vel. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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JESUS YES.....should be 115. Hey, I'm old so my fingers do funny stuff sometimes  The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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. I have not chrono'd the 158 gr 11 gr Power Pistol 9mm, but it kicks hard. Allot harder than the 10 gr Power Pistol 124 gr at 1336 fps from a Kel-Tec P11 9mm Allot harder than 158 gr 8.5 gr Power Pistol at 1150-1183 fps from a 1903 Browning .380. What does it all mean? The 158 gr 9mm kicks so hard, it may not be practical. | |||
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Tnekkcc PERSONALLY I FIND THE LOADS YOU ARE PROMOTING TO BE DANGEROUS AND UNDOABLE IN ANY SAFE MANNER. Why am I shouting because I hope no one else on this board would even think about trying what your doing. Good luck in not blowing your guns and hands up. | |||
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tnekkcc. was nice to see you mention the P-11 because that's what I'm going to use as my mouse gun. I'm going to try nad move a 115 grain bullet ~1150fps, I'm reading that should cause enough upset to get the job done. I wanted to see what P-Dog was hollering about so I checked my old Hodgton manual and the fastest speed for a 147 grain bullet was less than 1,000fps. Where did you get the recipe for the 158? smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I work up my own loads. I have thousands of hours into 9mm hot load experiments many bullets, powders, and guns. I want the most powerful gun in the lightest package. I do incremental work ups and examine the brass after every shot. What stops my work up is if I see: 1) pierced primer 2) primer falling out 3) case bulge [guppie belly] The things to look out for: 1) Throating -until the bullet fits 2) resizing loaded ammo - until the cartridge fits 3) case support - most 9mm pistols have a feed ramp that intrudes .190" into the chamber. Most 9mm brass has a web .160" thick. This leave .030" of thin unsupported case wall. That is what a P11 has. If a case is dropped into the barrel and the outline of the feed ramp is traced onto the case with a needle, the case support can then be read with dial calipers. 4) CZ52s have thin chambers and poor metal [RC25], and so are weaker than the brass, despite what the load books say. The CZ52 9mm barrels can have excellent metal [RC47], but are still thin. What does it all mean? You may not get as far as me in your work up if: 1)Your throat is too tight 2) You ammo is too fat 3) Someone has polished your feed ramp too much | |||
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Very interesting tnekkcc. I have not tried to do any wildcatting. There are many that do. I seem to be happy with the stats that are published. Of course if all were like me there would be many fine calibers never discovered. Thanks for your informative post. smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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tnekkcc More power to you but by the time you have reached any of the warning signs You have far exceeded the safe working limits of the guns. Even with fully supported chambers the guns are not designed to operate at extreme high pressures. Blown primers loose pockets ect are most likely well over 60000 psi In rlfes one doesn't blow primers out until well over 70000 psi. Standard 9mm working loads are around 35000psi +P+s in the 40000psi So can you tell me what pressures your loads are operating at. I sure you have strain gages and the proper balistic programs to back up your work. Having reloaded for well over 40 years with hundreds of thousands of rounds loaded. Iam just wondering what data backs up your Overloads | |||
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If you are asking if I load 9mm beyond the SAAMI registered pressures the answer is yes. If you are trying to draw me out on stain gauges, instrument amplifier design, sample and hold design, traceability to NIST error calculations, error in stress strain model of tapered barrel, error in misalignment of bonded strain gauge, etc, I am not game for it. It has been rehashed into flames enough. | |||
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Maybe I can get you guy's to agree on what powder/charge I should use. I have a 115 grain bullet that I'm supposed to drive @ +P or +P+ speeds and don't have a clue what those 'P' things mean. I have 231, WST, Bullseye, and Unique. Just want to drive these 115 Sierra JHP fast enough to get the advantage from the bullet design. Ideas? smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I must have missed those threads.   | |||
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A slower powder is needed for safely getting to +P+. You can do quite well w/ Unique, but leave the WST & W231 for std. vel. loads. Power Pistol, AA#7, Longshot & BlueDot are good choices for pushing the vel. limits w/ a 115gr bullet. FWIW, the Sierra will not stand up well to high impact vel. Even the 125grJHC fragment badly above 1200fps. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Can I assume that 1200fps is +P or +P+? Can you tell me where the +P velocity lives? Better question would be is where I need to be with a Unique load to attain bullet performance? smoker1 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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A 125 in the 1200 range should be near to top pressure levels. 115 reach around 1300 fps. +P means a bit above normal pressure +P+ are pressures above +P Some manufacures don't reccomend +P and above ammo other Do. | |||
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If I can get 1180 fps with 158 gr in a .380, you SHOULD be able to get 1200 fps with 125 gr in 9mm. | |||
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Called Sierra and talked with a tech. He said 6.3 unique would be OK. When I dispense 6.3 it's damn near a compression load....is this right? Damn near fills the case. smoker39 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I've SAFELY gone to 6gr under a 124grJHP for 1250fps in my BHP. I'ld think you'll get close to 1300fps w/ 6.3-6.5gr. The +p & +p+ designation is about pressure & not vel. You can easily get to +p+ pressure & never get to 1250fps using some of the uberfast powders like BE. FWIW, 115gr @ 1250fps is not necessarily a +p vel. The WW 115grSTHP ammo makes 1275fps in my BHP. Yes, the load will be slightly compressed, it's fine. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Thanks fred. Not used to seeing a case that full. I'm probably going to chicken out and use 6.0 and call it good. The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Back in 2001 my notes say that 7.4 gr Unique is all that will fit with a 124 gr flat point FMJ in 1.169". That would be the old dirty Unique. | |||
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I would not get terribbly worked up about a specific powder, a specific load, or a specific bullet. I would find whatever 115-125gr jhp functioned best in my gun. Then because we are talking about shooting in defense of someone's life or to prevent great bodily injury, I would fire two rounds in two the assailant's chest and if the threat was not stopped, I would fire 1 round to the head and then evaluate. I would practice the above, alot. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Practice, practice, practice. This has been interesting as I never was concerned about bullet performance except for it's ability to knock down steels or make holes close together in paper. I'll have to find some subject material . Thanks folks, smoker39The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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tnekkcc what 158 gr bullet are you useing what is the over all lenght of your 158 gr 380 and 9mm loads dosen't making them fit in the mag cut down on useable pwwder space. | |||
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Safety first. To quote a poster from another forum (Smitty of the North on http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/) " Remember, half the people you know are below average." To which I add: Caveat Emptor. Watch out what you believe on the internet. Ordinary citizens are not responsible for what they post online. You are responsible for what you act on. Also, thanks to P Dog Shooter. The people who brew the powders, manufacture the factory loads, have laboratories and test facilities at their disposal. They publish books against which everything you get off the web should be checked. People who push the SAAMI limits may be very careful and safe, but they are using their specific gun, their press, their dies, their technique. If their gun's chamber is a little different than yours, your pressures may vary. If your crimping is different, your pressures may vary. If your brass thickness is different or the cartridge volume is different, your pressures may vary. I advise that you triple check everything you get from private parties. Use two different loading manuals, the powder manufacturer if you like, and then work up your load looking for pressure signs. And, as was stated earlier, if you have overpressure signs, that's what it means. You are OVER PRESSURE. Load that into a case that maybe has a weak spot and you may be buying a new gun to go with your brand new glass eye. And don't just believe what I am telling you. Cross check what I say as well. Lost Sheep (Larry) | |||
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In search of the "One Shot Stop"? Police officer Evan Marshall compiled official reports of shootings from law enforcement agencies looking for what percentage of immediate cessation of hostilities resulted from each different round. This ultimately led to Mashall and Sanow's book. "Stopping Power". Much of the resultant data is available online. Google "One Shot Stop", or "Stopping Power" or just go to http://www.stoppingpower.net/. But don't stop there. Widen your search and get familiar with names like Hatcher, Fackler, Marshall, Taylor and don't neglect the U.S. Army's Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904. A lot has been learned since then, but the 1904 tests are still valid. Bullet construction has gotten better and investigation of terminal ballistics has improved, too. But take anything theoretical with a grain of salt, | |||
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Lost Sheep, being a little older than most of you guy's has resulted in a decreased level of desire to push the envelope. Like I said before if all were like me some wonderful calibers would never have been found. In this particular case, even after talking with the tech at Sierra, I checked three of my different manuals to be sure. I just never saw so much powder in a pistol case before. I fired this little gun using 6.0 Unique W/115 gr. Sierra and let me tell you it's a handful. I could have gone to 6.4 but ain't gonna do it! Your words of caution are good as we have all seen pictures of blown up firearms. smoker39 The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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