It never ceases to amaze me how easily people on these forums are so ready to react hostilely to postings by others. Probably because words alone don't convey a person's real motives or feelings as opposed to real face-to-face conversation. Some people UNINTENTIONALLY AND WITH NO MALEVOLENT INTENT choose words or phrases (shall we say) POORLY or just aren't to good at composition or maybe are having a bad day, etc. What do we have to do on these forums - treat everyone with kids gloves? Before someone jumps on somebody, they should try to understand where they're coming from. Did the word "liar" appear in my post?

A - I was just trying to make sure the ranges the groups were shot at were correct (people do make errors and typos do happen).

But mainly what I'm wondering is:

What does this say about all the money and work that goes into custom guns?

Are we saying that a mass produced FACTORY GRADE gun can shoot as well as a "blueprinted" custom rig? OR can you take a mass produced gun and just with simple tinkering (oh, there's another bad word choice that can set someone off - see what I mean? - I should say instead "...with application of some basic accurizing techniques" - but that takes longer) OR by finding that ONE perfect load, make it shoot 1/4 m.o.a.?

I still find these results amazing (Now, I didn't say I don't believe them). How did RUGER pull this off? Do they blueprint actions on the assembly line? Are they using Shilen or Lilja match barrels? Obviously not. So how do these guns shoot like this? As Norm points out, these would be incredible groups (for a factory gun) at 100 yards. Does this say that the right load can make any gun shoot 1/4 m.o.a. or that mass production can produce perfect results?

Thes guns (some) have sporter barrels on them and round bottom forends and also, calibers like 25/06 or 6mm Rem (think there even was a 7mm Mag somewhere too) are not generally the choice when trying to shoot small groups.

May I ask here - I'd be curious to have these guns gone over by an "accuracy" smith to see just how true the barrel/action is and how perfect the bore/rifling is to get down to EXACTLY how they shoot this well! We might all gain some incredible information and insight.

FOR THE RECORD: I NEVER HAVE PURPOSELY INTENDED OR WILL INTEND TO ATTACK SOMEONE TO CAUSE HOSTILITY ON THESE FORUMS. (I admit sometimes I may cross the line a bit JUST to be sure I get someone's attention).
I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN ACADEMIC DISCUSSIONS LEADING TO BETTER UNDERSTANDING AND INSIGHTS INTO THE TOPICS DISCUSSED ON THESE FORUMS.

I'v edited the offensive post.

[ 03-08-2003, 22:43: Message edited by: sonofagun ]

sonofgun - You lost me in there with the offensive post thing (Been reading the Match King thread for three days now - and this is mild). Thanks for the quote correction - I'm not mad at you for that...just making sure there's no hard feelings.

In responce to the distances Steve pulled off those groups (nice shooting Steve), I spent some time on the 200 yard range today w/ my 7-30 Waters handgun and the longer I shot, the smaller my "groups - 5 shot strings" got. Honestly, I started with a vertical string of 5 that went a whopping 8" (only 2" wide - go figure). Four rounds (a round being one string of 5 shots) later I was at 3" - then I ran out of loads. These were all identically loaded rounds, the only difference was me and my squeeze. I'd be tickled w/a 2" 5 shot group at 200 yards, and I truly think with a little more range time (200 yards) I'll have that.
Those groups (Steve's rifle) are questionable, however, Steve wrote that he's had some of those guns for 30+ years, so I'd expect that out of my friearms if I spent that much time with them (at 200 yards) - wouldn't you?

[ 03-09-2003, 05:34: Message edited by: T/C nimrod ]

How?

Let's say I wanna find a load for a new .22-250.

You start by picking a good bullet (for me that would be the Sierra 52 HPBT), then you load the following powders in 0.3 grain increments:

BL-C From 29.0 grains to 38.2 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
H-322 From 29.0 grains to 31.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
H-335 From 29.5 grains to 35.4 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
H-380 From 32.0 grains to 42.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
H-414 From 36.5 grains to 42.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
H-450 From 40.0 grains to 45.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
H-4350 From 39.0 grains to 41.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
H-4831 From 39.0 grains to 42.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
H-4895 From 29.5 grains to 37.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
IMR-3031 From 28.5 grains to 36.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
IMR-4064 From 30.5 grains to 36.5 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
IMR-4320 From 30.9 grains to 37.5 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
IMR-4350 From 36.0 grains to 40.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
IMR-4831 From 39.2 grains to 40.2 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
IMR-4895 From 30.0 grains to 36.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
W-748 From 30.5 grains to 39.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer
W-760 From 35.5 grains to 42.0 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Prim

After you evaluate the performance of each powder at each load point, several times over (generally 6 rounds of testing, 5 shots each round), you select the best powder.

Then you take that load and again load it, in 0.3 grain steps, only this time you use Winchester primers, then you do it again with CCI primers, then you do it again with Federal primers.

After you find the right amount of powder and the right primer, you start varying the seating depth from "on the lands" to "way too short" in 0.003" steps.

When you are all done with that you finally have your load...if you are lucky!

It took over 6 years to find the right load for one of my .25-06's...it took nearly 2 years to find the load for a 7mm Remington Magnum.

I have one .22-250 that I have been working on for nearly a year and it still hasn't shown me any promise...as well as another 6mm Remington that I have beern working on just as long, and it still doesn't meet my requirements.

Like I say at the top of that target page, "What You Can do With A Little Effort, Time and Patience"

[ 03-09-2003, 12:28: Message edited by: ricciardelli ]

Some questions: As a basis of comparison, how do those guns group with plain, vanilla factory ammo?

OR if you've never shot factory fodder in them, what's the WORST groups they've shot (under optimum shooting conditions with the shooter doing his part also)?

Did some of these guns have sporter weight barrels?

Are there any guns you have beeen unable to group this well with no matter what load(s) you've tried?

4 comments: Nice shootin' Steve!

Benchrest competitors would lose with those groups.

When using statistical analysis, the larger the data pool, the more accurate the projection. 10x5 shot strings is a reliable pool for the most part, but not absolutely necessary. It's significance looms more as the target grows smaller. Crowrifle's method is good, so are others. If you don't want to shoot your .338/416 w/300 gr bullets 5 times for group, hey, I understand!

He who selectivly discards data is a charlitan in the house of truth!