I have been PFLRing my 30-06 for the last two loads and some of the cases are splitting etc. (No worries as the brass has been loaded 8-10+ times)
I just got a batch of new brass and got to thinking.
Should I load these up and just shoot them, just to get them sized to where my old brass was?
I figure the shoulder is not in the same place, the body may/may not be the same size, case length is probably not the same, etc.

Am I gonna have to load up 200 plinker loads?

What do you guys do?

Anyone?

with New brass I go through it and run it through a fl die so that its uniform trim to length debur in and out.
Clean the primer holes.
load and shoot.
in most cases the new brass shoots as good as the fire formed cases..

Where in farmont are you from?
I will be down at Boothville the 1st week of deer gun season.

Thanks for the reply... I've never loaded new brass. All my loads have been in fire formed and latest worked up accuracy loads have been all PFLR fireformed.

Boothsville is just across a couple hills from me (maybe 5 road miles, less walking miles). If you can see the two big water tanks from Rt 73 near the interstate, I'm just below them.
Actually I'll be above them during deer season...

Every one will tell you something different… Keep in mind I am not a bench rest shooter

New Brass
FL Size
Trim to Min Length
Deburr and Chamfer
Uniform Primer Pockets
DeBurr Flash holes
For non Nickel Plated Brass I will uniform Neck Thickness
Tumble
Weigh & Sort in .5 Gr Lots


Have fun… be safe

Hey CharlieHo, I like to Fire Form just a couple of "Sets of Cases" at a time. Each Set might have 9-18 Cases. Then when one Set is rotated into actual "use", another Set is rotated in for Fire Forming. I just don't do 200 at a time though, because I don't take that many shots while Hunting.

I P-FLR the Cases, load up a medium strength Load, use the least expensive Bullets I can find and Seat them to be about 0.010" Into-the-Lands" and do some Off-Hand practice.

If you choose not to Fire Form the Cases, you might(or might not) have a problem with Insipient Case Head Separations(ICHS) after a few reloads. It just depends on how well your "new Cases" match up with the Chamber Dimensions. If the Chamber is cut a bit long and the Cases are on the short side, then ICHS is a good probability.

Then it is a good idea to check the inside of the Cases with the old "L-shaped Feeler Gauge" for the groove at the Pressure Ring.

Best of luck to you.

HC Loading up a mild load and fireforming is pretty much what I had already decided to do with (oddly enough) about 40 cases.
I do plan on running the brass through my die previously set to PFLR first. However, should I wait until AFTER the FF shot and subsequent PFLR to trim?

I do. But I make sure that Lot of Cases stays together.

Nothing wrong with doing it a different way though. You have to do what works the best for you.

Thanks a bunch HC. I really value your, and everyone else's, opinion.

Now to find some cheap (HAH!) bullets.....

quote:

Originally posted by CharlieHo:
...Now to find some cheap (HAH!) bullets.....

Hey CharlieHo, I don't know where you could find any cheap 200gr bullets. Maybe at one of the "Seconds Shops".

But, I've had real good luck using 150gr and 165gr Rem PSPs for Fire Forming. Sometimes they are so accurate that they have me scratching my head. Then the next Lot of them might double the group sizes.

Had a buddy give me some 147gr FMJ bullets made by FN-FAL that he got from Widener's and they are really inexpensive, plus more accurate than any FMJ that I've used in a very long time.

If the throat in your rifle is real long, you could always "Reverse" any of the above bullets so they would kiss-the-lands for the Fire Forming. But, in my rifles they will all reach the Lands when Seated properly.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
If the throat in your rifle is real long, you could always "Reverse" any of the above bullets so they would kiss-the-lands

What do you mean by "reverse"? Seating the bullets in the case backwards?
I can easily reach the lands with my 165 GKs. not sure about my 150's. I thought about shooting them (150's) since I rarely load them anymore. Might just have to load them up and go looking for some groundhogs, or frogs, or muskrats, or crows, or milkjugs.... well, you get the picture

I must be lazy....or my guns arent' fussy. Take new brass.....plunge them over a lyman M die to straighten out the case neck. Do an inside chamfer....polish inside of neck with a bore brush on a drill......load, shoot....very accurate in every way I can think of.
If factory ammo can be made to shoot 1/2" groups at factory dimensions (Ie black hills) and we as reloaders can pick our guns favorite powder, bullet, seating depth.....why wouldn't we be more accurate than that????????
Alot of people love to jump through lots of extra hoops with brass prep.....I don't see the need for any normal hunting tool.

Rem soft point

This is what I use for fire forming, or informal practice. They would be a good bullet for whitetails also.

quote:

Originally posted by CharlieHo:
...What do you mean by "reverse"? Seating the bullets in the case backwards?...

Yes, sometimes a bullet is just too short to be able to reach the Lands. And that same bullet "might" be able to reach the Lands if it is Reversed in the Case.

But as long as your 150s and 165s reach the Lands, then you don't have to concern yourself with it at all. Just Fire Form with them and enjoy the shooting. And if you "seldom use" the 150s, they sound like perfect candidates for the task.

All the things you mentioned make excellent Targets.

HC... one more question and I'll quit pestering you on the subject. When you said a "medium strength" load, I assume you mean one that is still above minimum recommended loads in my manuals? The 0.010" 'into the lands' has me just slightly concerned here and wanted to clarify...

Hey CharlieHo, I can see where that would raise a question.

I have all my Hunting Loads developed for a SAFE MAX level unique to my specific components and firearms. I'm guessing you already know where your "SAFE MAX" is for your rifle and components, if not, then we need to begin a bit farther back in the Load Development process. So, if you know that you are below a SAFE MAX with your normal Hunting Load, this applies. If not, let me know and we will back up in the process a bit.

Meanwhile, if you do, lets say for grins your SAFE MAX is 50gr of powder. Then I'd suggest doing the Fire Forming with 47-48gr(about a 5% reduction) of that Powder, using the same other components.
---

I see discussions from time to time about Pressure being "Increased" when bullets are Seated to Kiss-the-Lands. And some claim it doesn't matter. But I can see a bit of a Pressure Increase using the old faithful, time proven Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE) when I've Seated bullets either "Into" or just Kissing-the-Lands, as we do in Fire Forming.

Sooooo...., the recommendation to use a medium level Load(just slightly reduced) is simply a precautionary note based on the way I reload for a SAFE MAX level.

And it will still be enough Pressure to Fire Form the cases.

That said, sometimes it takes a couple of firings for the Shoulder to completely form to it's final shape. Things like an Ackley Improved chamber have a very sharp corner and sometimes it just takes a couple of firings to get it all square.
---

This is not the "only way" to go about doing Fire Forming. Lots of folks use methods they feel are fine and get excellent case life.

If you look back, "kraky" mentioned he doesn't bother Fire Forming. If he was getting very short case life, he might change his mind. So, whatever kraky is doing is working well for him.

I just do it out of habit from years of Fire Forming. Maybe I don't need to, but I really like a long case life with a reduced opportunity for Insipient Case Head Separations. So I stick with my old methods.

Best of luck to you.
---

You are in no way "pestering".

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I'm guessing you already know where your "SAFE MAX" is for your rifle and components,

You are in no way "pestering".

Actually I don't know where my max load is, as I don't think I've reached it yet... I have reached a level of accuracy I am happy with and see no need to further change anything that would increase pressure.

That said, I will just back off a bit and go about it without worries...

I'm so glad I'm not a pest

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CharlieHo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hot Core:


That said, I will just back off a bit and go about it without worries...[/QUOT]

That'll work. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by CharlieHo:
...What do you mean by "reverse"? Seating the bullets in the case backwards?...

Yes, sometimes a bullet is just too short to be able to reach the Lands. And that same bullet "might" be able to reach the Lands if it is Reversed in the Case....

I got a nice PM from a buddy about this. He believes that reversing the Bullet will not help it reach the Lands "if" it won't reach them when Seated properly.

I will agree with him that it won't work in all situations, and I should have mentioned that.

As you think through the situation, it does seem to make good rational sense that if the Bullet's "Ogive" can't reach the Lands, without falling out of the Case Mouth, then reversing it would make no difference.

But, I believe it has to do with the actual "Lead design angle" of the Lands, the specific distance to the beginning of the Lead and the specific bullet being used. Needless to say a Flat Base Bullet will work better for this situation than will Boat Tail designs.

I do agree though, reversing the Bullet will not work 100% of the time.

I dont understand the fascination with seating the bullet into the lands, on both of my varmint rifles i had to stay at least .020 out of the lands to get them to shoot to their potential. Some rifles just dont like them loaded that long.

It's been an "amazing" chat. We've gone from should I just shoot some bullets to loading them backwards. COOL!!

quote:

Originally posted by Rich S:
I dont understand the fascination with seating the bullet into the lands, on both of my varmint rifles i had to stay at least .020 out of the lands to get them to shoot to their potential. Some rifles just dont like them loaded that long.

Hey Rich, CharlieHo and I are talking about "Fire Forming" the case so there is little or no Case Stretching at the Pressure Ring "on the Initial Firing".

With the Bullets Seated "Into the Lands", that helps keep the Case from being shoved forward by the Firing Pin, the front portion of the Case gripping the Chamber and then having the Case stretch back at the Pressure Ring.

He could also Neck-Up those 30-06 cases with a 338 Expander and then P-FLR the Case in his regular 30-06 Die. That for sure will keep the Case from slipping forward during the Initial Firing.

Lots of good ways to prevent Insipient Case Head Separations, or don't worry about it at all.
---

By the way, I've never had the Reversed Bullets shoot worth a clinton.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

As you think through the situation, it does seem to make good rational sense that if the Bullet's "Ogive" can't reach the Lands, without falling out of the Case Mouth, then reversing it would make no difference.

I actually thought about that quite a bit after you mentioned it, and even discussed it briefly with a co-worker. The only way I believe it would actually work is the neck would be sized slightly smaller than the bore, in turn gripping the ogive, but less than normal grip of the bullet seated regularly.
I don't believe I'll have to worry about it anyway, at least not with this particular rifle...

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Rich S:
I dont understand the fascination with seating the bullet into the lands, on both of my varmint rifles i had to stay at least .020 out of the lands to get them to shoot to their potential. Some rifles just dont like them loaded that long.

Hey Rich, CharlieHo and I are talking about "Fire Forming" the case so there is little or no Case Stretching at the Pressure Ring "on the Initial Firing".

With the Bullets Seated "Into the Lands", that helps keep the Case from being shoved forward by the Firing Pin, the front portion of the Case gripping the Chamber and then having the Case stretch back at the Pressure Ring.

He could also Neck-Up those 30-06 cases with a 338 Expander and then P-FLR the Case in his regular 30-06 Die. That for sure will keep the Case from slipping forward during the Initial Firing.

Lots of good ways to prevent Insipient Case Head Separations, or don't worry about it at all.
---

By the way, I've never had the Reversed Bullets shoot worth a clinton.

Gotya. Nevermind.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich S:
I dont understand the fascination with seating the bullet into the lands, on both of my varmint rifles i had to stay at least .020 out of the lands to get them to shoot to their potential. Some rifles just dont like them loaded that long.

Rich, this is strictly a discussion about whether there's a need to fireform new brass. As such, the best method to make for long case life, is to seat the bullet into the rifling to take all the slop out of the shell in the chamber. To be SURE the case head stays back against the bolt face during the firing process. This assure the case don't stretch in the critical web area.

New brass is made to SAMI specs, meaning it COULD be too short for your chamber. When seating a bullet to normal COL lengths, this means the shell can move forward, or backwards a tiny amount. When the firing pin strikes the primer, it drives the entire shell forward against the shoulder in the chamber. When the powder ignites and builds pressure, the case walls grip the chamber, the unsuported case head then moves back against the bolt face. This stretchs the critical web area of the case, thinning it, the beginning of incipiant case head seperation. Loading into the lands avoids this.

Wow1 No I didn't copy hotcores post, we were writing at the same time, he's just a faster huntandpecker than I.

Hey grizz, You sure could have saved me some whamming if you had been a bit quicker.