This was my first attempt at annealing.Room was totally dark,in the workshop at night.The only light was from the propane torch.When I sized the brass the neck and/or shoulder buldged.Some of the necks looked like they were run through a course-threaded die. Only had to heat for 4-5 seconds before the red appeared.The body never got hot enough to burn my fingers.

I was neck sizing with the Lee collet die.Brass is rem 30.06.Also,these had been loaded at least 10 times, probably more.Were they too hot or was the brass "worn out".Or maybe something else?

Take a lesson from Varmint Al........
http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm
I have modified his procedure by using simple wooden clothes pin then dropping into basin of water & this works for me.........r in s.

quote:

Some of the necks looked like they were run through a course-threaded die.

Well, annealing at any temp won't thread the necks. ??

Did you lube the necks before sizing? The heat burns the oil out of the brass, making it dry. The collet die will do in brass it doesn't like.

coarse thread die? Can you post a picture of this brass?
I would like to it.
Dave

quote:

Only had to heat for 4-5 seconds before the red appeared.

If you got them red, you ruined them. Simple as that. Red is up around 1100F, cartrdige brass is annealed at around 750F.

Yes you got them to hot...leave the lights on and watch the color....you want blue-ish black then get off the heat. Never red or orange.

I have finally learned that I don't need to do it in a dark room, etc...

I have gotten to where I count the seconds the neck is in the flame of my propane torch..

I do it for 10 seconds for a 223, 12 seconds for a 22.250 and 15 seconds for a 243 to 30/06

quote:

If you got them red, you ruined them. Simple as that. Red is up around 1100F, cartrdige brass is annealed at around 750F

Not according to Varmint Al. He states that you want them to get just a visible, dull red (750degrees)


"I do the annealing in a black dark place, like at night with the lights off or in a dark room with the door closed and no windows. I put the stick through the flash hole and, holding the stick, spin the case mouth in the flame while holding the center of the neck right at the tip of the blue center cone of the flame (at the location of the red dot in the picture). When the neck just becomes a visible dull red (about 750°F),"...........says Al


Why do you say this is incorrect?

Because dull red is above 750 deg. closer to 1100/1200 from my machinist handbook. Blue to straw is around 600 to 700.

quote:

The heat burns the oil out of the brass,

Oil IN brass???

quote:

If you got them red, you ruined them. Simple as that.

In what way are they ruined?

Hivelosity,the necks were crushed by the collet die in such a way that they had 2 buldges that looked like bolt threads.This happened on seven cases.All 100 cases are in the scrap heap now.I would post a picture,but I haven't the computer know-how to post one.

Win 69,I did not lube the cases as I was using a collet die.I haven't heard of lubing cases after annealing,even if I use a collet die.Would lubing have helped?In this situation,probably not.I got the cases red to orange hot!I have plenty of brass, so the ruined cases are no big deal.Dad picked them up at a site-in day a while back.Have well over 500 of them, ummm...I DID have over 500.I'll tone down the heat next time and give 'er another go.

quote:

Originally posted by prplbkrr:
Hivelosity,the necks were crushed by the collet die in such a way that they had 2 buldges that looked like bolt threads.This happened on seven cases.All 100 cases are in the scrap heap now.I would post a picture,but I haven't the computer know-how to post one........

This sounds alot like what happens when the fingers in the collet don't release all the way and you get crushed cases.

Take the die apart, clean and lube the fingers and forcing cone.

I can post pics for you if you want. Just e-mail them to me.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by prplbkrr:
...I'll tone down the heat next time and give 'er another go.

Hey prplbkrr, I hate to wade in to controversy , but I'd recommend you try a few things:
1. Do not do as many Cases while learning the process - 5-10 is plenty to learn on.
2. Do not "tone down the heat" if that means reducing the Flame Temperature. If however it means holding them in the Flame a shorter amount of time, then that sounds like a good idea.
3. Read the Varmint Al web site that rcamuglia mentioned.
-----

I prefer to Anneal Cases just as you were doing, hold the Case Head in my left hand and apply the Propane Torch with my right hand and in a darkened room. Then when I see the Case Mouth begin to turn Red, I let go of the Case and it drops into a bucket of water. Set them in the sun and when they are dry a wipe or two with a Scotch Brite Pad has them all slicked up.

I've also stood them in a pan of water, with no Primers in them and push them over into the water when the Case Mouth begins to turn Red. But, I don't like this method as well because occasionally a Case gets knocked over that has not had the Heat. Then you have to stop, retrieve that Case, re-set it upright and take another run at it.
-----

While I'm in this, I'd mentioned on the Big Game Board that I had "heard" from a buddy that John Barsness claimed in a magazine that a person can Anneal with a "Candle". Told the folks that trying to Anneal with a Candle was Full-of-Beans. Got all kinds of references as to Barsness' source of that information as coming from a guy with a PHD in Metalurgy from MIT, as if that would change reality.

Just to clear this colloquial fiasco up - both of them are Full-of-Beans - you can not Anneal a Case with a Candle. The Heat Transfer is waaaaaaay too slow.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

If you got them red, you ruined them. Simple as that.

In what way are they ruined?

The brass becomes too soft and losses its structural integrity. Shoulders collapse when seating bullets, neck tension goes to hell, no spring-back on firing and sizing, and/or case ruptures with allowble pressure at worst. And it isn't fixable, either.

quote:

Then when I see the Case Mouth begin to turn Red, I let go of the Case and it drops into a bucket of water.

Hot Core,

I believe that you and Varmint Al are on the money. Where I think some here have a differing opinion on how far to heat the cases has to do with how much light is in the room where they are doing the annealing. I believe that in a dark room a case that just starts to get a dull red during the annealing process must appear to be blue in a room where more light exists.

I will continue to anneal as Varmint Al and you do. The 250 cases I annealed to a dull red and immediately dunked in a small bowl of water are perfectly annealed, loaded beautifully with consistent neck tension that I have never experienced before, and shot the best groups of my life!

Properly done necks and just the top of the shoulders need to be 660-700 degrees .

A full proof method is TWO propane or map gas torches opposed at 170 degree angle fixed in place .

The flame tips should be about 1/4 -1/2 inch from meeting ( The Blue portion of the flame )

with a portable drill or any device capable of holding and turning a case while the neck is in those flames .

Flame Time is dependent on cartridge size and cleanliness of case . Practice on a few old cases .

My machine does a .223 in appx. 6 seconds as I have a variable timer similar too Ken Lights machine .

Before I built the machine I still did them with a portable drill and two torches, as it evenly heats

the neck and shoulder correctly . I also used a bucket with water in it and would drop them in after

annealing . NOT too arrest the annealing process but rather cushion the case neck as they become soft and

dent if you don't stand them up and allow to cool before knocking them over or dropping them on each other .




Unpolished annealed cases two factory two I did .

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Then when I see the Case Mouth begin to turn Red, I let go of the Case and it drops into a bucket of water.

Hot Core,

I believe that you and Varmint Al are on the money. Where I think some here have a differing opinion on how far to heat the cases has to do with how much light is in the room where they are doing the annealing. I believe that in a dark room a case that just starts to get a dull red during the annealing process must appear to be blue in a room where more light exists.

I will continue to anneal as Varmint Al and you do. The 250 cases I annealed to a dull red and immediately dunked in a small bowl of water are perfectly annealed, loaded beautifully with consistent neck tension that I have never experienced before, and shot the best groups of my life!

Well good for you.. But you ruined the cases if you got them red, orange or any other color in that heat range, you definatly over heated them.

The following is quoted from the NRA book Handloading -

"Most reloaders excessively heat the necks, causing formation of a large-grain brass structure, extreme softness, and lack of "spring" or ability to hold the bullets in the necks. This results from the usual advice, "Heat the case necks until red hot and then knock the cases over into water". While the necks so treated are indeed unlikely to crack, they may be so soft that they can be squeezed together between the fingers, which is a good way to judge their relative softness.
"Metallographers tell us that temperatures up to approximately 500º F. do very little to break down a hard, cold-worked brass structure. By the time the temperature reaches approximately 700º F., the cold-worked structure is gone entirely. A new, fine-grained structure exists with almost all internal stresses removed, making an ideal form of brass for case necks and shoulders. . .
"Further raising the temperature would only coarsen the grain structure, increasing the softness of the brass, lowering its resilience, and in no way improving its qualities. . .
"Actual "red hot" temperature varies depending on the observation conditions, particularly the lighting. But even when only barely visible in pitch darkness, brass has already been heated far beyond the grain refining stage and made unnecessarily soft."

Ya'll have fun now with the new info.

Very good "new info"

However, I think the degree of the description "red hot" can vary. I annealed and in the very second the neck started to become visibly dull red, I removed the case neck from the flame and, while it was still in the chuck on the cordless screwdriver, emmersed the case in a bowl of water. The time you state your cases are in the flame correspond to my experience as well, except I only use one torch and a cordless screwdriver. If you use 2, I would think that a .223 case spinning for 6 seconds would be annealed much more (twice the flame) than my .300WM cased for 6-8 seconds in 1 torch.

Al says this quenching causes the grain structure to form smaller crystals and is what you want.

In no way are my cases over-annealed and there is absolutely no possible way you can crush the case neck with your fingers. Bullets seat absolutely perfectly and don't cause any damage to the case.

I think that Varmint Al's background in engineering speaks for itself. If you take time to visit his site you will see that much of the information he shares requires education and experience far above the level of the average bear.....I trust him and will continue to do things as he does with absolutely no fear that it is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
... Where I think some here have a differing opinion on how far to heat the cases has to do with how much light is in the room where they are doing the annealing. I believe that in a dark room a case that just starts to get a dull red during the annealing process must appear to be blue in a room where more light exists. ...

Hey rcamuglia, That makes sense to me. I've always been able to "see" in the darkened room, so where I was doing it was/is not pitch dark black, but has a bit of light beneath the door or coming in a window at night. I just don't have a light on in the room and I normally do it at night.
-----

Hey Doc, Fine flicks. Looks like your Method works well too.
-----

Hey Rusty, Thanks for the info. Perhaps that is the temp mine reach and I just don't know it. Apparently there is a bit of variance on how hot the Case Necks need to get.

The nice thing about Annealing is it doesn't take long to "learn" how to do it.

Hot core ; I have a very close Finnish friend , so I asked him .

He knew nothing about it and asked some

of his friends . One had a relative who worked for Laupa and that's where I got the information from .

They use a commercial induction process which I'm not privileged to ,nor would it do me any good .

They also use a priority blend of alloy again which does me no good . But the information I received

was tried and true and has worked flawlessly since doing it . Temp is far more important than duration

if any of you would care to ask another source I'll provide the link .

I would also like to state at this time my machine turns and indexes many stations , so brass cools

down considerably before dropping into my water bucket which is HOT WATER by the way 180 degrees .

I must confess I'm not thoroughly convinced I need hot water but

it hasn't hurt anything either .

Annealing is a heat treatment in which a material is exposed to an elevated temperature for an extended time and then slowly cooled. Annealing heat treatments are largely characterized by induced microstructural changes which are ultimately responsible for altering the material's mechanical properties. The ultimate goal of this process is to reduce the hardness of the metal and improve its ductility.

Annealing specifically refers to the process of bringing the material to its softest possible point. A tempering process softens the metal but not to the full extent possible.

The degree of temper depends on the material, the maximum temperature reached and the length of the cool down time. Process or Stress Relief Annealing is used to negate the effects of cold work; that is, to soften and increase the ductility of a previously strain-hardened metal. Internal stresses may develop as a result of plastic deformation processes such as machining or grinding, non-uniform cooling in a welding or casting process, or a phase transformation. Distortion and warping may occur if the internal stresses are not removed. Annealing will eliminate these stresses when the part is heated to the recommended temperature, held there long enough, and slowly cooled to room temperature.

http://www.ameritherm.com/over...ad_poCFRZZbAodwxAzdQ

http://www.ameritherm.com/annealing_2_able.php

quote:

... how far to heat the cases has to do with how much light is in the room where they are doing the annealing. I believe that in a dark room a case that just starts to get a dull red during the annealing process must appear to be blue in a room where more light exists.

This is my thinking too. I look into the blackened case mout where there is no light from the flame and it is... um... 'blackened'.

I could not find anything on the 'net but my understanding is that a 'black body' shows 'cherry' red at 500C (1100F). It begins to show a dull red light sooner but how much I don't know.

I ended up with the 'dull red' because I found that colour change (of the brass) did not do the trick. (Or at least, that's how it seemed).

Rapid chilling in water also completes the annealing by halting crystal re-growth. (Maybe that's were I went wrong with heating to colour change).

And no-way is a candle goint to anneal anything! But I read sonewhere that it was not an illuminating candle that the man used but a 'plumbers candle'. (Whatever that might be! That would have to be hot enough to melt lead, no doubt, and to solder copper pipe).

There was absolutley nothing wrong with the brass after annealing. The die damaged the brass. The case head never got soft because prplbkrr's fingers never got hot.

quote:

This is my thinking too. I look into the blackened case mout where there is no light from the flame and it is... um... 'blackened'.

Hey 303,

I thought of this as I don't tumble and my case mouths are a little smokey. So, before I annealed I chucked the case in the holder and spun it on the power screwdriver while holding the case mouth with a Scotch Brite pad to clean it. I thought the filth might interfere with seeing the visible dull red at the correct moment. After I cleaned the neck with the scrub pad I immediately annealed..........

It also makes your cases look better!

Rusty Marlin is 100% correct.
The easiest method of annealing without destroying your brass is to use a "lazy Susan" with a dish of water on top that you spin as the flame heats the necks.
The best method of heating correctly is to watch the color as it heats, when it starts to show a rainbow of greens and blues as it passes from the shoulder to the body of the case, STOP and tip over into the pan of the water.
The necks should be a honey brown color, then into blue down the shoulder, and finally have rainbow effects down into the body no more than 1/4". A good example is factory 17Rem rounds, if you get them looking like that, you can't go wrong.
They should look like these:

There is a common misconception that the water hardens the brass, not so, it arrests the growth of the grain structure.
If you follow this method, you will never have brass that is over annealed and too soft for anything.
Cheers.
416RigbyHunter.

If any of you are having issues regarding color of brass , DON'T GO BY COLOR .

Use Tempilstik ; http://markingpendepot.com/Pro...empil/tempilstik.jpg




They make them in a Butt load of temp ranges 125 degrees and upwards 650-700-750 too 1600 .

Your torch flame a case with tempilstik on it and a watch or stop watch !.

If you do say five cases of every caliber case you reload for and average out

the times using the Tempilstik , you no longer need that stuff . As you now have proper time frame

for correct annealing temperatures . Use 2 uncleaned and 3 cleaned necks or any combination your

case are normally in , when you anneal them .

Note my Lapua cases are not the same color as 416RigbyHunter's cases !. Two of mine are Factory !.

It may be due to the fact his cases are cleaned or brass composition is slightly different from mine .

Quick cooling isn't necessary !.The point of annealing at proper temp. at neck and top of shoulder only ,

is to correct work Harding and minor crystalline restructuring . So rapid cooling does nothing !!!.

It makes no difference if you took a hot annealed case and set it back down on it's base and

let it cool too room temperature . Provided your not annealing the body of the case and when a case neck

is glowing red hot your doing just that , as the heat is transferred by conductance !!!!!!!.

Thanks Doc, for some sanity. Now where the hell is my candle...

quote:

I thought the filth might interfere with seeing the visible dull red at the correct moment.

RC, clean brass has a lower emissivity than dirty brass. The dirt will be at the same temperature as the brass so it won't interfere but rather, it will make the 'red glow' more visible. But apparently, that is actually too hot already.

Brownells sells Tempilaq that takes the quess work out of the process. Do a few and time it for future batches.
Brownells Tempilaq

quote:

But apparently, that is actually too hot already.

I don't think so and neither does Varmint Al.

The Hotter Brass becomes the more ductile it is ( Softer ) so what does that do for neck tension ??.

Ideally you want to duplicate factory brass conditions as close as possible RIGHT ?.

Other wise my bother to anneal just shoot em until they split .

I'm cheap !. I buy quality brass and load several times , then trim it and anneal it before sizing .

Generally I only set the shoulder back and neck size until I have to FL resize .

I'm telling it straight I've got well over 80 reloads on some 7mm RM cases !.

Yes and I've had a couple of head separations over the years . ( I don't use those when I hunt !)

I have a couple of boxes of original Winchester X from 1965 and I'm still using some of them !.

I don't load to proof my chambers however they do still sing and recoil is noticeable

yet manageable !.

Sorry to be so late wiyh a reply.I did check Varmint Al's website before I did my 1st annealing.I placed the case mouth at the tip of the most intense part of the flame.Let's say that the flame has 2 phases.A solid blue flame at the torch tip that extends about 1 1/2 inches,and a 2nd not-as-intense-flame that surrounds the solid blue flame.You with me here? OK,I placed the case at the tip of the inner solid blue flame.4-5 seconds tops.necks got red real fast.

Someone mentioned about lubing the collet die. I have Hornady one shot and a tube of imperial wax.I can't imagine I would use something like WD-40 or similar! what do you lube your "COLLET DIE" with,so that it won't crush your annealed cases.

The collet die needs to be disassembled and the collet lubed with a high-pressure grease where it contacts the die body during sizing. This is also a good time to deburr the collet.

Lube the brass itself (sizing lube) after it has been heated to keep it from grabbing the die.

Doc's posts read like the NRA articles 50 years ago. That is allot better than Varmint Al's website.

I have given up on all annealing.
I was not enjoying it.

quote:

Originally posted by prplbkrr:
....... Someone mentioned about lubing the collet die. I have Hornady one shot and a tube of imperial wax.I can't imagine I would use something like WD-40 or similar! what do you lube your "COLLET DIE" with,so that it won't crush your annealed cases.

Sorry for the confusion. You may be referring to my post on the cases that you described as "run through a course thread die".

I use Lee dies and when I was "learning" them I would occasionally get some cases that would "buckle". I learned that the case fingers were not releasing all the way and it would screw up the case. I lubed the fingers and forcing cone and everything was good after that.

It doesn't have anything to do with your annealing. It may be a separate situation.

Regardless of how soft your necks are, the Lee neck sizer should not buckle them, and that is the only thing I can think of that happened.

Take the sizer apart and clean, then use some lube, grease, one shot works, I use that, and put in on the surfaces where the fingers meet the forcing cone.

I just spray "One shot" in mine once in a while and I have not had any problems.

BTW, I anneal every 4 reloadings of my prairie dog shooting rounds. 204, 223 and 22-250. Through the years I have purchased batches of cases that I had to anneal after the first reloading as many of the necks split. Usually the factory brass will last the first four reloadings, but I have found exceptions to that opinion.

I learned annealing by starting in a dark room and practiced by getting some junk cases to get (just at the beginning) of turning red. I counted the number of seconds and then backed off two seconds so they would not get to the that stage. I rotate them while they heat also.

So far, many thousands of annealed cases have served me well using this method.

Jim

I should clarify also, that the need of tipping the cases over into the water is not necessary, I normally do not do this as the water in the dish is only to keep the annealing in the area of the neck and shoulder. The water level is kept at 1/2' below the shoulder/body juncture.
I have had 40+ loads with my 22-250Ackley cases using this technique, and the best results come when the case is allowed to cool in the air.
Cheers.
416RigbyHunter.

Posting these for prplbkrr.

I would have thought I would see some tell-tale discoloration as in 416 rigbys, or docs pics above.

Even over heating them, if possible, should have shown some color changes.

Regardless, the pics show the die collapsed the case. Lube the die. That problem solved.

Jim

quote:

OK,I placed the case at the tip of the inner solid blue flame.4-5 seconds tops.necks got red real fast.

Looking at the pictures (quite artistic actually) and from the above comment, I'd say the brass was too hot. True, the die did it and one can size soft necks without collapsing them but un-annealed brass won't do that - the shoulder would collapse instead. (Done that once or twice! I've done the bellowed neck thing too, only mine weren't as pretty). To see the 'red' through the bright blue part of the flame is way above 'the beginning of red' as seen inside a darkened neck.

quote:

The water level is kept at 1/2' below the shoulder/body juncture.

I hope you meant inch, 416RigbyHunter! I used the water depth to control the level of annealing. Keeping the water high enough to stop the annealing just past the shoulder/body juction calls for a lot of heat! I don't think tipping into the water is necessary - the brass cools too quickly for it to make much difference. And tipping them over wets the inside of the case - then one has to dry them! However, if the cases are not already standing in water, there could be good reason to drop 'em into water.