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| one of us |
I'm unsure where to post this question, so I'll start here. When you shoot a "group" what exactly are you shooting? I keep reading posts that say " I shot a 1/2" group with this load." Is this with 2 shots or 10 shots? When I say I shot a group it is usually a 5 shot string. I recently shot a .612" group w/ a 7-30 Waters (Contender-100 yards). This was a 7 shot string. My previous best was .525", but that was a 5 shot string. Now, is a 5 shot string a waste of materials when it comes to load development? I went to using 5 shot groups when I found that those extra shots would sometimes give me a better picture of what a load was truly capable of. | ||
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Personally I think you're on the right track. If someone says it shoots 0.25 inch I tend to want more information. "Called fliers" is another term with which I'm not comfortable. Many folks will talk about a 5-shot group and neglect to mention they shot 6-7 times for those 5 shots. Beyond that many guys will talk about their "wallet group" (not that THEY call it that) or the best group a particular rifle ever produced. This is statistically insignificant, an outlier. So, in order to best quantify I would ask that people tell us a little more than simply "here's a 5-shot group from my fill-in-blank rifle." Personally I pay more attention when they talk about aggregrate or average groups and even then I'll pay more attention when it's at least 5 but preferably more like 20 5-shot groups that are in a given range before I consider that rifle capable of stated performance. To accurately quantify the shooting sports requires some basic statistical calculations. Unfortunately there is a lot of statistical ignorance in the shooting sports. Just my thoughts. Reed | |||
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Oh Hell Nimrod...you done opened a big can o worms. This one might rival the infamous Matchking novel. Check out "Cheap Accuracy" for a preview....but to answer your question to me it means 3 shots for a magnum cal and 5 for others. I shoot "groups" for the following reasons: 1.) Test Handloads 2.) Verify a Scope and mount setup's ability to hold zero. 3.)Braggin rights with my pals. There will be some that say #3 is not valid UNLESS you fire some 20 groups and aggregate the results....but I feel that as long as my pals use the same methodology as I, then I'll keep braggin or eating crow which ever the case may be.... BTW Reed ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} and I where typing at the same time and he beat me to the post button... ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} [ 03-05-2003, 21:47: Message edited by: Dave Jenkins ] | |||
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quote:I like to get 3 shot groups from a hunting light barrel rifle at a set distance and method of shooting, and 5 shot groups from a varmint/heavy barrel gun with similar specifics...distance,position of shooting, and support style......a article in one of the more precise gun rags once had the high math of a probility theory done by super computer that said the 7 shot group was most reflective of the true overall accuracy day in and day out of a load/gun combo? as the other post states the screamer! groups aren't reflective of a gun/load/shooter combo and aggs over a period are the best indicators along with the shooting conditions as to style and conditions of the groupings....I try to call flyers and if I have been shooting at a certain level and have been calling flyers I do discount that group with the called flyer for my records but not the uncalled ones....good luck and good shooting!! | |||
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I usually shoot five, 3 shot groups ( cleaning and allowing the barrel to cool between groups ) to test a new load or bullet. Initally I place 2 targets on top one another and replace the top target after each group is fired. The bottom target records all 15 shots and gives an overall picture of the groups. I measure all five groups to determine the mean. This will usually limit the impact of an occaisional flyer, and gives a better look at the rifle/load overall potential. As Reed pointed out, not much faith can be put into the target someone carries in their wallet. Many so-called MOA rifles don't live up to that claim, but in practical terms it usually does not matter. | |||
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It depends on what I am shootiing. Lots of time it is a three shot group for hunting rifles. I will shoot 5 shots for heavy barrel. For Revolvers I like to shoot a six shot to get all the cylinders. Lots of people like to tell about the best group that thay have. (I have did this too) Group consistancy is what really counts. I had a couple of times groups that I could never duplicate again. Shooter luck? Good Day? This will be an inresting thread Hcliff | |||
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Well, sounds like we have to setup some kind of "thread rules" when talking about our loads. I've been curious about some of the "group" sizes I've seen posted in the past. Usually when asked (by me) the poster gets upset - as if I'm calling their bluff. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt you guys can shoot incredible with you guns/loads. I'd just like to know what the standard is for braggin' rights. Another point that was brought to my attention was the fact that I no longer keep targets for some of my handguns. I used to keep my best targets on file just for braggin'.(and I thought it would be nice to send them with a barrel if I ever unloaded one) After a while all the targets started looking the same, is that the point that one can claim a group size? If so, I'm willing to bet 90% of us will change our claims.I'll admit the difference between my "best" group is 2 shots less/.200" better than my "average" 5 shot string. | |||
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Reed - I also wanted to comment on your "fliers". I'm currently working on a .41 magnum. I had a 5 shot string (50 yards) that measured 1.02". However shot #3 "flew" high, the other four shots (#1-#2, and #4-#5)went into a .522" group. Now, I'm claiming shooter error on #3, making it a flier in my mind. Is this correct? I don't know, that's why I'm asking ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Fliers have also been defined as the result of incorrectly sized brass? [ 03-05-2003, 22:58: Message edited by: T/C nimrod ] | |||
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For hunting purposes, five three shot groups is statistically sufficient. The LARGEST group of the five is a decent measure of "hunting accuracy". The reason I say the largest, and not the average, is that any one of those fifteen shots could have been at a game animal, so to me it makes sense to catalog the shot(s) farthest from where I was aiming. Also, all these posters that talk about a rifle's alleged accuracy "if I do my part" or "on a good day" are really saying nothing. Either the shooter/rifle/scope combo can do it, or it can't. If we can't pick which days will be "good days" when we are afield, why should we pick them when "testing accuracy" at the range? I would be much more interested in what size groups someone can get offhand, prone, or sitting with their alleged "sub moa" hunting rig. Those groups would be a much better indicator of true "hunting accuracy". A 1 MOA rifle is no better than a two MOA rifle if a ten MOA shooter is using it. I spend a good deal of time at the range. I see guys firing big game rigs off sandbages all the time. I almost never see anyone shooting from field positions. One tiny group off a sandbag doesn't impress me. Five decent groups offhand do. That being said, when working up loads, I do the five, three-shot group thing. Once the load is worked up, I may fire one group at the beginning of a range session to check zero, but then all my shooting is from field positions, at distances from 100-300 yards. When doing some informal competition shooting (loser buys the Cokes), most of the fellows who are always shooting off bags rarely can hit a 9x11 sheet of paper 3 out of 3 times at 100 yards. They usually mutter something about "I oughta practice more" as we are enjoing the cokes they bought. | |||
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If you fired 7 shots at the target, you sure as hell don't pick the 5 best...you pick the 5 worst, and call it a 5-shot group, or you pick all 7 and call it a 7-shot group. When scoring bullseye competition, scoring starts with the outermost hole, and works inwards until the sanctioned number of shots are counted. If it was a 20 shot string, and there are 25 holes in the target, you count the worst 20. If you fire those 7 shots at a target, and the 7 shots group in 3-1/2", then you also have a 5-shot 3-1/2" group, or a 4-shot 3-1/2" group, etc. A flyer is a flyer...and it counts in measuring the group. If I fire the first 4 shots and they are 0.125", and the 5th shot lands 5" away.....too damn bad...it is a 5" group...and if you only wanna count 4 of the shots, it is STILL a 5" group! | |||
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First, it sounds as though you have a very nice pistol there. I say that WITH inclusion of the 3rd shot as 1 inch at 50 yards with a pistol is GOOD in my book. Having said that, in my experience you did not witness a "flier" based on information at hand. The only way to answer this is to continue shooting while trying to correct what you think caused that 3rd shot to go high, be it muscle spasm, bad trigger pull, a bad case, some other load problem, etc. If your corrections then work you should see your AVERAGE 5-shot group closer to 0.6 than 1.0 and you can call it a "flier." If not, then the average will stay closer to 1.0 and it was then NOT a "flier." I hope that made sense. Reed | |||
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Steve, does that "flier" apply to load testing? In my situation above, I feel that was my best load; now, I will be shooting that load again to determine if it is repeatable. But, if you have one shot that prints completely away from the rest, is one not to overlook it? I'm talking with a human behind the trigger - error will happen that is not load related. I agree with you that flier makes the group what it is, not what it could be. | |||
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ricciardelli, As usual, well said. Reed | |||
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Reed - I've been using average vertical deviation(AVD) and standard deviation(SD) formulas with this project, which in the nut shell, gives you an "average" measurement to compare loads with. That particular load gave me an AVD of .210" and a SD of .273". Not perfect, but the best of the loads developed so far. This formula takes some of the error out of determining the best load for a given firearm (maybe relating to Dan's OCW method)What you end up doing is measuring impact distance from a middle of group reference line. | |||
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It sounds as though you may be somewhere between the Audette and what Dan's been talking about. One thing I personally like about the Audette method is that windage is effectively taken out of the equation and windage is the lion's share of variation due to conditions. In other words, horizontal dispersion is not factored into the measurement. It sounds as though you're doing that and I think that's a good thing. With my understanding of Dan's method (and I have not read even probably 1/100 of what's been posted so I may be off base) he's still taking some measure of load performance from horizontal dispersion and I think that's then factoring in variables that are not necessarily influenced solely by the load...in other words the conditions and those variables are multi-dimensioned (wind primarily, but outside temperature and humidity to name a few others). I hope that made sense??? Like I said previously, I think you're approaching things in the right way from the sounds of it. I just don't have time for the guys with the wallet groups and it sounds like this is repeatable so I say keep up the good work. Good luck. Reed | |||
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A "group" is a herd of bullets all crowded as close to each other as they can get. Like cows when a cold wind is blowing!! Ususally three, five, or ten! | ||
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Reed - ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} don't get me wrong, I am not using the OCW or the Audette methods. The AVD and SD formulas came from a publication called Precision Handloading, they are just a way to measure precision and accuracy. My reference to Dan's OCW was about load development. i don't want to go there in this thread - I'm interested in what everybody calls a group compared to my "ways" - be them acceptable or not. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} Thanks for your ideas!! | |||
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Well, to finish my thought, unless you can NAIL DOWN the reason a shot went awry then it's part of the group until proven otherwise. And the more shots in that group the better. Of course that's why it's easier to talk about averages then trying to keep track of a 100-shot group... Good luck. Reed | |||
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A couple of examples of flyers...  This group measured around 0.580-inch, for 5-shots at 200-yards (Would have been around 0.286-inch if it weren't for the one I pulled!) It was fired using a Ruger 77V in .22-250 Remington with Leupold 24x optics Case: Remington Primer: Remington 9-1/2 Powder: 39.2 grains of H-414 Bullet: Sierra 55 grain Spitzer Boat Tail  This group, which measured somewhere around 0.342-inches for 5-shots at 200-yards. It was fired using a Ruger 77R in 6MM Remington with Leupold 9x optics Case: Remington Primer: Remington 9-1/2 Powder: 43.2 grains of IMR-4350 Bullet: Sierra 85 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail  This group measured around 0.489-inch, for 5-shots at 200-yards (Would have been around 0.289-inch if it weren't for the one I pulled!) It was fired using a Ruger 77R in .25-06 Remington with Leupold 10x optics Case: Remington Primer: Winchester WLR Powder: 52.5 grains of H-4831 Bullet: Sierra 120 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail All the above are examples... | |||
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quote:A buddy & myself had a long-standing "argument" over who's rifle was more accurate. Finally, he called my bluff & I had to put up or shut up. We each fired *ONE* five shot group at 100 yards, side by side. He put the micrometer to them, and lo & behold, I won! I still have the target where he wrote across it.... "Your group is .007 smaller, you win". One group, one chance, and .007 inch. Will I shoot him again, and go for an aggregate? Heck no! My lead is WAY to small!! Would the results be different if we fired one more, or 20 more, groups? Heck yeah, but for NOW, I have bragging rights! ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:Were these fired with out-of-the-box Rugers or were they tuned, rebarreled, etc.?? | |||
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So, Steve with the fliers those groups are "AROUND" .25 MOA. If you did not fire 20 or more similar groups would you say that those rifles are 1/4 Min. rifles? Or would you simply state that these loads exhibit potential in these rifles..... or would you just put those targets back into your wallet? and continue with your tinkering because thats what you/we do | |||
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They wer fired with "out of the box" Rugers. The only thing I did was adjust the trigger and totally free-float the barrel all the way down (which is what I do with EVERY Ruger 77 I have ever owned.) | |||
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quote:Those targets are not kept in my wallet. As far as the number of groups fired...I'm not sure...I have been using the 6mm as a hunting rifle since around 1968, and the two 22-250's since the same year. So, I would guess that more than "20 groups" have been fired, and the results have been the same every time. The .25-06 was a real pain...took me 6 years to find the right load for it! But, as you can see, it was worth it. My longest one-shot antelope kill was made with that rifle, at 704 yards. | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
Steve, now THOSE ARE GROUPS!!! | ||
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So, one is to conclude that a 5 shot string is not a waste of materials when it comes to load development? If not, then that means a 3 shot group is inconclusive? I didn't mean to stray off topic the way I did - from my original post - I'm still uncertain what is "politically correct" to call a group as it pertains to shooting. | |||
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Steve: It is interesting, you say "pulled" for the fliers, but the fliers tend to scribe a bullet strike that may be along the path of the lazy-eight or horizontal ellipse of the socalled barrel vibration.. just a wee bit of more velocity, or less, or bullet weight, or muzzle movement? I am keen to know your opinion on such matters. Jameister | |||
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My opinion of the matter? Simple... I screwed-up the shot! | |||
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Your a hoot!! By the way. I sure appreciate all the work you have done with your web page. It has helped me find my way from novice to beginner at this crazy quest. Jameister | |||
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A real group for a hunting rifle would be one shot,the first, X times on a X days. POI, how close? Sure wouldn't be easy to do. But that is what we looking for isn't it when we shot groups. | |||
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Downwindtracker2 Right on. A group (or herd as eldeguello would call it ) is one shot, in the same exact place, every day, rain, wind, snow or heat. No variation, always. | |||
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quote:Hey T/C nimrod, Good thread. 1. I'd say it depends on what your goal is. I've never taken more than 2-shots at the same Game animal. And, I've only done that twice in over 4 decades of hunting. I say that not as bragging, but simply to point out that a 5-shot group doesn't tell me what I want to know about "my" firearms. 2. I do use a good many 3-shot groups as one portion on my Load Development. Once I get to what appears to be a good Load, I will shift to "cumulative 1-shot groups" from a cold, clean, lightly greased barrel. This is time consuming to go through the cleaning process after each shot. But, that tells me what I'm really interested in - how close to where I'm aiming that the 1st shot will go. 3. Probably doesn't matter as long as the person qualifies his group by saying x.xx" for 5@300yds, x.xx" for 2@500yds, or whatever. Hey Steve, Darn nice groups for out-of-the-box Rugers. Speaks well for your Trigger Yanking. | |||
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quote: Darn nice? I say INCREDIBLE! These guns must be flukes right? I mean, this is pretty darn close to results from $3000 custom guns! Are you sure this was @ 200 yards? In fact, PLEASE tell us these were at 100 yards so we can all pull our heads out of our beer mugs! [ 03-08-2003, 03:16: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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sonofagun, please edit your quote in the above thread - I get into enough trouble w/ the things I actually say!! | |||
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Steve is a man of little words and....smaller groups. I hope he doesnt start posting the targets with out the fliers or there will be more custom rifle owners tear staining their keyboards......too late dont click on the target link. I'm just glad he doest put that "...would have measured .XXX" w/o the flier.." on his hand gun targets or I would be inclined to think he might be an alien...or some such non-human [ 03-07-2003, 22:22: Message edited by: Dave Jenkins ] | |||
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quote:OK, I'VE LOOKED AT ALL THESE TARGETS - MANY CUSTOM BR GUNS WOULD DO WELL TO SHOOT LIKE THIS. You sure these were shot at the ranges indicated? [ 03-08-2003, 21:05: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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quote:Hey, mouth, I don't have to justify or verify anything to you! And I don't give a rat's ass about "custon guns". If you wanna believe me fine, if you don't that is fine also, but don't even call me a liar again! | |||
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Some of my rifles will shoot groups like Steve's - only at 100 yards, not 200. Steve, your dedication to attaining accurate loads is inspirational. As a fellow Ruger shooter, it's nice to see you doing what some on this board think is impossible. I've always been satisfied with my groups for "hunting purposes" of course, but now you've started a bug in me to make my Rugers shoot better. I went out and bought MatchKings today in four different calibers (.243, .264, 7mm, and .308). I won't abandon my X bullets and Partitions for hunting, but now I've GOT to see just what some of the old gals can do with the right bullets for paper punching. It's been a long winter, I need something to keep me occupied for the next year or two or ten. | |||
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Excellent shooting Steve. I call that "finess" shooting. I have only come close to that kind of group a couple of times but I hope through the coming months to achieve that kind of accuracy. As for the custom rifles, I have known several Savage owners who could call their shots hit where they called them out past 200 yds. I believe that shooting is just like any other sport; if you practice, you will get better. Some guys require less practice than others (more talented), but most of us could improve our shooting skills. I think 5 round groups in hunting rifles is a fair measure of the shooter's ability, the rifle and loads may be far better than the shooter. Reproducing a good group over and over under varying conditions will build confidence better than anything I know of. BLR7 ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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