Hi Guys Im loading 38spl with a local powder MS200 which I believe is very similar to Red Dot. How low a charge can one load into a 38spl case without the risk of detonation or other pressure issues if any?

I recently had the pleasure of using my Uncles old 4inch barreled Taurus revolver and now we have a bucketful of cases to load I really enjoyed the Taurus which is a Model 80, nearly forgot how much fun a revolver can be!

Thanks and regards

you need to worry about getting bullet stuck in a squib

45 years ago I loaded 130 gr SWCs cast of wheel weights from a Lee mold ahead of 2.0 gr Bullseye. So slow I could see them in flight.....well, I was a teenager. Even at that age, it occurred to me one might get stuck in my 6" Smith M-28 barrel.

Today I would not go below 2.5 gr Bullseye or RD with lead SWCs or RNs. And 2.7 gr is probably a more sensible minimum for those.

A lead HBWC seated flush reduces effective capacity, increasing safety factor. Hodgdon website lists a 700X starting charge of 2.0 gr with a 148 gr HBWC. 700X approximates RD and Bullseye in burn rate.

No experience with MS200.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
you need to worry about getting bullet stuck in a squib

If that is all I need to worry about and nothing else then Im quite happy. I fire the gun only in single action when testing loads and will certainly notice if that happens. I want to load light fun loads to plink with.
Thank you for your reply

In my 7½" Colt SAA 45LC i have gone to about 200fps.
That is a 255gr Lee bullet atop 1.2grain TrailBoss.

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:
In my 7½" Colt SAA 45LC i have gone to about 200fps.
That is a 255gr Lee bullet atop 1.2grain TrailBoss.

I am unfamiliar with Trailboss , did you need to use a filler at all?

I have shot them down to 500fps.

Two grs of a very fast powder seems to be a very standard load with out any problems.

Bullseye, reddot, greendot ect.

I came across 13000 148gr WC's for scrap price.

I am loading 3gr of reddot as that is what my progressive is set up for just over 800fps.

Never tried trailboss but it sounds like it should work also.

But I have a couple kegs of redot so I am using that.

I loaded 3gr MS200 and a 150gr swc and I wont even bother going any lower. Im happy with the results but did not Chrony the loads. There were a few unburned powder flakes in the case so I may increase a half a grain and leave it there but so far so good! Thanks for all the help.

I've shot thousands of .38's with 2.5 to 4gr Red Dot.

Fact is, one of best things I ever did was load cast 115gr RN's in '06 with 3.5gr Red Dot. That's one of the finest ways to teach women and kids how to shoot the big guns without recoil hurting them. Mighty good training.

I was given a FULL 5 gal bucket of rejected commercial reloads by a guy that was partner in the business. He moved back to Wis and didn't want to haul them back again.

I shot the one's that would fire in my K-38 6". Just about every cylinder full had at least one squib that stuck in the bore. I used the starter rod for a muzzle loader to knock 'em out with. Mighty fine trigger control training. There was a great many that didn't have any powder at all, and others with just a very little bit.

There was so many of these I shared with others at the indoor range. I got the brass back. Something like 6000 rounds of that "junk".

There was 8 different powders and hard telling how many various bullets. I weighed each different powder til I found none had more than 5 gr. Then I just dumped 'em all in a jar and shook it up. Reloaded 4gr of the mixture with cast bullets. Seemed just about perfect for plinking.

George

quote:

I shot the one's that would fire in my K-38 6". Just about every cylinder full had at least one squib that stuck in the bore. I used the starter rod for a muzzle loader to knock 'em out with

After I brought my first progressive reloader. I was busy cranking out 9mm. Having a great time.

I then looked up and saw the powder hopper empty OPPs.

I set that container of reloads aside and kept a brass rod handy while shooting them.

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
I've shot thousands of .38's with 2.5 to 4gr Red Dot.

Fact is, one of best things I ever did was load cast 115gr RN's in '06 with 3.5gr Red Dot. That's one of the finest ways to teach women and kids how to shoot the big guns without recoil hurting them. Mighty good training.

I was given a FULL 5 gal bucket of rejected commercial reloads by a guy that was partner in the business. He moved back to Wis and didn't want to haul them back again.

I shot the one's that would fire in my K-38 6". Just about every cylinder full had at least one squib that stuck in the bore. I used the starter rod for a muzzle loader to knock 'em out with. Mighty fine trigger control training. There was a great many that didn't have any powder at all, and others with just a very little bit.

There was so many of these I shared with others at the indoor range. I got the brass back. Something like 6000 rounds of that "junk".

There was 8 different powders and hard telling how many various bullets. I weighed each different powder til I found none had more than 5 gr. Then I just dumped 'em all in a jar and shook it up. Reloaded 4gr of the mixture with cast bullets. Seemed just about perfect for plinking.

George

Now that sounds like loads of fun! Thank you for sharing.

lal:

Thank you sir.

I left part of that out I see reading it again now.

Re: At first I was going to pull them down and reload. After about 300 or so I saw no dent in the bucket full yet. That's when I decided to just shoot the one's that would and tinker with the rest. At first, I kept each powder separated from the others and weighed most to make sure what they had in them.

It got to be quite an ordeal.

At least half dozen shooters shared in the education. I made sure everyone knew to "fire one shot at a time and make sure it fired out the bore before the next shot". No one screwed up, amazing for once folks listened.

George

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
lal:

Thank you sir.

I left part of that out I see reading it again now.

Re: At first I was going to pull them down and reload. After about 300 or so I saw no dent in the bucket full yet. That's when I decided to just shoot the one's that would and tinker with the rest. At first, I kept each powder separated from the others and weighed most to make sure what they had in them.

It got to be quite an ordeal.

At least half dozen shooters shared in the education. I made sure everyone knew to "fire one shot at a time and make sure it fired out the bore before the next shot". No one screwed up, amazing for once folks listened.

George

Thanks George I will not allow anyone else to use this ammo that Im loading and Im only firing this gun in single action mode as a reminder that I could get one stuck. Its way too easy to forget.
Best Regards

How low can you go; ZERO powder.
I have seen CB shooters do this with 38 Special; drill out the primer pockets for 209 shotgun primers. That's it. They use the lightest bullets made; not sure what weight. It's called cheating.

lal

The other option is to email SOMCHEM and get in touch with one of the Lab' boys there.
l've emailed them for a friend down your way in the past and found them to be very helpful indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
How low can you go; ZERO powder.
I have seen CB shooters do this with 38 Special; drill out the primer pockets for 209 shotgun primers. That's it. They use the lightest bullets made; not sure what weight. It's called cheating.

Could I use this method to possibly slug the bore ? I have tried making 38sp shotshells with only a 209 primer and they didnt turn out too bad.
Thanks and regards

Might work IF you can come up with a catch
system that won't deform the slug any.
water won't do.

No powder at all, just the primer WILL plug
the bore. On a revolver then you've got to push
'em back to get them out. IF there's any taper
in the bore it won't form.

Tom: is there taper in such bores? I don't know for sure, have been told both ways.

George

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Might work IF you can come up with a catch
system that won't deform the slug any.
water won't do.

No powder at all, just the primer WILL plug
the bore. On a revolver then you've got to push
'em back to get them out. IF there's any taper
in the bore it won't form.

Tom: is there taper in such bores? I don't know for sure, have been told both ways.

George

Thanks I was thinking what dpcd said about using a 209 primer and a very light bullet perhaps even cutting a wadcutter in half...? I was thinking hanging an old bath towel out on a fence some distance and firing at that as a bullet catcher... Im really enjoying this 38 revolver! Wood and blued steel made to shoot real bullets not the powder coated colored type so popular today

quote:

... Im really enjoying this 38 revolver!

I have found a 38spl WC to be one of the most enjoyable rounds to shoot.

Plug the bore?; I saw hundreds of rounds fired that way and no plugged bores. Shotgun primers are very powerful things.
Tapered bores? Maybe very slight on some pre war Colts and S&Ws, but certainly not now.

As to how many loadings one can get out of a case I have no idea. I never counted. I did reread an article once upon aq time in Guns + Ammo where they verified 138 reloadings. I just quit when I see case issues. As to plugging the bore; I used the lead slugs to do my bore dia. in my 7X57 AI for Veral Smith to build the molds.

The 38 Special/357 Magnum revolver is my go to testing platform for all unknown powders.

I get all sorts of powders from people that no one knows the origins of.

Or we recover powder from other sources, which otherwise would be destroyed.

I am not suggesting anyone does this, but, if you one use a little bit of thought, there should be no problems, as we never had any.

A friend from the coast guards called, laughing, and said he had a drum of naval flairs that have expired in 1980!

Would I have any use for them?

I said yes, and he brought them.

There were 4 different types of flares in that drum.

We dismantled them, and got all the powder out.

We mixed the powder together.

He asked what I was going to do with about 10 kgs of powder.

I told him I will use it for cast bullets in revolvers.

I loaded 2 grains in a 357 case and a 158 grain bullet and fired it.

The bullet stuck in the barrel!

I doubled the charge in a case, and loaded that one and fired it, the bullet hit the target.

I increased the charge gradually until I got around 900 fps.

That is my charge for the 357.

Tried the same powder in a 44 Magnum, and again stopped at a reasonable charge for target shooting.

Works like a charm!

I have never heard of detonation occurring with fast powders.

It is supposed to happen when one tries very slow powders in reduced loads.

I ended up with 8lbs of blank powder from 06 blanks.

I tired to work up a load for 38spl.

1.5grs gave about 400fps 2grs struck a case.

I decided not to try it any more.

I think it is a lost faster then bullseye.

We were trying to blow up three rifles

We wanted 3 different cartridges, different calibers, but same case capacity.

Arrived at 243 Winchester.
308 Winchester
303 British

Loaded them all full with Bullseye or HP38 - cannot remember which.

The 243 was a BSA
The 308 was a BRNO
The 303 was an Enfield.

The BSA blew apart completely!

The BRNO cracked the stock be the magazine slightly, and we opened the bolt with a hammer.
The 303 suffered least amount of damage!!

We did not stop there.

We took the barrel off the BRNO, and chambered it for the 300 Winchester Magnum.

Repeated the test with a full case of powder.

The stock broke and the rifle was damaged, but not nearly enough like the BSA!

A friend from the police said he will be happy to sign us into the mental asylum!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Plug the bore?; I saw hundreds of rounds fired that way and no plugged bores. Shotgun primers are very powerful things.
Tapered bores? Maybe very slight on some pre war Colts and S&Ws, but certainly not now.

Well learn something new every day.... THANK YOU ! I drilled out 2 cases to accept 209 primers and hell this is fun !!! I cut off the tip of a 150gr SWC and used the bottom section like a WC. It did not get stuck. I then tried a 150gr bullet uncut and it too did not get stuck in the bore! I fired another 30 or so in an outside room and cant wait to get back in there again !
Accuracy isnt very good but Im having cheap fun and I recast the lead I retrieve from my backstop. (just a card board box stuffed with old clothes)

Thank You to everyone once again !

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We were trying to blow up three rifles

We wanted 3 different cartridges, different calibers, but same case capacity.

Arrived at 243 Winchester.
308 Winchester
303 British

Loaded them all full with Bullseye or HP38 - cannot remember which.

The 243 was a BSA
The 308 was a BRNO
The 303 was an Enfield.

The BSA blew apart completely!

The BRNO cracked the stock be the magazine slightly, and we opened the bolt with a hammer.
The 303 suffered least amount of damage!!

We did not stop there.

We took the barrel off the BRNO, and chambered it for the 300 Winchester Magnum.

Repeated the test with a full case of powder.

The stock broke and the rifle was damaged, but not nearly enough like the BSA!

A friend from the police said he will be happy to sign us into the mental asylum!

I am surprised at your results ! Was the BSA a Mauser action 98 ?

quote:

Originally posted by lal:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We were trying to blow up three rifles

We wanted 3 different cartridges, different calibers, but same case capacity.

Arrived at 243 Winchester.
308 Winchester
303 British

Loaded them all full with Bullseye or HP38 - cannot remember which.

The 243 was a BSA
The 308 was a BRNO
The 303 was an Enfield.

The BSA blew apart completely!

The BRNO cracked the stock be the magazine slightly, and we opened the bolt with a hammer.
The 303 suffered least amount of damage!!

We did not stop there.

We took the barrel off the BRNO, and chambered it for the 300 Winchester Magnum.

Repeated the test with a full case of powder.

The stock broke and the rifle was damaged, but not nearly enough like the BSA!

A friend from the police said he will be happy to sign us into the mental asylum!

I am surprised at your results ! Was the BSA a Mauser action 98 ?

I think it was a Mauser copy.

This actually got us thinking.

That due to the smaller caliber, may be higher pressure was generated.

it [the smaller bore] always has higher pressure.
the gas volume is more than the bore volume and can easily push in all directions at high pressure for a longer period of time.
what happens is the bullet moving away doesn't change the total volume available very much so pressures stay higher longer.
it's what allows you to use slower burning powders in the small bore size cases,
and explains why we use fast rifle powders in the bigger bore rifles.
it works the same way in shot shells too.
the 20ga operates at a higher pressure than the 12 and the 28 at a higher pressure than the 20 etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We were trying to blow up three rifles

We wanted 3 different cartridges, different calibers, but same case capacity.

Arrived at 243 Winchester.
308 Winchester
303 British

Loaded them all full with Bullseye or HP38 - cannot remember which.

The 243 was a BSA
The 308 was a BRNO
The 303 was an Enfield.

The BSA blew apart completely!

The BRNO cracked the stock be the magazine slightly, and we opened the bolt with a hammer.
The 303 suffered least amount of damage!!

We did not stop there.

We took the barrel off the BRNO, and chambered it for the 300 Winchester Magnum.

Repeated the test with a full case of powder.

The stock broke and the rifle was damaged, but not nearly enough like the BSA!

A friend from the police said he will be happy to sign us into the mental asylum!

This reminds me of where a gunclub wanted to demonstrate to youngster members safe reloading. Hey hired a gun sage to purposely blow up an Italian 6.5 Carcano military rifle. He went through all the overloads with normally used powdered and got nothing in blowing up the action. Next he turned to the full case of Bullseye. That didn't do it either! They had the police department demolition team come out and fill the case with C4 explosive. That did it!! Everyone that had gun knowledge was simply flabbergasted at how strong the often ridiculed Italian 6.5 Carcano was.

Thanks for sharing this very interesting information, we never stop learning ....

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
I've shot thousands of .38's with 2.5 to 4gr Red Dot.

Fact is, one of best things I ever did was load cast 115gr RN's in '06 with 3.5gr Red Dot. That's one of the finest ways to teach women and kids how to shoot the big guns without recoil hurting them. Mighty good training.

I was given a FULL 5 gal bucket of rejected commercial reloads by a guy that was partner in the business. He moved back to Wis and didn't want to haul them back again.

I shot the one's that would fire in my K-38 6". Just about every cylinder full had at least one squib that stuck in the bore. I used the starter rod for a muzzle loader to knock 'em out with. Mighty fine trigger control training. There was a great many that didn't have any powder at all, and others with just a very little bit.

There was so many of these I shared with others at the indoor range. I got the brass back. Something like 6000 rounds of that "junk".

There was 8 different powders and hard telling how many various bullets. I weighed each different powder til I found none had more than 5 gr. Then I just dumped 'em all in a jar and shook it up. Reloaded 4gr of the mixture with cast bullets. Seemed just about perfect for plinking.

George

I can't remember the exact charge but I think it was something like 3.5 gr. of Red Dot in a .38 Special. I loaded some 158 gr hardcast for my daughter's first time at the range. They were moving about 600 fps and I felt they were plenty cool for the first time for her.

I see little reason to loading a 38 to such low velocity..POlice depts. that have auto machines for qualification purposes use 2.8 to 3 grs of bulleye, and that's a pipsqueak load.

Blowing up a good bolt action is a lot more difficult than one would think, it takes a bit of effort as you creep up on it, but sooner or later it will come apart of become non function is more likely..

Those "blue pills" that the factory use to test with are might potent..

We had some commercial reloads used for qualification when we had S&W 686s. (Zero brand) They were the most anemic crap you could find. My buddy's brother had some left over from another department. He gave them to us and we went to an old falling down farmhouse and put up a target. The wadcutters were bouncing off the old clapboard construction and coming back at us. We shot them into a clay bank for fun to get rid of the rest. It was fun to make small groups in targets at the Q-course. It amazed the nonshooters. We didn't tell them any different. Be Well, Packy.