I often see reference to Dawn dishwashing detergent here for cleaning bullets or cases etc. Hasn't been available downunder but I recently saw some in a specialty hardware store. Which Dawn detergent are people referring to and what is special about it compared to other brand products. MSDS don't really help here as they are very vague.

quote:

Originally posted by Ozzie:
I often see reference to Dawn dishwashing detergent here for cleaning bullets or cases etc. Hasn't been available downunder but I recently saw some in a specialty hardware store. Which Dawn detergent are people referring to and what is special about it compared to other brand products. MSDS don't really help here as they are very vague.

Personally I never wanted to use something were my cases got wet due to the fact that you need to dry them. If you dont dry out the center your powder gets wet, or the primer misfires. Too much effort for little outcome or just for a shiny case. Unless I m proven wrong, that is just my opinion.

Dawn is a good degreaser but I don't think it's much different than another other dish liquid. I have seen references where people have said if you mix white vinegar with dish liquid it can brighten older cases. Don't know much other than that.

be careful with dish detergent.....it's can cause serious corrosion on all steel parts it touches and is not washed off.....I hartily recommend washing in gasoline or acetone if one wants a "degreaser"....and it evaporates completely or enough so that you don't have contamination problems.....I've been using a pint of gasoline to clean a lot of cases for a long time with no problems.

Usually do the acetone/mineral spirits/MEK thing for degreasing, avoid gasoline because of the unknown additives but specifically considering the Dawn (added to dilute vinegar like Kraky said) to try in an ultrasonic cleaner. Seems like any ammonia free dish washing liquid will work then.

I also use a 2-stage air compressor to blow cases dry....it'll sure work with soapy water as well but not everyone has a 175 PSI air ccompressor for the task.

Mix half vinegar and half water and soak the cases overnight, then dry thoroughly and tumble as usual. gets em really shiney just like a penny.

Hey Ozzie, You might have seen me mention using Dawn to wash Bullets in prior to Moly coating.

Some Bullets are prewashed at the factories before shipment to remove Forming Die Lubricant. Most are shipped with it dried onto the Bullets. And if you are going to apply Moly, you absolutely need to remove any oil, lube, or finger prints. Otherwise, the Moly will not be Peened onto the Jacket in a uniform manner.

There are two reasons I've recommended Dawn:
1.Procter & Gamble used Dawn to "save" Cincinnati, OH.

A good many years ago a trailer truck of rendered chicken fat(liquid) crashed into a bridge on I-75 going through Cincinnati. The Fire Department, Department of Transportation and doughnut-eaters tried everything they could think of - for three days - to get it off the sloped surface of the curve going through the bridge. Nothing they had worked.

They would think they had it clean and the first vehicle through the bridge would just slide to the low side every time.

Finally one of them thought to ask Procter & Gamble if they had anything to cut it. (P&G had huge facilities all along the river back then.) An emergency message was sent to P&G New Albany, IN(just across the river from Louisville, KY) from the P&G Cincinnati plant. They responded that they were sure P&G had just what they needed.

A guy was helicoptered and police escorted to Cincinnati with a special box.

He gets out of the doughnut-eater car, snaps the top open on a bottle of Dawn and tells them to give it a couple of minutes. When they hosed it down, the chicken fat was off the bridge surface and in the ditch.

The Legend of how well Dawn would cut through grease was clearly demonstrated and that portion of I-75 re-opened.

2. Being aware of the above story, when I noticed Measling and Orange Peel looking results with some bullets I was attempting to Moly coat, Dawn was the obvious choice. I used it, and it removed the lubricant. So I know first-hand it works.

Other soaps might work just as well as Dawn, but I've not bothered to try others. So, that is why I specifically mention Dawn for removing Forming Die Lubricant - I know it works.

The Blue Dawn Legend is alive and well.
-----

I've not used it to clean Cases, so I don't know what it would do there.

Best of luck with the Fires.

quote:

Originally posted by Steel Slinger:
Mix half vinegar and half water and soak the cases overnight, then dry thoroughly and tumble as usual. gets em really shiney just like a penny.

More like 1 part vinegar to 4 parts water, and a 15 minute soak, followed by a hot water rinse

When I shot BP, all of my cases were washed out with Dawn and plain hot water. They were then rinsed in hot water. While doing this, I preheated the oven to 350 and after the rinse, the cases were placed in the shut off oven for 5 min. They came out clean & dry. Never even considered anything else but Dawn. My main concern was the elimination of BP residue since atmospheric moisture combined with the residue could ruin cases. If I wanted them bright & shiny, I tumbled them.
Bear in Fairbanks

Ozzie
one of us

Posted 17 February 2009 03:19
I often see reference to Dawn dishwashing detergent here for cleaning bullets or cases etc. Hasn't been available downunder but I recently saw some in a specialty hardware store. Which Dawn detergent are people referring to and what is special about it compared to other brand products. MSDS don't really help here as they are very vague.

Posts: 98 | Registered: 21 May 2005 Reply With Quote

People use the strangest things to do whatever it is their doing !.

Hillbilly's don't know no bedder . Washing cases with the exception given too BP cases

is not very bright in my book . Now I've done it , even used Dawn myself . I've used ultrasonic cleaner

and probably nearly every concoction known to mankind .

However I only used it to clean " Absolutely filthy " range pickup or donated cases which had been left

in bog or mire for eons . At least they looked like it !.

For cleaning cases , simply remove spent primers and tumble or vibratory tumbler with proper media

will do an outstanding job .

If you need them to shine like jewelry , then add some of these polishing solutions too your

media every now and again . Two of my personal favorite are 25% of the first one and 75%

of the second one . About two tablespoons or 30 cc's per media tumbler works real nice .

If you wish you can add more although my brass never gets that nasty after initial cleaning .

I use BoeShield T-9 to lube and protect my cases as it leaves a wonderfully light wax residual

on the cases and in NO WAY interferes with chambering or extraction of cartridges .

These good people have done all the research and formulation for you , if there was anything better

I would Know about it !.


http://www.shop3m.com/60980023323.html


http://solutions.3m.com/wps/po...NLZ4QDglCGBV39Q8P4bl

Hot Core, probably was your posts I was referring to. I've used a variety of petroleum based solvents for cleaning bullets prior to moly coating but might give the Dawn or equivalent a try instead to reduce my exposure to the Nasties. I make sure they are dry by using a heat gun anyway so that doesn't involve more steps.
Thanks for your concern re the fires. Still burning and expected to continue for a few more weeks in isolated areas of the state.Official toll 200 and rising, scores still missing. Air still very acrid throughout the state. The earlier fires, that is the "ordinary" ones came within 20 Km of my farm but didn't really threaten it. The ones you are hearing about were exceptional. There is a thread about it on the Australian & NZ hunting section of AR. About 100 US volunteer firefighters in Victoria giving our blokes a break. So "Good Onya Yanks".

Doc224/375; usually use the vibratory tumbler with whatever car polishing compound on hand with very satisfactory results except for crappy cleaning of primer pockets. Wanted to thoroughly clean up some once fired cases that I was loading with premium projectiles and then might be put away for a lengthy period of time. Thought that might prolong case life as I have found that some of my reloads of about 20 years ago are failing, mostly with cracked necks, but seemingly more brittle in general. I've seen you recommend Boeshield before and it seems a good product but it's unavailable here.

Doc22/375, you're the Chemistry PhD. Is there any good reason that non caustic oven cleaner which uses monoethanolamine as the active ingredient can't be used as a foaming bore cleaner. Checking out the MSDS of some of the gun specific foaming cleaners suggests most of them have the same or similar ethanolamines as their main ingredient or is it the secret "herbs and spices" that makes the difference.Just being a cheapskate given that foaming bore cleaners are becoming available downunder albeit at about 20X the unit price. Thanks. I know it's in the wrong forum just thought you would find it here.

Dawn is a common sulfated oil. Palm olive, Palm,, or any other dish washing soap will work just fine. They are all designed to "Degrease"

quote:

Originally posted by Ozzie:
Usually do the acetone/mineral spirits/MEK thing for degreasing, avoid gasoline because of the unknown additives ,,

This is a liver destorying cancer feeding combo - DO NOT use it

hot water and a couple DROPS of soap works wonders

quote:

Originally posted by Ozzie:
... I've used a variety of petroleum based solvents for cleaning bullets prior to moly coating but might give the Dawn or equivalent a try instead to reduce my exposure to the Nasties. I make sure they are dry by using a heat gun anyway so that doesn't involve more steps....

Hey Ozzie, Gotta agree with Jeff that the MEK stuff is some bad stuff. Works too well, because it attacks the user too.

I pour the Bullets into HOT water with the Dawn and let it set for 10min or so. Then go swirl it around and wait. Do that a couple of times and rinse in a collander with more HOT water.

Then out in the sun to dry on a towel. Can't touch the Bullets with bare hands at any point, or there will be oil transfer back onto the Bullet. Then they take the Moly real well for me.

Haven't tried the heat gun, but thanks for mentioning it. I do have days when I'd like to do some when the sun is hidden by clouds.
-----

Our News(?) claims some of your fires are due to arson. Just hard to believe anyone could be that mentally off. If they catch the fool, I do hope they decide to "burn" him alive. Our woosie Cruel and Unusual Punishment Law would prevent it. But it seems to me it would not be Cruel to "burn alive" an Arsonist. Let the punishment fit the crime.

Anyway, best of luck to all you folks down-under with those fires.

Don't use acetone/mineral spirits/MEK together but as alternatives. Not that it would really matter in terms of toxicology. MEK has not been shown to cause cancer and any liver changes are minor and only reported in high dose ingestion experiments. Does cause fetal abnormalities in rats in high doses. The advantage MEK has over acetone is that it is probably a little less flammable (but still highly so). Of the three solvents it is actually the mineral spirits I find that irritates me the most. And I use them only outdoors and am asking questions about detergents to reduce exposure even more. Gasoline is bad, bad, bad. Check out some of the ingredients.
The heat gun works really well to dry cases and bullets but will melt plastic tips (V Max etc) if not careful.
Regarding the fires, still burning and the weather is getting warmer again making control harder. They have arrested and charged a guy with arson and causing multiple deaths. Despite this others have been caught since. The entire Marysville area has been closed off as a crime scene because they believe those were deliberately lit also.

quote:

Gasoline is bad, bad, bad.

It is said to contain toluene. It is not oil free either.

quote:

... be careful with dish detergent.....it's can cause serious corrosion on all steel parts ...

This may be due to it being such a good de-greaser - it leaves the bare steel unprotected. It's also good at loosening rust. Whenever my fishing plyers got rust jammed, I'd soak them in hot dishwash/water and this would loosen the rust right out and free the things. But failure to remove all the detergent and water and re-oil would result in rapid re-rusting!

I have worked for a major oil refinery and specifically on the MEK Unit, which correctly names is the DeOiling/DeWaxing Unit. Our job was to remove the paraffin from the oil. The solvent we used for this was MEK and this was used in conjunction with a vacuum filter system on a very large scale. MEK is one of the very few solvents that will dissolve paraffin. This may appeal to reloader who want to remove wax sizing lubes from their cases such as the Imperial brand.

I was concerned about what MEK might cause in the human body and researched it. Ozzie is right, it hasn't shown to cause cancer and is eventually eliminated from the liver through waste. As an informal study I've kept close contact with fellow workers that have worked along with me on the MEK Unit with over 25 or more years of service and only one had gotten cancer and that was prostrate cancer. None so far have died from cancer in that group. We were told that Benzene and Toluene were the bad boys. If you remember when manufacturers changed the ingredient in hobby plastic model gule, such as the old Testers, Toluene was one of the ingredients they removed.

I didn't see a lot of difference between Toluene and MEK in which was more flammable. All the fires we had on the MEK unit were from MEK. We had lots of other flammable solvents on the unit in addition to flammable gases like propane.

From another job at a chemical plant I'll tell you a solvent to stay away from (and thank god it's not something you can buy at the hardware store) and that is CS2..Carbon Disulfide. This stuff attacks the central nervous system and most common result of it are heart attacks. Out of 20 deaths of fellow workers in the chemical plant that used it, 18 died from heart attacks.

Be very careful of any solvent and read up on it before using it for anything. Dawn dish soap sounds like the most safe bet.

Hey Starmetal, Sure appreciate the info on the MEK. Makes me feel better about having used it in the past as a Cleaner at some of the places I worked.

Best of luck to you all.

Ozzie
one of us

Posted 18 February 2009 12:41 Hide Post
Doc22/375, you're the Chemistry PhD. Is there any good reason that non caustic oven cleaner which uses monoethanolamine as the active ingredient can't be used as a foaming bore cleaner. Checking out the MSDS of some of the gun specific foaming cleaners suggests most of them have the same or similar ethanolamines as their main ingredient or is it the secret "herbs and spices" that makes the difference.Just being a cheapskate given that foaming bore cleaners are becoming available downunder albeit at about 20X the unit price. Thanks. I know it's in the wrong forum just thought you would find it here.

Yes Ozzie !. It's not designed to remove copper or lead powder residue !.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanolamine

It's primary function in oven cleaner is a de greasing agent it being of the groups of phospholipids .

pH-control amine

Ethanolamine is often used for alkalinization of water in steam cycles of power plants, including nuclear power plants with pressurized water reactors. This alkalinization is performed to control corrosion of metal components. ETA (or sometimes a similar organic amine, e.g., morpholine) is selected because it does not accumulate in steam generators (boilers) and crevices due to its volatility, but rather distributes relatively uniformly throughout the entire steam cycle. In such application, ETA is a key ingredient of so-called "all-volatile treatment" of water (AVT).


Ozzie what is it your attempting to do or what are you looking for ?. Sorry I didn't read your other

posting .

Yes Boeshield works wonders on tarnish protection also SUPER on case lubing .

Don't feel alone on loss of case necks or cases for prolonged storage IT HAPPENS !.

I know of no SURE way to keep brass at a pliable or annealed state other than re annealing for prolonged

periods of storage .Other than vacuum packing or inert gas packing as this retards brass hardening

for loaded AMMO .


My fellow Reloaders PLEASE LISTEN TO ME ON USING SOLVENTS ! Any of the above mentioned

Lacquer Acetone MEK are VERY DANGEROUS TOO SKIN EXPOSURE They De Fat your tissues if proper

gloves or precautions are not taken . They can also migrate AND DO into the blood stream

when I and other Composite engineers workers had physicals , we always were checked for Ketone migration

of Blood Urine and Liver !. WHY USE IT !!!.

If your simply wanting to clean cases use a vibratory tumbler add Baking soda too your media

for really UGLY NASTY BRASS !. Works dry , quickly and cleanly !. Then polish as per my initial post .

A clean dry cotton rag towel wipes case lubes off easily . For tarnish protection of the brass and ease

of future cleaning . Use any Carnuba based wax simply rub it into a soft rag really work it in .

Then wipe your loaded cartridges with it lightly and put them into their boxes .

They stay like factory new for years by simply doing that . I use Military Spec cleaning solvent at about

a dollar a pint . I can't even make the stuff that cheap . We all have been bamboozled into the

" Latest Greatest Firearms Cleaning solutions " for 10 times the price of any normal gun cleaner !.

I have no rust no pits or copper not even lead residue in my rifles ( other than Old Military Rifles )

It is nothing more than advertising hype designed to separate YOU from your MONEY !.

I've been making my wife's shampoo for 28 years now , it cost me less than $0.30 per quart !.

She took it too her salon and her hairdresser now wants me to make theirs . Because the stuff they purchase

wholesale runs about $ 18.50 a pint or Qt. depending on brand !.

The Hair in which we see is protein Dead no tubular nucleus !. So what all these limp wristed idiots

and Naivete women are drawn to is HYPE SALES !. You can coat hair but it won't infuse anthing so when you

hear that crap , you will know shineola !.



Taking nutrients from the dermal papilla, the hair bulb generates new hair cells. As these cells move up through the hair root, they mature through a process called keratinization, fill with fibrous protein and lose their . When the cell loses its nucleus it is no longer alive. By the time the hair emerges from the skin it is merely fiber made of keratinized proteins.

Doc224/375; Thanks for the information. I was asking about the oven cleaner because I thought that the foaming bore cleaners had the same active ingredient. I can't find a MSDS at present and I will have to wait and recheck the label on Wipe-Out when I next go to the gunshop.I do seem to recall though that one of the ethanolamines was present.

You mention that you use Milspec bore cleaners. My understanding is that Ed's Red is a homemade version of that from Hatchers notebook and if so, then solvents like acetone, kerosene and Stoddards/mineral spirits or the like are the main solvents present anyway.

Thanks for the info starmetal. (And warnings).

quote:

Don't feel alone on loss of case necks or cases for prolonged storage IT HAPPENS !.

It's age hardening. When in doubt, disassemble, anneal and reload.

Finally found a can of foaming bore cleaner, A$32.00 for a little can and yes, active ingredient is monoethanolamine, the same as my $2.00 big can of generic non caustic oven cleaner. I guess it must be a secret herbs and spices (the propriety secret ingredient not listed in the MSDS) that make it better.

quote:

MEK has not been shown to cause cancer and any liver changes are minor and only reported in high dose ingestion experiments

This is irrelevant but I wonder about MEK and some other chemicals that have been declared cancerous. I often wonder, not witnessing the tests, whether the cancer results are true or political.

I shoot cases that look terrible , I never tumble them due to the lead dust, and never wash them either. I just wipe the grit and grime off of 'em with a cloth so none of that crap gets into the rifle chamber, and go shoot!!!

Some of you are way to anel. Were talking brass

If I worried like some of you over this and that I would give up guns period and lock myself into a bubble.

quote:

I often see reference to Dawn dishwashing detergent here for cleaning bullets or cases etc

As some of these posts suggest, cleaning brass isn't a critical science. Lots of things work, as we would expect perhaps?

The points are (1) remove any residual oils from lubes or hands. Detergents do that, so does some chemicals like MEK, acetone, etc. But, the petroleum solvents don't do much for carbon deposits inside the cases and primer pockets nor do they remove any corrosion on the brass. So, (2) loosening, if not removing the carbon and corrosion is best done by a mild acid like vinegar. The exact mix and time of soading isn't critical. And vinegar also removes any stray case or bullet lube quite well.

My vote goes to vinegar and water for heavy duty case cleaning, followed by a good rinse and a few days in the sun to completely dry internally.

Oven cleaners of any kind also attack oils but it's far stonger than need be and likely to do harm to the user. Let a droplet of that stuff get in your eyes and you will regret it, immediately and perhaps for a LOONG time! NO, NO, NO!