Hey guys, A friend of mine has a Ruger Mark II in 257 Roberts that doesn't shoot to his satisfaction so I told him I'd play around w/ it some and see if I can help him. :sf:Shot it last week for first time... TWO shots at 100 yards (third one OFF the paper) formed a nice tight group of 3 1/2" w/ factory Hornday 117 gr spitzer. Admittedly, the trigger is HORRIBLE (very long and hard) , but I honestly think it shoots too bad to blame it all on the trigger. He'd like to buy a replacement trigger for it, but I suggested waiting until seeing if it'll shoot better, first. Tonight I'm going to check the scope mounts (factory Ruger) and rings, then shoot again. I'll clean the barrel also, but doubt he's shot enough for it to be very dirty. Next will change out the scope, although it's a 3-9X Leupold. Will look at the bedding and action screws, as well. Barrel channel is very TIGHT, so will probably end up floating the barrel. Do you have any other suggestions, especially anything particulary useful for this gun? Thanks in advance for your help. Gary T.

I own two Ruger 77's in .338 magnum, and another Mark II in 300 magnum. None of these rifles will shoot accurately with Hornady bullets of any weight. All shoot well with other brand bullets. I know....weird....but I thought I put it out there for consideration.

Gary T,
I had one in a 7mmRM that hated 175grn'rs but didn't do much better with 150's in Winchesters. The "extended range" 160grn Remingtons did a bit better but still not "good." That is the reason I got into reloading!!
You might try different food for the beast!
I would also suggest posting this question on the "Gunsmithing" Forum and see what they have to say.

Smedley

Final Finish Lapping Kit(Easy to do), Wipe Out Cleaner(Extremely Easy), and Timney Trigger<--(Easy install).

Thats what I suggest.

Try different bullet weights. I have the same rifle and caliber, and it is a bit picky on loads. There are instructions on the web for stoning the Ruger trigger, I saved the file to my hard drive and don't remember where I got it. Do a google search, it will probably turn up. Tighten the front action screw pretty tight, the rear moderatley so, and the middle one not at all. The middle screw should be just tight enough to keep from falling out, no more. I have 3 of the rugers, and they are all different in the bedding technique it took to get the best accuracy from them. One has the forend pressure pad glassed, the other two have freefloated barrels. One of the freefloated ones has a pad built up under the chamber, the other doesn't. All three will shoot selected handloads under an inch consistantly. Two of them much under an inch. One other thing, check the crown with a decent light and some magnification, many factory rifles these days could use the crown polished.
+1 on the Wipe-Out, new barrels have a tendency to be copper mines.

The rifle and scope are just no good. Pack them up and send them to me, I will dispose of them properly.

(I have yet to find a Ruger 77 that will not shoot...)

quote:

Your Accurizing Tips for the Ruger Mark II

The best advice I could give would be to have him take his Ruger to the local gun shop and trade it for a 700 or a Savage then his accuracy problem will be fixed

quote:

(I have yet to find a Ruger 77 that will not shoot...)

Steve, I find that strange. I've only dealt w/ a few and they were definitey not tack drivers by any means.

Reloader

quote:

There's nothing like the Heart Pounding Adrenaline Rush that comes w/ a close encounter of a Trophy Game Animal.

Evidently you have never met the right woman...

quote:

Evidently you have never met the right woman...

Steve, I guess some just are more dedicated and have more of a Passion for the hobby.

If you refering to having some humb dingers in the sack. Well, let's just say I've been around a few that would blow your mind but, There aint one walking on this earth that would pull me out of the field w/ a 150 class buck in my sites, not even Shania Twain.

Reloader

quote:

(I have yet to find a Ruger 77 that will not shoot...)

Steve, I guess you do have a point, All of the 77s I've seen did infact "shoot" when you pulled the trigger . Now where it went is a whole nother' ball game.

I don't doubt that their are piles of Rugers out there lurking that will shoot great but, You are sure taking a gamble buying one and believing it's going to be a tack driver. Matter of fact, I've never heard of anyone praising them for accuracy until I read you web site a few years ago. Glad you found a few good ones in that neck of the woods.

Have a Good One

Reloader

I'd have to second the barrel lapping suggestion. My Rugers shoot better when they are somewhat dirty leading me to believe that the bore is somewhat "edgy". I would try it myself but mine are hunting guns and they are hunting accurate as they are.

Does anyone think copper build up can cause his huge groups? I doubt it, but maybe your experience is different.

I think you are on the right track with scope mounts, also check that action screws are tight.

Maybe try to float the barrel, too.

If you have time for many trips to the range with it, try "fixing" one variable at a time. I usually try 3 or 4 things at once, and I don't know which helped, or which canceled out any other improvements.

I have a ruger in 22-250 that my dad bought me, or else it would have been long gone, I was a safe queen for the last couple years, got it out a couple weeks ago, cranked the hell out of the action screws before going to the range. got 2 sub moa groups in a row with factory stuff, its a sporter so I only do 3 shot groups with it. made a handload for it, first group .6, same combo just one grain more powder .271" and .581". even better this is a top velocity load, so I am getting max performance out of the load. gun has the pressure point sanded down a bit and trigger worked. I am now tickled pink with the rifle!!! Rugers are a rifle that really have all the cool features, if you get one that shoots, you have yourself one hell of a rifle.

so make sure the action screws are tight, then I would make sure the bore is clean, other than that I have heard people saying the 257 bob can be a little tempermental

After checking that the action screws are tight, the very first thing to do is to examine the crown with a loupe and a light. Assuming it is ok the next shooting should be the lightest possible game bullets then some at midweight. A thorough cleaning should have been done. Even 6 pound triggers do not make for 3 1/2" groups if the gun is otherwise ok.

I have a Ruger 7 Mag (LH, SS, MK II) and wound up trying over a dozen different bullets, half a dozen powders and a lot of gunsmithing to make it shoot accurately.

I had the trigger redone to 3#, glass and pillar bedded, new crown cut, etc. It now shoots one bullet accurately, the 140 grain Barnes TSX with H4831.

The next step is action blueprinting and a new barrel.

quote:

Your Accurizing Tips for the Ruger Mark II

sell it oir replace barrel...but I would sell it

Hey guys,
Thanks for all the great recs. Thought I'd give you a less than encouraging update after doing some work on it and shooting some more today. The rings/base are all tight. (Even managed to shear a cheap torx wrench.) I shot 3 groups at 50 yards, each group after some sort of work having been done.

First, I cleaned it well. Still dirty after 20 min soak w/ foam cleaner, so then gave it an overnight soak w/ foam. Still not clean enough so then used Shooter's Choice/Kroil mix, dry patches, bronze brush, Sweet's (brief use), and JB's. Ended up coming out pretty clean.
Group #1, four shots, over all size 2.9 inches. Shots 1, 3 were 0.2" apart while shots 2, 4 were 0.8" apart.

Adjusted action screws as in ole_270's post (several guys at the Gunsmithing forum made similar suggestion) and shot again.
Group #2, three shot group only 0.79"!

Thought I was really onto something at this point. Decided to clean the bore further w/ some JB's Bore Bright. Made 50 passes.
Group #3, four shots, was another DISASTER... Shots 1,3 only 0.8" apart and shots 2, 4 1.2" apart, but overall group size 3.6"!

Totally frustrated, I then shot a developmental load w/ my 6X50R Bellm 14" Contender--3 shots into 0.8" at 100 yards.


The large groups have a lot of horizontal variation, but not much vertical. Strange, but noticed when cleaning the barrel that the cleaning rod seems to "jump" about the half-way point on both fowarwad and backwards passes. I'm beginning to worry there's something bad wrong. (Remember, these are only 50 yard groups.) What I plan to do next: Shoot some rounds I loaded for his grandsons' 257 Roberts w/ 90 gr Sierras BTHP/Blue Dot; swap out the scope on it w/ a Leupold 4X of mine that I know to be ok; possibly make up a load w/ 85 or 100 gr NBT (and either H4895 or RL15); e-mail Ruger to see how much more work I can do (including floating the barrel) without voiding the warranty ; e-mail Ruger to see if there is a factory approved 'smith locally who could inspect it. I know my friend would rather not just sell the gun. He has 2 grandsons hunting w/ 257 Roberts and he would like to have one of his own when he hunts w/ them.

What do you think?

Gary T.

Well, one can do a lot of things online with Ruger, including, but not limited to, order products , request an instruction manual , and request a catalog , but one can NOT contact the service dept! Guess I'll have to call/fax them when I get a chance... Gary T.

I would put some more rounds down the tube, sometimes guns take a few rounds to settle in after a cleaning, I usually feel best about shooting at least 2 fouling shots before I really expect much accuracy wise, thats with all my guns. It might also explain why your second group was so good. I do have a 50 cal muzzleloader that shoots the same sparkling clean or fouled but thats about it. I would give it 10 shots, at least after a cleaning, to see if it settles in any more.

Once again, I make my original offer...

"The rifle and scope are just no good. Pack them up and send them to me, I will dispose of them properly."

Steve, If it were in my power, I might do that, but since it's not my gun, I'll just have to pass.
Gary T.

My M77 Mk II ultralight also wouldn't shoot when I first got it, so I free floated the barrel and gas bledded it, still wouldn't shoot. I noticed a "clink" sound eminating from the scope, so replaced the scope, whalla, 3 shot 1 1/2" groups with mil surp ammo, and preferred factory fodder and handloads are sub moa for 3 shots.

When a rifle will goup one of two rounds together and then throw others, it is usually a bedding problem. My crappy scope through shots all over the place. I'd say give her a free float. I'd also say if you're going to handload for it, try partial neck sizing the brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary T:
Steve, If it were in my power, I might do that, but since it's not my gun, I'll just have to pass.
Gary T.

Well, since you can't send that clunker to me, I guess I will tell you what I do to every Ruger 77 I have or have had.

First things first...

Take the action out of the stock. Thouroughly clean the action and barrel.

Next hog-out the barrel channel from the front of the receiver all the way down so that oyu have around 1/4" of space between wood and metal.

Next smooth the Ruger trigger...or buy a Timney for it.

Re-assemble the action to the stock, and snug it down in this order...forward screw, rear screw, middle screw. (Make sure the floorplate release works okay.)

Next make sure the Ruger rings are mounted properly. And then that the scope is mounted properly.

Then you put the gun away!

Start working up loads for that .257 Roberts, and I suggets you start with:

Remington brass
Remington 9-1/2 primers
Sierra 90 grain HPBT bullets
H-4895 From 32.4 grains to 43.0 grains (in 0.6 grain steps)


Now for seating depth of the bullet and OAL...

Load three dummy cartridges to the max length that they will fit in the magazine and feed.

Then VERY carefully place one in the chamber and close the bolt.

DO NOT pull the chambered dummy out using the bolt. Lift the bolt and slide a cleaning rod down the barrel from the muzzle (don't forget to use a guide) and GENTLY apply pressure until the bolt and cartridge slide out.

Now set your seating die to seat that bullet 0.010" shorter.

Re-seat the other two dummies, and fill the magazine, and operate the bolt. All three should leave the magazine, enter the chamber, and be extracted without any hang-ups.

THAT is your starting seating depth and OAL for that rifle.

After you have all the loads finished, make sure you load around 50 with 38.0 grains of powder. These are the ones you will use for zeroing your scope initially, and also for fouling the barrel between your test firings.

AND, do your test firing using 5 rounds at 100 yards. Not 3, not 10, but 5.

Allow 2 minutes between each of the 5 rounds, and 15 minutes between 5-round groups. During that 15 minutes, run a brass brush down the bore a couple of times, followed by a couple of clean patches. Then fire a fouling shot.

Go have a Pepsi...or get out another gun you are working-up loads for.

(I always bring 3 or 4 to the range.)

After you are done with those 20 loads, re-load the 10 best groups and do it again (IF they are under 1.0" at 100 yards...IF they are not, then select a different powder and start all over.)

My second choice of powder would be H-414.

Now, I will assume that your initial case prep included deburring the flash holes, full-length resizing all cases, trimming all cases to the length of the shortest one, and then chamfering the inside and outside case mouths.

After that, only neck size the cases (1/2 to 2/3) and keep the suckers away from your case trimmer and any other little goodies you have laying on the reloading bench.

When you find a load that meets your grouping requirements, then you can start seating the bullet deeper in 0.010" steps. If the group gets smaller...great...if not...go back to the original.

Now, if that doesn't work for you, tell your buddy I'll still take that butchered Ruger off his hands...

Gary,

My Ruger RSM in .375 had similar groups. Well, a little better than yours. I tried 3 factory loads and got average 5 shot group sizes of around 2.5" best to 4.5". I also had the odd and even shots form two distinct groups, which it sounds like yours do, too.

Because of this, I swapped scopes, but no change.

I took the action out, cleaned it, and tightened the screws as indicated above. I tried 4 powders with Speer 270gr boattails. The rifle really like W 760. I get 3/4" 5 shot groups regularly. I get similar good groups with 760 powder and other 300gr bullets (Barnes solids). Note that I still get odd/even groups; they're just very close togther.

I suspect I have a bedding problem, but I didn't want to monkey with the stock and void the warranty (Ruger says this voids the warranty) or send it back and have them change out the wood (it's beautiful). So I'm glad I was able to find a powder the rifle likes.

So I suggest you try 4 or 5 powders with a forgiving boattail or spitzer bullet. If that doesn't work, either send it to Ruger or free float the barrel if you don't mind voiding the warranty.

Hope this helps,
Steve

quote:

The rifle really like W 760. I get 3/4" 5 shot groups regularly. I get similar good groups with 760 powder and other 300gr bullets (Barnes solids). Note that I still get odd/even groups; they're just very close togther.

I had the same experience, WW760 is the most accurate powder in my Ruger .338's. Not the best velocities, but the best accuracy.

Reloader

It would take a hell of a lot better than a 150 whitetail to turn me away from Shania. 150 whitetails aren't that uncommon and I can still hunt them when I'm 80, not quite as likely with the other.

I have an older Model 77 in a .270 that has been a struggle to get to shoot reasonably well. It has a nice Leopold on it and after messing with powders and bullets I came up with H4831, W-W cases, and Nosler 130g BT's. On a good day it will go to 1 1/2" but normal groups are around the 2 - 2 1/2" range. I've done most of the procedures mentioned above and wonder if this rifle might have been made when Ruger was having trouble with their barrel quality. It has shot a lot of deer and elk and is currently owned by my son but I would be interested in any experiences on the older 77's and further ideas on shrinking these groups

Bed the action and about 1 1/2 inch of the chamber area. Float the barrel. Touch up the crown. Try some Federal Premium ammo. If that doesn't help, make a lamp out of it.

My (good shooting) Mk II VT washed out its .22-250 bbl. in 1300 shots. I then bedded the stock and rebarreled with a Lothar Walther .308 Win bbl. and it instantly became one of the most accurate rifles in my collection. Here are pics of the bedding, finished rifle and 5-shot grouping at 100 m :

Ricciardelli,

Thankyou for the excellent how to. The bullet seating depth technique should be very helpful.

#1 thing on most Rugers is float the barrel. The factory uses one hell of a dose of barrel up load. Sand it out and float it about 1/32 total about .015 per side. Glass in the front action screw and under the chamber this along with a $10. triger job gets 99% of all guns shooting great!

I have two older M77's with pre-lawyer triggers. Both stocks were treated diffently to get them to shoot consitantly. Both triggers were polished and adjusted.
My M77 7mmag was purchased used, and almost made a return trip to the dealer because I couldn't get it to group under 2.5" @100yds. I tried to improve the groups by epoxy tip bedding. Big mistake!!! I had to scrape that epoxy out to the original wood tip bed, and free float the remainder of the barrel. Steve is right on with the torquing sequence. I also used a coat of spar varnish to seal the stock.
Anyway, that 7mag now shoots 1" with remington 160 gr corelokt ultras and I look forward to handloading for it this summer.
In my opinion, regarding older M77's anyway, these Rugers can be made into great hunting rifles, without spending a lot of dough. They just need a little patience.

Hey Guys, thanks for all the good suggestions. Steve, thanks for the load development details; always good to pick up some good tips. Thanks also for the powder recs; I'd forgotten about trying H414.

Time for an update...
After 2 days of rain, I finally got a chance to shoot some more Sat PM. Didn't make anymore changes,except ammo. My buddy also had a box of Hornady factory ammo, non-"Light Magnum," w/ 117 gr bullets. He had given me multiple boxes at one time so that I didn't realize that the earlier factory ammo I had shot was all "Light Magnum." These regular factory loads shot much better than the "Light Magnum." The regular loads shot a 3 shot group of 1.3" at 50 yards and 3.6" at 10 yards (w/ shots #2-4 1.7"). Still no tack-driver, but much better.

I also shot the handloads I'd developed for his grandson's hunting. This uses the 90 gr. Sierra BTHP/22.0 gr Blue Dot/Hornady brass (has had the primer pocket uniformed and the flash hole deburred)/Rem 9 1/2 primers. This load put 3 shots into only 0.62" at 50 yards and 4 shots into 2.6" at 100 yards (3 of shots into 2.6"). I'm encouraged that at least w/ these loads I can shoot at 100 yards, now!

Hope to shoot some more Wed PM after lapping the rings. Will change scope and shoot again if still not satisfied. Will work up a load w/ H4895 (possibly H414 as well, if needed) and Nosler 100 gr BT. My buddy says to go ahead and float the barrel if necessary. Unfortunately, Ruger has not responded yet to my two faxes. I'd really like to know if floating the barrel still voids the warranty. May call them also Wed PM.

Gary T.

Hey guys,
Another update. Snugged up the original scope real tight, lapped the rings, and blasted away:
50 yards-Factory 117 gr (non-"light magnum") 2.2" (w/ 2 shots 0.64")
50 yards-Handload (22 gr Blue Dot/90 gr Sierra BTHP) 0.67" (w/ 2 shots in nearly one hole)
100 yards-Same 90 Sierra handload 4.3" (w/2 shots 1.5" apart).
100 yards-Handload (35 gr H4895/100 gr NBT) 1.4" (w/ 2 shots 0.5")
100 yards-Handload (36 gr H4895/100 gr NBT) 3.0" (w/ 2 shots 0.6")
Looks like I'm getting nowhere.... I suspect I should go ahead and float the barrel +/- bed the action, but just for my curiosity, will first make a thin plastic washer for the angled action screw (as suggested on "Gunsmithing Forum") and swap out the scope. The barrel channel will allow a dollar bill to pass starting about 2 1/3" in front of the chamber to about 2 1/3" behind the tip of the forend.

Any specific suggestions for bedding the action? I've only bedded one action before (Model 70), but it turned out well. Andre, from your picture, am I correct that you bedded only the area just behind the angled action screw and the area at the rear action screw?

Thanks,
Gary T.

The pic doesn't show the stock insides clearly but the bedding goes from the recoil lug to the tang, covering all wood / metal contacts.

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
The pic doesn't show the stock insides clearly but the bedding goes from the recoil lug to the tang, covering all wood / metal contacts.

Andre,

I've been following this thread anxiously as my Ruger is performing similarly to the one Gary T is messing with...but I have a synth stock. Nice job on the beding--how did you keep the screw hole clear in the lug and stock while placing the action in the wet bedding compound? I've done a few Rems and CZs but the front action screw is not in the recoil lug, of course.

I didn't do the job myself but I understand thet all holes are either filled with plasticine or taped over, according to need.

Hey guys,
Received a letter this weekend from Ruger that basically said to send it back to them for them to inspect. Therefore, I'll not be doing any stock floating/action bedding. Will shoot it Friday after changing scopes, albeit just for my curiosity.

I still hope to slug the barrel, although again, primarily for my curiosity at this point.

Looks like this little experiment went nowhere fast...
Gary T.

You could always do what I did.

Put a #1 contour Hart bbl on it, square up and true the action. glass bed.

Put a Rifle Basix trigger on it...much better than a Timney.

My 77 will shoot as well if not better than my 8 Remingtons.

Mr. Ricciardelli, I have had good luck using your method on the standard weight Rugers. Thanks! Have you accurized one of the Ultra Light rifles using the same techniques? I have a .257 Roberts RL Mk II and keep having the same accuracy problems as Gary despite floating the barrel, tightening the screws properly, etc. It does shoot Winchester Factory Loads and Blue Dot loads fairly well but I've only checked them at 50 yds. Have tried many powders and bullets but not 4895. Mainly I was wondering about your experience with the Lightweight Rugers. Thanks, Merganser