I'm having a big problem with run-out. With once fired,twice fired, and new brass from Federal, Gold Medal and Lapua in .308. Before sizing run-out is about.001 to .002.
All cases are fire-formed from my rifle, Rem.700p. except the new ones I sized just to see if the set-up would increase run-out. I use a Redding Type S Bushing style neck sizing die with Titanium Nitride bushings. I set the die up just as I'm supposed to with some play in the die chamber for the bushing to move a little but no matter what I do it still give me .002 run-out or more. My test this morning went as follows:
The first sizing was with expander ball in place the second case sized without expander.
Remington once fired match brass:
case 1. .000 case 2. .000
sized .005 .003 without ball

Federal GoldMedal twice loaded:
case 1. .001 case 2. .001
sized .003 case 2. .003 without ball

Federal Gold Medal Match round bought and shot in rifle once:
case 1. .000 case 2. .001
sized .004 case 2. .004 without ball

BlackHills .308Win Match Ammo fired in my rifle:
before sizing .001 after sizing without ball .003

All reading are from a RCBS CaseMaster Gauging tool.
Any help, suggestions, or words of advice would probably stop a potential Midol overdose.

Thank,
Tony

I have been down the same road! What I have found is that factory chambers tend to be large in the neck allowing for lots of expansion. If you try to size a fired case more than .003-.004 in one pass you will get lots of run-out. I found that if I do the neck sizing in 2-3 steps I can hold the run-out to about .002 or less. It would be interesting to try a tapered sizing bushing, if only someone made one. Note you must also use a straight line seating die to keep the loaded round straight.
Hope this helps.
C.G.B.

I have run across the EXACT same problem reloading 300 Ultra's with the type s bushing dies. I have tried squaring the die, using two different (brand new!!) presses and Redding's suggestion of using two progressively smaller bushings in the process instead (made o difference) of just one.
I just bought a competition seating die from Forster which I like a lot better than the redding seater but it did not change run-out either. I didnt think it would cure it as I have found the neck runout to be born during the neck sizing operation. My next step is to use a regular old RCBS full-length die and see what happens. I have spent more time screwing with these type s dies (and with meticulous case prep) trying to eliminate the run-out while my buddy with the old type just turns out concentric cases with ease (while laughing at me) . Let me know what YOU find. signed: No Redding Fan

Just my opinion but if you are not neck turning the brass there might be some thickness problems with the necks. I'm pretty avid with reloading 300 wbys. If I don't turn case necks I can easily get .003" runnout--but that's with rem brass which is not exactly high grade stuff. Once I've neck turned my forester dies will turn out full length resized and fully loaded shells under .002" all day long--and most hover right around .001". AS A NOTE--I don't think the runnout affects accuracy as much as consistant neck tension. IS IT POSSIBLE that yes, you are measuring runnout on the outside of the case neck but, the inside is perfectily concentric and will have 100% consistant neck tension and thus will give you great accuracy anyhow???

I hope I am not in over my head here.

I use a Redding Type S Full Length Sizer w/o the expander ball. Are you aware that the bushing has a very slight taper built into it? The end of the bushing that is numbered has a slightly larger opening than the end that is not numbered. I put the bushing in the die, numbers down, so the taper is in the right direction.
I also have free-floated the shellholder in my press so that the case finds its own center.
Try Ultraman's idea of using a full length sizing die to see if the runout problem contiues. I found that, in my case, my neck sizing die was never able to size as accurately as my full length sizing die.
Finally, how do the loads shoot? If you are getting little tiny groups, all this fuss over runout might be a moot point.

Hope this helps
ZM

[This message has been edited by Zeke (edited 09-18-2001).]

I recently went down the exact same road myself with the Redding S neck dies for my 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Weatherby. I tried sizing with the button, without the button, and with progressively smaller bushings. Nothing I did achieved the desired results. I must mention that I don't neck turn, so that may be the one thing that would solve the problem with these dies.

So what did I do? I bought the Lee collet neck die. I'm now turning out cartridges with very, very little runout. The most runout I've ever measured since using the Lee die is .003". However, .001" is the norm and quite often the needle on the dial indicator hardly moves at all. In addition to the great concentricity these dies produce, one of the other benefits is that you don't have to lube your cases.

But let me warn you about these dies. When I first tried the 7mm Rem Mag die I could not get it to work properly. I either got buckled case necks or not enough neck tension. I found that the internal parts were too roughly finished to work properly. I took some wet/dry sandpaper in grits ranging from 320 to 1500 along with some 3 in 1 oil and polished the collet and the opening of the collet sleeve where the collet enters it. I also turned the mandrel down by .001" for more neck tension (I'm not sure this was necessary). I then lubricated the collet with a little grease and now it works perfectly. When I later bought the .300 Wby die, I performed the same polishing routine prior to using it. I have stated on other boards that I liken these dies to diamonds in the rough. With a little polishing, these dies do a fantastic job.

[This message has been edited by Delta Hunter (edited 09-18-2001).]

I use the Redding S dies in as many cartridges as I can. I've even converted some dies for which Redding does not make an S die. A good part of the problem in getting and maintaining concentric brass, and seated bullets, is in the press. Setting up the die properly is also imperative. I went through several presses, I have seven of them, trying to find one in which the die boss was concentric with the ram and shellholder. Almost impossible. ALL the press manufacturers build their presses and parts with a plus or minus .005" tolerance. Unless one part offsets the imbalance with another, you WILL have runout in the press and it WILL introduce runout into your brass. Also, the slop in the theads of the die boss provides ample room for error, so die setup is extremely important. It must be seated concentric with the ram and the shellholder. The concentricity of your press is the luck of the draw and dependant on the parts included, and their runout.

Another source of introducing runout is in the die locking rings. Most, except Forster and Hornady, lock the ring with a set screw on the threads of the die. This enables the die to cant in the slop of the threads. Use of a clamping type ring is better but then the plane of the ring has to be at a perfect 90 degree angle to the bore of the die.

The best and truest "C" or "O" type press I have is a Lyman Orange Crusher. It only had a .002" runout between ram and die boss. That runout could be accommodated in the setup of the dies, using the slop in the threads of the die boss to your advantage. Or else, you can determine the orientation of the runout by indexing the case and rotating it 180 degrees, then resizing, to attain perfect concentricity. In other words, two strokes without passing an expander through the neck between strokes. I solved my problem by going to the Forster Coax press, which has the least runout of all and gives me consistently zero runout in sizing with the Redding S dies. Seating the bullets perfectly is another matter, unless you neck turn, which I try not to do. As another poster noted, the uneven brass will also give minimal runout. Runout in the cartridge is also highly dependant on the seater used in seating the bullets and the technique used by the reloader in doing so.

As someone said earlier, none of this matters if the groups are good. If you have your brass close to zero runout and the total runout of your seated bullets is less than .002", you'll never know the difference on paper or while hunting.

I can add a bit to my previous post. As an additional check of your system set-up try running a case into a fl resizing die without the expander and measuring its runout at neck, mid body etc. I have found that my press, anyway, will generally produce a case with very little runout.
The info on the Lee die is interesting; I have wanted to try one of these. I wonder why no one else has picked up on this approach (patents?).
Also I have seen it mentioned here and in other places that there is someone that will convert your fl or neck size die to accept a bushing. Can anyone give me the name of the folks that do this? As a note, Redding will sell die blanks that you can have chambered to suit your needs.
C.G.B.