My wifes grandfather reloaded and passed away. All his stuff was passed down to me and he had boatloads of powder. Most of it is in factory containers but there are two full milkjugs capped and labeled IMR 4831. It was all stored in a cool dry place and should be fine. Would you try a few light loads or put it out to pasture for fertilizer?

shoot it !

Send it to me and I'll fertilize plants with it. It's ashes anyway.

Unless it has deteriorated & smells bad, you have come into the motherlode. Gallon jugs were a normal container for some early Hodgden and Accurate 4831. There isn't a better powder for a 270, 6mm, and some others, available.
BTW, Accurate labeled their 4831 as MR3100.
My father in law left me a couple dozen 22 longs.

It could be surplus 4831 from 40+ years ago. I used to get it from a store that had 100# bulk containers - they would sell it for $1/# in any container you brought with you.

If that is what it is, it will be "about" the same as H-4831. I still have some of it and it is still good.

This is from around 1974. It does not smell bad and i'll have to look at the jugs, I may be mistaken as it may just say 4831 and not IMR 4831. I will look today. I also got 6 containers (the old short orange square metal cans) of bullseye. 5 cans of Dupont IMR 4064 (blue metal can with white lettering) and some cans of RED DOT. All cans are sealed and unopened.

Love that 4064 too.

man you lucked out!!! I think it was the 4064 I couldn't find back in oct when I was looking. shoot it all!

Red

My only isssue is it really what you think it is? You can get into trouble pretty quickly using the wrong powder & data. I would not hesitate to use 30yr old powder that was stored in it's original container, but a milk jug, nope.

It is in all likelihood Hodgdon Surplus 4831. This powder will be somewhat slower than IMR 4831 (and better in most applications).

Use starting load data from any manual for H4831. DON'T go below this starting load level. Even if it is IMR 4831, the starting load level will not be dangerous. However, going lower than "starting loads" could generate a dangerous condition sometimes found with H4831 and other fairly slow powders called "Secondary Explosion Effect" or "S.E.E."

The original Hodgdon Surplus 4831 is capable of yielding excellent velocities and very low shot-to-shot velocity variations. It is an absolute favorite of mine in cartriges ranging from .243 Winchester to .270, and .338 Magnum. It is even well-adapted to 180 grain and heavier bullets in .30-06.

quote:

I would not hesitate to use 30yr old powder that was stored in it's original container, but a milk jug, nope.

The original container for Surplus 4831 was a grain elevator (for all of it Bruce Hodgdon couldn't fit into rail cars.) It's kinda hard to take the original container home with you.

And by the way, Surplus 4831 is now a bit better than 60 years old.

I’d shoot it but only after you clarify the label. When you said Grandfather I think you can probably guess that it is H4831 and not IMR4831 as that powder was widely sold in bulk for a number of years. Follow the guidance of the other posters for smell etc but I would take a starting load of one of your cartridges that 4831 would be appropriate in, load it and shoot it following all the standard rules of load workup…you might relegate to a “practice powder” at a low manual charge and shoot it up.

H4831 was the first powder I bought when I started reloading over 30 years ago…went out to my local gunsmith’s shop where he scooped out a 1 pound coffee can full out of a 55 gallon drum, leveled it with a stick and dumped it in a paper bag and told me “kid don’t blow your head off and charged me.....$1.50!
Good luck
Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
It is in all likelihood Hodgdon Surplus 4831. This powder will be somewhat slower than IMR 4831 (and better in most applications).

Use starting load data from any manual for H4831. DON'T go below this starting load level. Even if it is IMR 4831, the starting load level will not be dangerous. However, going lower than "starting loads" could generate a dangerous condition sometimes found with H4831 and other fairly slow powders called "Secondary Explosion Effect" or "S.E.E."

The original Hodgdon Surplus 4831 is capable of yielding excellent velocities and very low shot-to-shot velocity variations. It is an absolute favorite of mine in cartriges ranging from .243 Winchester to .270, and .338 Magnum. It is even well-adapted to 180 grain and heavier bullets in .30-06.

Agreed....good post.

quote:

Would you try a few light loads or put it out to pasture for fertilizer?

Load up low-level loads for each powder it might be and check for signs, then develop a load for it...

1974 was about the time frame I bought 2 milk jugs of powder out of a add in handloader each jug was like 8lbs and it was about $45 shipped
it was labeled AA3100 use same loads data as H-4831. I still have about a lb left.

I also bought #200lbs of H-4831 back about 1964 and i'm still shooting it, it sold for like .40 cents a lb back then and I would sell it too friends for a $1.00 lb in a paper bag.

There still are military surplus resellers that package their powder in "milk jugs"
Jeff Bartlett at
http://www.gibrass.com
still packages this way, when he can get powder.
A couple others just can't think of their names right off.
As always it is prudent to start any load with "new" a component low ans work up.
But the powder should be fine.

muck

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

I would not hesitate to use 30yr old powder that was stored in it's original container, but a milk jug, nope.

The original container for Surplus 4831 was a grain elevator (for all of it Bruce Hodgdon couldn't fit into rail cars.) It's kinda hard to take the original container home with you.

And by the way, Surplus 4831 is now a bit better than 60 years old.

It was packaged by Hogdon & sold in some kind of package. The OP has no idea if the powder in the milk carton is what was written on it by his grandfather. Even if a shop had a 55gal drum of surplus, it would be marked. Regardless of how you took the package home, you would know what was in it. The OP has no idea, it's a huge assumption.

quote:

...it sold for like 40 cents a lb back then...

So why is it so, so much more now? Gasoline, when you adjust for inflation, is cheaper than it was 30 years ago. I remember a gallon of lo-test costing $1.31 a gallon in early 1981 and around $1.17 in 1995. It's $2.69 now-- not six and seven bucks a gallon as you might think. Not that Kenyacommie wouldn't like to see it that high...

My bet would be that laws are so restrictive in the US that another powder plant will never be built here.

Well, the jugs have no (H) and no (IMR) Just 4831 on plain old milk jugs. I'm gonna use light load data for H4831 and give her a whirl. Just to clarify i do like all my fingers. I have an old ratty 30-06 i bought cheap that i built a test bed for and i put the gun in it in front of my 24"x24"x20" deep bullet trap made of 5/8" boiler plate and remotely fire it. I never hold (test loads) next to my face, Not even new loads i'm working up for my good rifles. I load up 2 each in .5 grain increments and fire em in the test bed and feel the bolt and inspect the cases(THEN) i load more to put next to my face on the bench. P.S.----- Is ( OP ) a good thing or bad????? lol

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:
Well, the jugs have no (H) and no (IMR) Just 4831 on plain old milk jugs. I'm gonna use light load data for H4831 and give her a whirl. Just to clarify i do like all my fingers. I have an old ratty 30-06 i bought cheap that i built a test bed for and i put the gun in it in front of my 24"x24"x20" deep bullet trap made of 5/8" boiler plate and remotely fire it. I never hold (test loads) next to my face, Not even new loads i'm working up for my good rifles. I load up 2 each in .5 grain increments and fire em in the test bed and feel the bolt and inspect the cases(THEN) i load more to put next to my face on the bench. P.S.----- Is ( OP ) a good thing or bad????? lol

Since IMR is faster, I would use IMR data instead of H4831.

send me some I'll try it. I could use a gallon.

First off, I hope it is SOME kind of 4831 if you are going to use it with that data. It is harder than you might think to tell exactly what it is.

The 4831 Bruce Hodgdon sold was physically exactly the same size grains as 4350. In fact, it IS a modified form of the same powder as 4350...with 10% burning deterrant instead of the smaller amount in 4350. (That makes the amount of available energy per powder weight the same, but as the additional deterrant causes 4831 to burn slower than 4350, one can use more of it, thus safely releasing more energy over the total burning duration.)

Assuming it IS 4831, I would start about 3% below the minimum H-4831 loads listed in your manuals...just in case it is IMR 4831. S.E.E. is not considered a problem until loaded 10% or more below book minimums.

Lastly, if it is in CLEAR milk jugs, be sure to store it in the dark (like a closed cabinet). Light speeds deterioration in smokeless powders, which is why virtually no powder sold in jugs today is marketed in any kind of jug other than an opaque one.

Great luck, though, if you can either identify the powder for sure, OR work up good loads for whatever it is.

Unfortunately the only one who knows exactly what powder is in the jugs is not able to tell you. So, I would scrap it.

It's just not worth the risk.

Just my 2 Cents

Surplus 4831 was one of the IMR powder series, but it was originally used in the 20mm shell, not in small arms ammunition.

"H"-4831 only came about subsequent to Hodgdon's selling all of the surplus 4831. Until Hodgdon contracted for a "new" supply of 4831 to be manufactured by IMI in Scotland (and later in other places by other manufacturers), all of its surplus 4831 was simply labeled "4831". Contemporary loading manuals simply call it "4831".

Several years subsequent to Hodgodon exhausting its supply of surplus 4831, Dupont "reintroduced" IMR-4831 in its cannister line of powders. For reasons of its own, it formulated the powder a little faster burning than the original powder. At the time, it was said to compenesate for the surplus powder becoming slower due to aging, but that's hogwash as my (now almost exhausted) supply of surplus 4831 burns precisely the same way as it burned 40 years ago when I bought it (and measured the velocity it yielded with an Oehler Model 10.) At any rate, the powder that Dupont sells as IMR-4831 is notably faster than either original surplus 4831 or any of the subsequent versions of H-4831. If data sources are to be believed, IMR-4831 is somewhat closer in burning characteristics to IMR-4350 than to original 4831. Maybe that's not so odd, since in the early days of post WW-II reloading, surplus 4831 was referred to as "4350 Data Powder".

The somewhat surprising thing about today's H-4831 is how closely Hodgdon's contractors have been able to match the burning rate of the surplus stuff, despite doing it on two (or is it three?) different continents and over four decades.

I can't inspect the powder that icemanls2 has, so I can't make any certain representations as to what it is. But I can say that it makes no sense that someone would be able to amass any powder other than 4831 in this volume and form, then bother to label it "4831". Iceman: Use your discretion, but if it were mine and I could do a cursory comparison as to its kernal size and specific gravity, and assuming all is consistent with 4831 I would have enough trust in my wife's grandfather to use a judicious charge under controlled circumstances to prove its nature. Then I would proceed to have a fine old time shooting one of the best rifle propellants ever devised.

Very well put, Stonecreek, and correct too.

I know that when the new IMR 4831 came on the market they did claim that although it was faster, it was the exact same as the older (H) 4831 was when the older stuff was manufactured....and that the older "H" 4831 had slowed as it aged. That was about 30 years after he original (H) 4831 was commonly made.

Anyway, at the time I wondered about that, so I bought an 8 lb. can of the "new" stuff, even though I still had maybe 50 pounds of the original at that time. (Yes, the "new" powder came in blue and white Dupont 8 lb. cans ).

I have loaded and used a few rounds just about every year since then, out of that same can. As far as I can tell the new IMR hasn't slowed down one iota, and now IT is 30 years old, give or take a few. Somehow I don't believe the original powder would slow after aging 30 years and the new stuff would not slow over a similar 30 years, if they were both the same.

Good post you made.

Before I began using it, though, I would get a copy of the "NRA Handloaders Guide", which gives dimensions for kernals of all the original IMR series powders. Then, I'd get a good mic and measure a few of the kernals to make sure they match the dimensions for 4831 and 4350. (Both those two are the same dimensions.)

I find it hard to believe that someone who is "rifle loony" enough to buy multiple jugs of powder didn't keep any loading records.

Look around.

There may very well be records. I've just started cleaning out the garage where all the stuff is. I've found reciepts for bullets and cases and such from 1973. I'm keeping my eyes open. Alot of the reloaded ammo i've looked at maybe 1 box out of 6 had a recipe label on it, But i know alot of old timers that were not big on labels and logs.

Very interesting thread. Some of you old goats really bring back fond memories, Here's one from me, I grew up in Southern California, near the town of Glendora. In those days no one had any money, so if we could save on reloading components it was a jackpot. Out in Upland, there was an outfit called Cortners Trap Range, they were located on 19th street, for the guys who know the area. We'd go out there and buy a "paint can" full off powder,about 3 pounds, 1,000 Herters primers, a 1,000 wads, a bag of shot, and spend less than $20.00. I stll have one ofthe paint cans, empty of course.

As to the supposed 4831, I wouldn't be to worrried about it, if you keep the loads in the light range, and look for signs of pressure, it'll be ok, even if it turns out to be 4895, or 4064,

Jerry

I had a chance to get some 30-06 loaded up and test em. I loaded 5 rounds for a good test with 56 grains, CCI200 primer, and speer #2023 150 spitz, coal 3.225" useing H4831 data. The first round showed no signs of pressure, 2nd round showed slight flattened primer, 3-4-and 5 showed no signs of pressure. Other than the one flat primer there were no other signs of pressure. I'm not sure what's up with #2. There were signs of unburned powder for all rounds. Barrel length is 20 inches. I may run the same test again. All 5 rounds were mic'd and trickle charged so all were identical and double checked each charge with 2 different scales. Any ideas? maybe a soft primer cup?

If you're getting unburned powder at 56 grains, it's time to back it off one or two and shoot a few again. You now know where to start...

I was thinking that too, thanks homebrew. I wasn't sure if it could be at all due to the short barrel. The test subject is a REM 742 autoloader

Yes; when there is residual powder, you have gone over the limit. The powder needs time to burn. This is why magnums have barrels usually in the 24-inch to 26-inch range. Is there a lot of powder, say, spread evenly from breech to muzzle? Or just a few grains along the bore more toward the end? If the powder is more toward the end, you are just a bit over. Most of it burned. What may be there is what's left from the rush of gases escaping. I'd say drop three grains, shoot one and check. If it's clear, go up by one. Once you've done that first add-up, go by halves. Check and clear the barrel between shots. Do not shoot again if there is unburned powder. Not good. Run a dry patch through it to clear the bore. You should find the optimal load pretty quickly. It may turn out that the maximum powder you can burn without reside isn't accurate, as some would define it. Well, we are dealing with old powder, we aren't really sure what it is and we didn't pay for it, so enjoy it to whatever extent you can...

Homebrewer
Just a few grains at the muzzle. I did run a patch through the bore after each round. Is it normal to only have one flat primer out of 5? That confused me a little. Tomarrow i will try backing off a few grains and try it again. I think i am pretty close. Thanks for your help.

As you know, a flat primer is a sign of excessive pressure. I'm going to guess that one particular case is of slightly lesser volume than the ones that did not flatten. Lesser volume would result in higher pressure with an equal charge with respect to the others. Maybe find five that are very close in weight, load those and see what happens...

Flat primers aren't always a sign of excessive pressure. Sometimes they are a sign of insufficient pressure. The primer backs out before the case head expands against the bolt face.

Unburnt grains are also a sign of low pressure and powder that is too slow for the application, which I suspect is the case here.

Hodgdon's doesn't list 4831 as a 30/06 powder until you get to 180gr bullets. Then they have 60.0gr of it for 2710fps and only 44,300 CUP. I haven't used it, but I would guess that the case is full and that's why they didn't list a heavier charge that meets their maximum pressure of 50,000 CUP.

ETA: They show 60gr behind a 130gr .270 as compressed. I'm sure it is in the 30/06 as well.

When Hodgdon first started selling 4831 about 55 to 60 years ago, I bought it in a brown paper bag. The smith who was selling it got it in a big drum, and dispensed it in paper bags.
That's the only powder I used in the 7mm Ackley Mag I had built in the late 1950's.

Remember, this powder is 35yrs old or so and i'm not sure if it's surplus 4831, H, or IMR.There are several manuals that list H4831 for a 150 grain bullet.With 56 grains the case was filled halfway up the neck and when the bullet was seated it was compressed. 56 grains isn't listed as compressed in either of the manuals i referenced. However at 56 grains i had unburned powder at the muzzle, mild powder residue on the table, and 1 out of 5 rounds had flattened primer. I shoot alot and the shot was a KAWOOM, not a kapow. I stepped down 3 steps with no unburned powder or residue and no pressure signs. Took another step up shooting 5 rounds at 54 grains and results were the same. Another 5 rounds at 55 had same results at 2670fps.I took a half step to 55.5 and i had specs of residue and 1 unburned granule. It was 53 degrees out here today. It appears my working max load is 55 grains for 150 grain sp for 30-06. Gonna try a few more for 165 and 180 grain Then i may work on a load for 300 win mag. Thanks again for all your help. I may note that for the loads i tried the starting load for H4831 was 56 grains as listed and starting load for IMR4831 was 55 grains where 55 grains appears to be my max.

quote:

Flat primers aren't always a sign of excessive pressure. Sometimes they are a sign of insufficient pressure. The primer backs out before the case head expands against the bolt face.

When I say flat, I mean the primer has assumed a coplanar state with the head. I've also seen the edge of the primer flow into the chamfer of the primer pocket on military brass when I decap it. I see this mostly on PMC brass, which I think is of a slightly lesser volume than LC or any of the commercial. I'd think that was quite a lot of pressure to do that. I'm always open to learning more about our sport/hobby. Keep it coming...

My primer was FLAT (no rounded edge left) and the casehead stamping was flattened and not near as pronounced as it was when it went in, all i know is all the signs went away when i dropped to 53 grains and are still not present at 55 so this leads me to believe my signs were high, not low pressure. Since i have come to AR i have learned a ton and it has been addicting and fun. Thanks all, if you have more helpful info please keep it comeing, Maybe i'll start a new thread, I'd like to learn more on pressures.