I've been reloading for many years now and up to this point all I've ever done is full length size. However now that brass prices are getting high I've been considering neck sizing only to help extend the life of the brass. I only have one gun for each round so chambering shouldn't be a problem but my question is do I need to turn my necks if I'm neck sizing only and will annealing accomplish the same goal of extending brass life?

Full length sizing can indeed shorten case life. Several things effect that case life when the are Full length resized, ful or partial resize, fit between chamber size and FL die, pressure of load, quality of brass, and type of action. An indicator that case life will be short is having to trim every 2-3 sizings so case neck is not longer than chamber neck. Several things you can do to extend case are;

Use RCBS X-die, if available for the cartridge. This full length die prevents case stretching and you will get maximum case life.

Neck size the cases. This also will maximize case life especially if pressure levels are not maximum. This is probably the best method. Cases must be dedicated to one rifle and it must be a single shot or bolt action. Lighter loads may be necksized only in lever guns but full power loads will need full length sizing.

Anneal the case necks. When to anneal varies. If one case neck splits of the necks start "chattering " when pulled over the expander ball it is time to anneal.

Shoot lighter loads with less pressure for practice can also greatly extend case life.

BTW; when you mentioned "turning the necks" I assumed you ment trimming the cases in the context of your post. Turning necks uniforms the neck thickness and does nothing for case life. Trimming is necessary when full length sizing.

Larry Gibson

CJ, I have only neck sized for one cartridge and that is my 264Win Mag and that was when they were fired in a custom rifle I no longer have. When I full length sized the brass after firing I would set the shoulder back a great amount so I bought a neck size only die and it helped immensely. Most of the rifle cartridges don't seem to need neck size only as they don't seem to move the shoulder hardly at all when fired. The only failures I have encountered with these cases were neck splits and using different dies will not cure this. To help keep necks from cracking I should anneal the cases but don't seem too motivated to do so, maybe if I had something that was tedious to make brass for I would add this procedure to my loading process.

Fact: Cases will eventually fail. Even the old thick straight walled low pressure "Everlasting" cases do not last forever.

Case failures generally fall in three categories:

1. Case head separation

2. Primer pocket enlargement

3. Cracked necks and cracks developing in the body of the cartridge

Case head separation is caused by high pressures that cause the brass to move forward causing thinning of the brass at the web of the case. Moderate loads and proper headspacing reduce (but do not completely eliminate) this effect. (Cobrajet, your strategy of neck sizing only will help with this.)

Primer pocket enlargement/stretching is also exagerated by high pressures. Once again, moderate loads will reduce (but do not completely eliminate) this effect.

Cracked necks are caused by work hardening of the neck and crimping/belling (in pistol and rifle cartridges that require these operations).

Some work hardening of the neck is unavoidable. Face it, the neck MUST be brought back to the point that it can hold the bullet with the proper tension. Precision fitting sizing buttons or mandrell type sizing dies reduce the work hardening effect on the neck of the case (but do not entirely eliminate it).

On cases that require crimping ...... do not overcrimp.

On cases that require belling for bullet insertion...... bell only as much as required.

I do not anneal any factory available cases. It's just not worth the time/effort for a little longer case life.

I think by "turning" Cobrajet was referring to inside (or outside) turning of the neck when flow of the brass to the neck of the case causes excess thickening of the walls of the neck.

Da Man has the results of case failures correct.

Body splits are due to FL sizing; neck sizing pretty well prevents that. Head seperations are due to case stretching; usually from excess FL sizing and neck sizing generally fixes that. Neck splits are due to neck sizing and that must be done, some way. Two things can help.

The Lee Collet Neck Sizer works necks the absolute minumum to restore bullet retention. It is much better for neck life than conventional neck sizers, and it makes for straighter necks than usual too! That's good all by itself but the Lee collet die has a learning curve. If the user is a mechanical klutz and unwilling to take the time to learn to use it, it's better to stick to more simple neck sizing dies.

Annealing, properly done, will GREATLY reduce the incidence of split necks. Annealing does NOT require heating the necks to a red glow, that's far too hot, just hot enough to make a faint blue blush on the shoulder is enough.

Annealing or not depends on the quality of the brass you are trying to save and how much you want to save it. If you don't care, it ain't worth the time and trouble. Otherwise, yeah, it really is!

Neck turning, as such, has little to do with how long a neck will last without splitting or with neck sizing itself.

Thanks for the replies so far. As for the mentioning of turning the necks, I understand that it has nothing to do with exteding or diminishing case life, I was needing to know that if by just neck sizing only does that necessitate turning the necks, not trimming the necks. If I can get double the case life by neck sizing and or annealing, then I think I'll go ahead and get me some neck dies or maybe the RCBS X dies. Do those really work that well?

A little experimenting and research this winter has taught me some new techniques...

Case life is destroyed at the reload bench if the loads aren't overly hot...

I have discovered a nifty little die called a Redding Body die.. it bumps the shoulder back strictly and does not touch the neck...

The best thing for sizing the neck back is a Lee Collet Die...

Annealing every 10 reloads or so also helps a lot...

Testing so far with 223 and 22.250, I have been able to reload both cartridges in a batch of ten each, 40 times so far...

My goal was to try and hit 50 reloads.. at 40 they are still going strong...

The Brass is Remington for the 223. and Win for the 22.250...

This is being done in bolt actions...

if you thnk about it... a bag of 100 pieces of brass, and able to get a life span of 40 reloads out of them, will allow you to shoot 4000 rounds out of 1 bag of brass....

Considering all the 223 brass I have picked up at the range over the years...

I have over 500 pieces of 22.250 brass... 600 of 243 brass, 300 of 6mm Rem... and about a 1000 of 06 and 700 or so of 270.. all picked up as range brass over the years...

after all this testing thsi winter, I am sold on this is the way to go on brass....

on Lapua's web site they actually speak of getting 300 reloads out of brass....

between a body die, and a Lee Collet Die.. they pay for themselves over and over at this kind of return...

and don't forget an annealing set up...

if you can mstch Lapau's claims... 300 relaods out of a piece of brass, times a bag of 100... that is 30,000 rounds....

hows that for ROI?

quote:

Annealing every 10 reloads or so also helps a lot...

After every ten? How does the neck tension variation over that many reloads affect accuracy? Would that mean that if I happen to miss a few 'anneals' of some cases along the line when I normally try to anneal at every reload, there would not be any measurable difference? (I have only recently started trying to anneal at every reload).

PS - Love that Spitfire pic!

Well lthe Spitfire represents my love of WW2 AC I picked up living in England in my youth....

My ancestory is the earliest English settlers on North American soil... but my ancestorage has been traced back to at least to 1293 on one side of the family and 1289 on the other side...

So with all of that, I consider myself as loyal to Britain and her colonies as I do consider my loyalty to the USA...

Now back on topic...

I am finding that with this system I am working with ( and self developed I might add), annealing every 10th shot so far seems to be working out just fine...

neck sizing with a Lee Collet Die, gives little impact on working the brass...

and the Redding die is just bumping the shoulder, which seems to need done about every 10th reload also...

it is not resizing the entire body of the brass...

all this is still in development stages of testing... but with being able to do it to 40 reloads so far, with no casualties and the brass is going strong.. If I stopped it now, I'd still consider it a real success...

40 times on a piece of brass.. means 4000 shots on a bag of 100 or 2000 shots on a bag of 50...

for varmint shooting this is great... due to the high volume...

on a hunting rifle, a bag of 50 pieces of brass will last half the life of the barrel...a bag od 100 will last the life of the barrel...more than most folks will shoot in a life time..

as far as neck tension, the bullets are sliding in like butter!

So Seafire, your using two dies for each caliber. Have you experimented with the X-die any at all or have you talked to anyone who's used it? Does it do the same thing as the Redding body die? I really don't want to add two more dies to each individual caliber, that'd be 12 more dies to buy but if they pay for themselves and it sure sounds like they do, then its prolly not a bad thing, just takes up more space on the bench. Keep the info coming folks, this is just what I've been looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
hows that for ROI?

Exactly what it your rate of return?

he he he - it will NEVER be a postive number, but your cost for cases per reload can approach zero . . . .

Has anyone out there been using the X-die from RCBS? And would it be wise to start using a universal decapping die to get away from the expander on a standard sizing/decapping die?

quote:

... as far as neck tension, the bullets are sliding in like butter!

seafire2
You mean neck tension is low and/or sizing is minimal? I've never set shoulders back - am I doing something wrong?

I've mensioned on numerous occasions that I do not size my hornet cases at all and by allowing them to head-space on the necks, there is no case wear at all. (Neck head-spacing is only possible in a hornet chamber with unsized necks - the bullet is centred and held in a wax-lube soaked paper cup). Even a near head separated case that got into the mix was reloaded several times before I found it and tossed it aside. Of course, I have no idea what the pressures are but it not on the starting side of the scale. Actually, although seatin with a paper cup and waxy-lube dipping the necks is a bit painful and slow, by the time one has taken case prepping and anealing out of it it doesn't take any longer than 'normal'. Oh yes, bore cleaning is also taken out of it! There simply is no bore fouling.

(I'm 'kinda' interested in US WW2 AC too!)

quote:

Originally posted by cobrajet:
Has anyone out there been using the X-die from RCBS? And would it be wise to start using a universal decapping die to get away from the expander on a standard sizing/decapping die?

I use numerous RCBS X-dies and have run a considerable test on the .308 using my M1A. Case life was extended from the usual 4-6 firings to over 20 firings per case. Trimming of the case was never necessary. The "donut" never posed a problem.

Just replace the expander ball with one caliber smaller if you don't want to expand the neck. No need to do way with the whole decap rod and add another step to the reloading process.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
hows that for ROI?

Exactly what it your rate of return?

he he he - it will NEVER be a postive number, but your cost for cases per reload can approach zero . . . .

Well at the moment, I am talking about getting 40 reloads out of brass I picked up at the range...

So 40 times on Free brass.. what can you say?

quote:

Originally posted by cobrajet:
Has anyone out there been using the X-die from RCBS? And would it be wise to start using a universal decapping die to get away from the expander on a standard sizing/decapping die?

I haven't used the x sizer die...

I am sure it does all they say it will do..

however the Lee Collet Die, came in the 3 die set for a total of $28.00...

the Redding Body Die was $22.00...

cosider the cost of bullets, primers, powder etc... dies are one of the cheapest investments that one can make for your reloading..

especially if it can stretch case life out that far...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
A little experimenting and research this winter has taught me some new techniques...

Case life is destroyed at the reload bench if the loads aren't overly hot...

I have discovered a nifty little die called a Redding Body die.. it bumps the shoulder back strictly and does not touch the neck...

The best thing for sizing the neck back is a Lee Collet Die...

Annealing every 10 reloads or so also helps a lot...

Testing so far with 223 and 22.250, I have been able to reload both cartridges in a batch of ten each, 40 times so far...

My goal was to try and hit 50 reloads.. at 40 they are still going strong...

The Brass is Remington for the 223. and Win for the 22.250...

This is being done in bolt actions...

if you thnk about it... a bag of 100 pieces of brass, and able to get a life span of 40 reloads out of them, will allow you to shoot 4000 rounds out of 1 bag of brass....

Considering all the 223 brass I have picked up at the range over the years...

I have over 500 pieces of 22.250 brass... 600 of 243 brass, 300 of 6mm Rem... and about a 1000 of 06 and 700 or so of 270.. all picked up as range brass over the years...

after all this testing thsi winter, I am sold on this is the way to go on brass....

on Lapua's web site they actually speak of getting 300 reloads out of brass....

between a body die, and a Lee Collet Die.. they pay for themselves over and over at this kind of return...

and don't forget an annealing set up...

if you can mstch Lapau's claims... 300 relaods out of a piece of brass, times a bag of 100... that is 30,000 rounds....

hows that for ROI?

Give us the benefit of your annealing process, Please.

I shoot alot of 22-250 winchester cases in a factory hunting rifle.
I use WW brass for all 2250 shooting
I use RL7, H380 and Varget powders with 50-55 gr match sierra tips.
I feed all rounds thru the action.
I neck size only.
I anneal after every 4 times.
I trim to length after each 5 reloadings.
I use mid range loads (target loads).
I use the same rifle (bolt action).
I get neck splits fairly often after about 10 reloadings
I get vertical stress features on my cases at about 8-10 loads.
I get horizontal stress signs (ring thinning) that warns of coming case head separation with bright rings around the bases on lighter cases first starting at about 8 reloads.
I very seldom find loose primer pockets or stress symptoms on the bolt face end.

I set my personal limits and my safety limits for this cartidge under this usage at 9 reloads. I am very surprised that you get such extensive reuse of your cases.

I would recommend to others that you probably have something going on that relates to your rifle that allows such extensive reloads. Maybe you were lucky and the tollerances for nexk size and overall cartidge reaming was close to perfect. or maybe your dies happen to very closely match your rifle internal dimensions

I do not know, but my personal experience does not reinforce your feeback as typical. I would recommend that all follow rigid case inspection rules and expect far fewer reloads than 40 per case.

My kids would get pretty upset if I experienced a disfiguring accident at the range. So would I!

Best of luck to all. Be safe first and frugal second.

quote:

I get vertical stress features on my cases at about 8-10 loads.

rje
Can you post pictures of these 'vertical stress signs'. I have never seen or heard of them before. I shoot two cartridges renowned for case separation and do not get it. Those being the hornet and 303 Brit. I did get it at first but a gun maker suggested I lube my loaded cartridges. I have never had a head separation since. I do load my hornet hot enough to elongate the cases but I allow them to headspace on the case mouth and so that controls that. I only trim my cases to square them. My 303 Brit headspaces on the shoulder and those cases never need trimming. The 303 Brit loads were not exactly mild but were not excessive either. Certainly a lot lower than a 22-250 so my experience may not apply to you.

quote:

Give us the benefit of your annealing process, Please.

TEANCUM - i've only done it once and haven't yet had a chance to try the loads from the process, but it was quite easy and i see no reason not to do it if/when conditions call for it.

there might be easier or "better" ways, but what i did was stand them up in a pan that had water up to the area near the shoulder, i used a torch to get them red-hot, then knocked them over into the water to quickly cool them. that's all there was to it.

i don't remember the "scientific logic" behind the process but you can read it in nearly any manual, including hornady's, IIRC. it is supposed to relieve the fatigue that they encounter from being sized, resized, stretched and contracted etc.

as for neck-sizing only, i see no reason not to, especially in bolt action rifles. most manuals talk about it but lee goes in-depth explaining the various ways it helps improve accuracy and lengthens case life. in a nutshell, it improves accuracy because the cases are fire-formed (cutom-fit) to your chamber and lengthens case life due to the much-reduced stress on the metal of the brass. lee also ties both of these benefits to using mild loads at least 10% reduced from maximum, which he contends leads to better accuracy in most cases.

lee talks about getting dozens of reloads (i think with the collet die they say you can get either 50 or a hundred reloads) and i see no reason to doubt that experience, though i would certainly inspect each case carefully before reloading as you never know what can happen.

Are the carbide expander balls worth the extra cash on the neck sizing dies? I've located one for .243 but not sure if I really need the carbide? What say you.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

I get vertical stress features on my cases at about 8-10 loads.

rje
Can you post pictures of these 'vertical stress signs'. I have never seen or heard of them before. I shoot two cartridges renowned for case separation and do not get it. Those being the hornet and 303 Brit. I did get it at first but a gun maker suggested I lube my loaded cartridges. I have never had a head separation since. I do load my hornet hot enough to elongate the cases but I allow them to headspace on the case mouth and so that controls that. I only trim my cases to square them. My 303 Brit headspaces on the shoulder and those cases never need trimming. The 303 Brit loads were not exactly mild but were not excessive either. Certainly a lot lower than a 22-250 so my experience may not apply to you.

hi 303guy!
here are pics of cases after 10 reloads - notice the vertical stress marks I was talking about.





any feedabck appreciated

I'm not sure what's happening here rje. I can't seem to view your pics! Oh well. I'll check again later.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

I get vertical stress features on my cases at about 8-10 loads.

rje
Can you post pictures of these 'vertical stress signs'. I have never seen or heard of them before. I shoot two cartridges renowned for case separation and do not get it. Those being the hornet and 303 Brit. I did get it at first but a gun maker suggested I lube my loaded cartridges. I have never had a head separation since. I do load my hornet hot enough to elongate the cases but I allow them to headspace on the case mouth and so that controls that. I only trim my cases to square them. My 303 Brit headspaces on the shoulder and those cases never need trimming. The 303 Brit loads were not exactly mild but were not excessive either. Certainly a lot lower than a 22-250 so my experience may not apply to you.

here are the case pics. had to specify them to http server address.

http://sheardata.com/img_1551.jpg
http://sheardata.com/img_1548.jpg

Seafire and 303guy. I finally got my 10 reloaded brass pics up for 22-250. They show up as two jpg links. could you comment on waether you think I am seeing vertical splits on these cases and separation signs.

Seafire - I respect your opinion much on this.

Mmmm... What do you think seafire2? The first pic looks like it has a scratch from some source - magazine maybe? Aside from that, well, I don't see any problem. There are some funny looking marks or ripples on the left but ...
The expansion ring looks normal enough and the pic is hiehg enough in resolution to see quite a bit. It appears a little more accentuated on one side (the bottom in the pic).

The second pic looks like a real closeup of a dustmite! Scary but in reality not bad. The truth is, I don't know. I don't see any problem. I have had cases with deep longitudinal scratches that I just used anyway and they were just fine and are still in service.

seafire2, it's up to you know - I can't help.

Back to topic please.

Sorry about that! New folks coming on could miss the first post so, ...

quote:

I've been reloading for many years now and up to this point all I've ever done is full length size. However now that brass prices are getting high I've been considering neck sizing only to help extend the life of the brass. I only have one gun for each round so chambering shouldn't be a problem but my question is do I need to turn my necks if I'm neck sizing only and will annealing accomplish the same goal of extending brass life?

I tried to answer this last night... it took 45 minutes to type it and then AR crashed.. thank God for being able to be smart enough to cut and paste and save it as a word doc to post later.. other wise I would have been pissed...



Extending Case life….

Well guys, It is late, and I have had a long day here, but I will try to answer the questions put forth.... based on my experience..

I am no expert, but have learned a lot pursuing this subject and thinking about it..

I also apologize of not seeing the questions earlier, since they were posted a week or more ago... I have had a serious bout with illness this month that really set me on my ass, so I again apologize for the delay here...

Real quick for Cobrajet's question about the extra expense for a carbide die for a 243....
Those are great, but spendy. If you think about it, what the carbide does is let the inside neck slide easily down the expander ball, and the outside of the case slide easily up and down inside the resizer die..

To answer what I think is resulting in neck splits only after 10 reloads or less for RJE, my answer addresses the same problem....

I use to get neck splits on cases after about 10 reloads in a variety of calibres also... I've come to the conclusion that if not loaded hot, most of the stress on the brass occurs at the reload bench... resizing etc...

I figured that the necks were all touching the expander ball, so I use to unscrew it and give it a shot with WD 40 to lube it... this helped but still didn't stop me from getting neck splits, just prolonged the number of reloads from 8 to 10 out to about 15 before they would split... this was without annealing, as I didn't have anyone to really show me how to do so...

everything I know is self taught, which is both a good thing AND a bad thing...

Avoiding Neck Splits, or stretching neck life out:

While cleaning a rifle barrel one day, it suddenly down on me ( making me feel like after all these years)... get a bore brush, on a pistol cleaning rod, and lube it with spray lube.. then use it to lube the inside the case necks instead of lubing the sizing ball... I also noticed that swtiching from WD 40, to AMZOIL synthetic spray lube, was definitely worth the extra cost.. ( although I get it free from a friend who sells the stuff, and I do a lot of free stuff for him also)...I highly recommend the stuff.. I tried sythetic gun lube also, but it wasn't as good as this AMZOIL stuff...

Switching to this, my case neck life span easily jumped from 15 to 20 plus...without having neck splits..

and this was without annealing!!!!

Annealing:

I tried the way TAZ mentioned...
Then I tried heating them and dropping them into a small metal bucket with water in it to cool them off...

Both times the brass got all black and ugly looking.. guess they were functional but they looked like crap...

So finally what I tried, and this worked just fine.. instead of letting them cool in water, I let them air cool...

I have done this two ways.. either works just fine...

I have a torch end to put on a regular Coleman qt size propane tank...
or for economy, I have a 7 gallon propane tank, I just hook up to one of my Coleman stoves..

I do this in the garage...Using a pair of channel locks, I hold the brass neck over the flame until it gets red all the way around the case...

then I just drop it into a very small metal bucket I have, containing no water... I just let it air dry...

it comes out looking like factory annealed brass, without all that black that was all over them when I cooled them in water...

Depriming...

I am a big fan of the Universal depriming dies, period... yeah it is an extra step, but I have learned not to rush ANY of my reloading... the extra steps, make the extra mile and result in longer brass life.....I deprime every case using the Universal Depriming dies...

Neck Sizing:
There are TWO great neck sizing dies out there..
The Hornady and the Lee Collet.. both are excellent...The Lee is more well known than the Hornady, but I prefer neither over the other...
I just have more Lee's since I always order the dies sets that contain them...

If one does not have a neck sizing die, I have learned that you can neck size with a full length die also... to do so, tighten it all the way down, then back it off 1 to 2 full turns...

Then adjust the expander ball, where it is all the way up in the case, not at the bottom like I see a lot of guys do...

I also usually break off the decapping pin on these dies on purose or remove them, as I rely on the Universal Decapping Die..

The few times it happens, I can then resize a case that may have a primer in it...

Tumbling

I usually do this sort of stuff in the evening, and then will tumble the brass overnight.. it is pretty shiney by the neck morning...

Shoulder bump Back..

When the case won't chamber any more, we always full length size at that point... I always did, and that results in stress down at the webb at the bottom of the case...

Well recently I discovered a nifty little product that has been around for eternity, but I never knew about it... The Redding Body Dies!

These things will bump the shoulder back without sizing the rest of the case!!!
So no more stress down at the webb...

They cost about $22 to $24.00 apiece in the normal calibers...I plan on getting one for EACH bottleneck cartridge I load for...

If I was starting over, the Redding Body Die, a Neck Sizing Die and a Seating die is what I would get for each caliber...

Full Length Resizing
I do this now as a last resort.. even new brass I am using the Body Die on to get it into shape and the neck sizing die to make sure the neck is all concentric...

However when I full length size, my method will probably make the purists cringe, but once again, I am Joe Self Taught...

I originally tried the spray lubes and the rolling lubes etc...

Finally I went down, got me a dedicated $7.00 blue frying pan, used for camping...

I hang it off my reload bench on a hook...

I spray the frying pan with lube ( use to be WD 40, but now, I use the Amzoil spray lube).. then I hang it on the hook.. the excess drains off the pan, and down onto an old piece of carpet square on the floor underneath it...

When I have to lube cases, I put them into the frying pan and shake it around getting the 20 or so cases in there lubed....

because the excess lube already drained off the pan, and with the Amzoil Lube, the cases are lightly lubed and they are no real mess or fuss involved...

for loading blocks, I use either 9mm pistol trays I pick out of the trash can at the range, or for 22.250 and 06 sized stuff, I use the trays for 45 ACP, once again out of the trash can at the range...

However I never see a stuck case anymore, using this process, and the Amzoil spray lube..

the dedicated $7.00 frying pan has given me like 10 years of service now...so that was a cheap investment..

Tumbling:

once again, after doing this in the evening, I resize and prep the cases, then tumble them overnight...they are nice and clean in the morning.. I prefer crushed Walnut, which I buy locally for a coffee can full for $4.00 or $5.00 depending of the mood of the guy at the gunshop.....I spend about $10.00 a year on tumbling media...and I use that tumbler a lot..

So right now, this is hopefully giving an idea of my techniques and procedures that are yielding results.. a lot of this has been trial and error...

a little prudence on velocity, will also dramatically increase case life, as will dedicating batches of brass to one rifle...

I shoot multiple rifles in the same caliber, in a batch of different calibers, particulary in 223, 22.250 and 243...

each batch of brass is broken down into lots of 10, and put in a zip lock bag, with a 3 x 5 card in there, that lists the history of that batch...

I record the powder charge, the bullet, the primer used, whether Full length sized, neck sized or didn't need either, the date of the load...

on the back of the card I list when it was annealed... It may sound anal retentive, but the number of guns I shoot etc, I need to keep records...

I also keep a record on the number of shots down a barrel, what the load was, the date..
I do these on accounting worksheet you can buy at Walmart and just keep it in a loose leaf notebook, by caliber and rifle...

so right now, before I got smacked with the flu from hell along with walking pneumonia at the same time.. I was able to stretch brass life out so far to 40 reloads on 223 cases and 35 on the 22.250....according to my files...

Keeping all these records and to keep doing this is time consuming along with dealing with family life, and a highly active 14 yr old, involved in Scouts, School, community college course I am taking with him...so sorry I have not completed all of this...


next goal is to get these to 50 reloads... If I can do that, then it is a rip roaring success..

then after that, the techniques will be down pat and we will see how far this goes....

it has taken me 45 minutes to type this reply... so I will answer RJE's picture questions on a separate post...

best regards..
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by rje:
Seafire and 303guy. I finally got my 10 reloaded brass pics up for 22-250. They show up as two jpg links. could you comment on waether you think I am seeing vertical splits on these cases and separation signs.

Seafire - I respect your opinion much on this.

RJE:

looking at your pictures I would have to give two speculations...

on picture one, I'd look to see how clean your chamber is in your rifle.. I would say the brass was being scored on extraction, from dirt, debris or metal shavings in there...

otherwise it is getting scratched in your resizing die, due to the same problems... you didn't mention any brass splitting down the sides did you?

The second picture, after only 8 or 9 reloads splitting at the webb like that...

in my limited experience, I'd have to say that your rifle has a loose chamber, the brass is being able to expand more than it would in a snug chamber...

it is also easier not to notice the debris in there that might be scratching your case walls...if the chamber is loose...

however the brass is getting expanded and then sized back to normal, so that area of the brass in being worked in some way...

I think a Redding Body Die would eliminate that, even if your rifle chamber is loose, as all the body does is bump the shoulder back...

problems like this, is what I have had to try and figure out on my own brass, by reading signs.. figuring out why and then figuring out how to eliminate it or cut down on it, and extend out brass life...

prudent loads help a lot and it sounds like you are doing just that...

I don't know if that helps at all, and I could be totally off base, not being a trained gunsmith... just a guy who works a lot with his own stuff, with goals like stretching out brass life, and lower costs of shooting, to be able to shoot more often.. and not wear out barrels in the process...

Good luck, and hopefully this helped.. if it didn't, blame 303 Guy, he gave me too many beers, just like all of those down under 'mates' do all the time..


cheers
seafire

quote:

Good luck, and hopefully this helped.. if it didn't, blame 303 Guy, he gave me too many beers, just like all of those down under 'mates' do all the time..

Tee ... hee ... hee ...!

quote:

Shoulder bump Back..

When the case won't chamber any more, we always full length size at that point... I always did, and that results in stress down at the webb at the bottom of the case...

Now I get it! (My rifles don't take enough pressure to get to that point).

SEAFIRE and 303GUY!
Seafire- Thank you for your feedback on the cases I provided. I took the rifle to a gunsmith yesterday and he confirmed your judgement on both counts. YES, their is alot of free space around the cartridge in the breech and the gun is just within spec. Also, he and I were able to identify and sand down a rough area that he believes caused the vertical scratching near the web.
So thank you for all your help.
see below for a comment about annealing!

303GUY- Thank you for your observations about no pressure signs and noting that it might be sratching for those vertical scratches. I think this is confirmed now. I really appreciate your eyes on this issue and it looks life you guyz may have saved me many hundreds of dollars as I will not be tossing brass prematurely.

Anealing - My approach is to anneal after every 4 reloads.I use a bernzomatic torch on my bench and I hold the cases between forefinger and thumb. rotate them until I get a slight glow and then drop them into a 5 gal bucket of 1" of cold water. I have never had mouth splits and I use neck sizing with no neck lubing.

Ultrasonic case cleaning - You guys really should try this approach. I found the article on 6mmbr.com and have used it regularly. It involves Vinegar+water at 50% dillution followed by case cleaner and then water. The ultrasonic unit cost only 50.00 and the cases are remarkably clean. Shiney as NEW. I did use a tumbler, but got tired of air pressure flushing of the cases to get rid of residue.

Thanks again!

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So finally what I tried, and this worked just fine.. instead of letting them cool in water, I let them air cool...

seafire, you've got a lot more experience with this than i do, but isn't the rapid cooling (cold water) an essential part of the process in order to get the metal the way it is supposed to be?

mine have never turned black; more of a purplish, rainbow-looking color.

The water dunk tank is so the heat meant for the neck area doesn't migrate down the body to the case head where no annealing is allowed.

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mine have never turned black; more of a purplish, rainbow-looking color.

I have had one or two case necks turn black but you should have seen them before I heated them! I think the 'black' was from surface contamination of the brass.

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Originally posted by tasunkawitko:

quote:

So finally what I tried, and this worked just fine.. instead of letting them cool in water, I let them air cool...

seafire, you've got a lot more experience with this than i do, but isn't the rapid cooling (cold water) an essential part of the process in order to get the metal the way it is supposed to be?

mine have never turned black; more of a purplish, rainbow-looking color.

Taz:

I don't know about having more experience.. I am just reporting what I have observed...

I tried it without water, and air cooling got the same results...without the brass looking like crap....I know it is anal retentive, but I hate my brass looking like crap...

As far as when I anneal, I hold the brass with a pair of channel locks or plyers..

otherwise, I would probably bake my finger tips...

I have ntoiced that water turns brass black in short order... I find brass laying at a few spots in the woods, where folks shoot...and with the rain we get this time of year, some of it can look like crap in a few days.. one side will be all black and the other side brand new and shiny...

It does seem the more the brass has been neck sized tho, the more often the necks should be annealed...

in my experimenting, one neck has split in its 42nd reload in one batch of Remington brass...

I stopped by Sportsman's Warehouse today, and they hardly had any brass at all.. only rifle brass they had was a fresh shipment of 22.250...

So this experimenting of stretching brass life out, is going to be highly worthwhile...

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
The water dunk tank is so the heat meant for the neck area doesn't migrate down the body to the case head where no annealing is allowed.

Dave is 100% correct. The water bath prevents the Case Head from Annealing.

When the Case Head becomes too soft, it will allow Primer Pockets to expand easily, thus shortening Case Life. Also some rifle designs which do not handle escaping Pressure well(M70, Mousers, etc) can result in Case Head Failure which can damage the action.

Whether it will result in a Ka-Boom similar to the recent seafire Blue Dot Load fiasco is anyone's guess.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:


Case life is destroyed at the reload bench if the loads aren't overly hot...

I love that sentence


We have located the enemy.
We will win this war of attrition with small chambers and loosely adjusted large dies.
We will blow up the bridge at the annealing torch.

Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to my questions, especially seafire who has gone to great length with his explanations, its GREATLY appreciated!!! This is the very reason why this sight is one of if not the first one I go to when I get home from work, thanks again guys and gals!! So now I guess its time for me to invest in a universal decapping die along with a redding body die and a Lee Collett style neck die. And in light of the knowledge gained here maybe I can put off buying one of those expensive Gracey powered case trimmers since case trimming should be kept to a minimum. I can prolly get by with a good wilson with the sinclair extras!