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Quote:Quote: For those of you that aren't aware of it, the SAAMI Pressure is low enough for this cartridge and rifle that CHE will not work. PRE would work "IF" the Chamber had not been cleaned up and set back a thread, because he could have used the Factory Loads shot in the original Chamber to establish a Standard. I did have a couple of suggestions for Deke over the phone and believe they will help him. Darn shame eldeguello won't let us in on what he meant by "the Marlin telling you". Surely eldeguello knew what he was talking about!  | ||
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HotCore, Spoke to Cliff Labounty today and he said that the chamber was not reamed @ the pressure ring so I may be in business. Have jumped back on developing the 7-08 (have a silhouette match 8.1), and probably won't be able to do much with the 3030AI until late August. My Deer tag is the first week of November so I have plenty of time. In the mean time I will formulate a plan (probably use the factory PRE measurements I got as a base then go up to .0020 higher, cross reference Ackley's load data best as possible, try the other tricks we discussed, etc.). In the mean time we will see what other info this post may generate. Deke. | |||
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I am developing loads for a 3030AI that is in a 1948 24" Marlin 336. I have read Ken Water's technique of measuring pressure rings, but have a few questions. First of all, Ken states to establish a baseline pressure ring measurement, fire factory ammo and measure pressure rings. I have done this in the chamber before it was AI'd and have an average measurement of .4183". Ken then gives increases in this measurement which he deems as not excessive pressure. For example, in a modern lever action (which I would consider a 1948 manuf date to be), .0010 over the factory ammo totaling .4193" in my rifle would be the most that Ken believes is not excessive. Now for the questions. Does the AI reamer change the factory chamber at the pressure ring (hard to tell from drawings @ Steve's pages)? If it does not then I have a baseline to start with. If it does then I really have no way of establishing a factory baseline since the chamber is now bigger and the pressure and pressure ring measurements will be less w/factory ammo...... I would be very interested in hearing from those that monitor pressure rings and have experience with any Wildcats where the pressure ring portion of the chamber has been changed, and especially from those that have the 3030AI (in particular, the pressure stopping points where they have deemed pressure as starting to become excessive in their 336's, etc.). Deke. | |||
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Quote: Now there is the ONLY piece of good advice in that post. HSGS = Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fool's Gold) | |||
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I hope he does the test. That will settle that, big time. By the way, which is it? You can, or cannot use factory ammunition as a standard? You've made both statements recently. You got caught on that one once before. Which is it? And is your PRE system calibrated or not? You said that it is. Ken Waters says that it isn't. If it is, you should be able to report your results in meaningful units, such as PSI. Got any PSI data from your PRE measurements? | |||
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Well I went out and did my best to duplicate the 150gr load in Ackley Vol 1. Worked up to 38grIMR3031 using Horn150grRN/Fed210GM/R-Pbrass without any notable excess pressure signs(got 2615fps which is 515fps more than the factory Rem150gr CoreLokts produced in the 3030 before it was reamed). I talked to the smith that reamed my chamber and he said the PR portion was not reamed. Therefore the 6 factory loads I fired prior to reaming is a good base point for PRE measurements. The PR measurement of the factory loads in factory chamber averaged.4183". The Ackley max load in reamed chamber was .4207" which is a .0024" PRE. Waters recomended a max PRE of .0010" with a modern front locking lever. However, Ackley noted that his straight walled design could handle much higher pressure since bolt thrust is significantly minimized. For now I will call .4207" PR (.0024" PRE) the max in my gun. Next thing is to load up 10 @ 38gr to get a better average, but I think it will stay at or close to .4207". After that I may drag the loading equipment to the range and keep loading the same case over and over to failure or boredom to get an idea of what case life might be. At some point I will work up the Barnes150XBT. The Barnes should be a great deer bullet. Deke. | |||
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Deke, Interesting information. Did you happen to measure the PRE of the factory Remington loads? Would like to know the PRE comparison between these two. Thanks, ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Remington CoreLokt 150gr factory unfired ammo is .4145" at PR. Fired in MY Marlin (24" barrel manuf in 1948) factory chamber it averaged .4183". However, as I understand it, the PRE that we are concerned with is not the change from .4145" to .4183". The idea is to use the .4183" (factory load fired in factory chamber) as a very safe starting point. PRE in excess of .4183" is what we are measuring since we as handloaders among other things, are concerned with bettering factory ammo velocities which in most cases mean more pressure and PRE. For now, I have established a PRE of .0024" above the .4183" (.4207" stopping point) as max in my gun. This may change one way or the other as I continue to load for this gun. I also want to stress that if there was ever a system that was gun specific (especially in a wildcat), this one certainly is. I know of some that stop at .4220", there may be some that stop at .4190", much depending on the chamber which can very alot when you consider different smiths/reamers/manufacturers and on and on....... Deke. | |||
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Quote: Hey Deke, That puts it ahead of the 300Sav which is an outstanding Deer cartridge. Can't remember if we discussed the 150gr Hornady RN or not. For anyone interested, this is one of their 2-diameter designs which works great on Deer at the typical 1700-2100fps Impact Velocity they are designed for. And they even work well at higher velocities when the shot is ribs-to-ribs. The 2-diameter design reduces Bore Friction and helps align the Bullet in the Bore from the moment the initial firing begins. They have always been extremely accurate in my 308Wins. How accurate were they for you Deke? They also allow a person to reach higher velocities at lower pressures than is "typically" normal with a 1-diameter bullet. This is another reason why it is always a good idea to re-develop the Load from below when you switch components, just as Deke mentioned he will do. I've not tried any of those 150gr BarnesX bullets, but I would agree that they should be quite effective on Deer starting at 2600fps, and you should get some fine Exits. Real glad to hear it is working so well for you Deke! | |||
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HotCore, Thanks for the encouragement and info. I was not concerned with accuracy when working up this load, but will certainly be when I shoot the next 10 rounds. I do not have a scope on this rifle and the front sight is not hooded making the brass bead a little overwhelming in sunlight, but we will see. Will drill/tap for scope eventually, but not sure of how soon. I thought I might clarify the Barnes a bit more. It is the 150XFN (specifically for 3030), not the XBT. For kicks I had entertained the idea of a spitzer as first chambered round (not in tubular mag, blue XLC to punctuate the difference). The XLC would not feed or eject well (too long) so I will give them a go in my 30Gibbs. BTW, anybody want to share load data on the 3030AI/150XFN? Deke. | |||
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Quote: Just went back to see if Deke had mentioned the "reason" for creating this rifle, or if that was phone conservation. Since it was over the phone, it will be Deke's choice if it gets in this thread. But, I just happend upon the above and as usual, couldn't help but laugh at denton - again. Here we have another person (Deke) joining the hundreds of thousands of folks who are using PRE to their advantage to "help" develop SAFE MAX Loads for well over 100 years. No need to mess up a perfectly fine rifle's accuracy or appearance by removing the oil from it, gluing on a Strain Gauge and then hooking the (real cute) wires to a HSGS that can't be Set-Up accurately or Calibrated. HSGS = Reloaders Pyrite(Fool's Gold) ... And I tripped on to this "Classic": Quote: Still no response from eldeguello which confirms what I've suspected for a long time. | |||
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Hot Core has no facts, no figures, and no physics. He only has an opinion, based on an opinion he read somewhere. He declined the opportunity to test the PRE method, and has nothing but jeers for those who did. He claims to have 20 years of experience with strain gages, and can't answer a few simple questions about them. He told us all how to do PRE, and then had to do a quick 180 when somebody pointed out that the method he was publishing wasn't the Ken Waters method after all. He fabricates, and publishes, BS, such as the notion that a strain gage will somehow spoil the accuracy of a rifle. Which body orfice did you pull that one out of, Hot Core? The test, which anyone can do for themselves, clearly showed that PRE cannot reliably repeat the same measurement, given the same pressure. Hot Core claims that the system is calibrated. Ken Waters said that it is not. So which is it, Hot Core? Is it calibrated, or is it not? If it is calibrated, how about sharing some PSI numbers with us? Hot Core has explained to all of us that you can't use factory ammo as a standard of comparison for the strain gage system. Then, a couple of posts later, he tells us that you can use factory ammo as a standard of comparison for the PRE system. So which is it Hot Core? You can't have it both ways. You're not John Kerry, you know. We're waiting for answers: Can or cannot use factory ammo as a comparison? Is or is not calibrated? If it is, where are your PSI numbers? | |||
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I just wanted to know the comparison in PRE expansion between the factory loaded 30-30 and Deke's 30-30 Ackley Improved maximum loads. With a 500+ fps increase in muzzle velocity I am betting there is a substantial difference in PRE measurement between the factory 30-30 and the 30-30 Ackley Improved. The factory loaded 30-30 is only operating around 45,000 psi; therefore, it is no problem to achieve substantial increases in muzzle velocity by loading to around 55,000 psi. Deke, on you new max load, what do the primers look like? Specifically, is there any ridging around the striker (firing pin) indentation? This is an indication of plastic flow into the firing pin bore in the bolt face. This seems to occur at pressure upwards of 64,000 psi with bolts that do not have excessively sloppy firing pin bores. Thanks, ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Deke, You can take this for what it is worth but: I did a stress analysis based upon the PRE data your posted and came up with some frightening numbers. The barrel shank diameter I used was off of a Model 94 Winchester and measured 0.910" The von Mises (combined stress) acting on the barrel shank with your max load is ~ 109,000 psi!!! This is above the simple tensile yield strength and very close to the simple tensile ultimate strength. This means that your barrel is being stressed to the point it COULD LET GO WITH LITTLE OR NO WARNING ie EXPLODE! < !--color--> I calculated average working pressures for your load, based upon the ballistics you posted, of between 62,000 and 65,000 psi! The peak pressures ran between 74,000 and 82,000 psi! This is VERY HOT! It it were me I would back off on that load and not shoot it again! < !--color--> The rimmed cases DO NOT indicate pressure well, and can blow a rifle barrel! Please please be very careful! ASS_CLOWN | |||
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ASSCLOWN, I think that my last post should have given you the data you were looking for. Let me know if it did not. As far as visual primer signs go, I will say that I put little value on primer signs (unless it is pierced, blown out of pocket, severely flattened, etc.). However, to answer your question, I believe I have seen primers flow into the firing pin hole with this gun even on loads that I KNOW are low pressure. After that there is not much difference to the eye. I believe that in my gun this could be attributed to a larger opening to the firing pin bore, but I don't know what to compare it to since this is my only Marlin 336. If you could post some photos of the conditions and/or firing pin bores you are talking about they might be very helpful. Deke. | |||
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Deke, Did you read my last post! I am very concerned about the pressure / stress levels it appears your max load is generating!!! I don't have any primer flow pics. I did not think to take pictures of them. I got some textbook examples when I was working up loads with the 400 gr Woodleigh in my 405 Winchester M95 Winchester. Forgive my ignorance of the Marlin, but is it a rebounding hammer? The M95 Winchester is, so the firing pin does not support the primer indentation during the firing event, at least not well. I believe this was the reason I was shearing out the striker indentation in the 405 Win at an average chamber pressure of ~ 64,000 to 68,000 psi (yes these were VERY hot loads and showed about 0.002" - 0.0025" of PRE). My 300 Win M70 produces plastic flow of the primer into the firing pin bore of the bolt face as well. It is due to a sloppy tolerance (loose fit) of the firing pin to the bolt bore. The firing pin in the M70 though supports the primer and the indentation does not seem to shear out like it did in the M95. Like I said, this is only my opinion and/or observations for whatever it is worth. I simply don't want to see anyone get hurt over a couple hundred fps of muzzle velocity, which really is irrelevant for most applications fo the firearm anyway. Good luck. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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ASSCLOWN, Your email is alarming  ! I am very surprised to say the least since this load was straight from Ackley Volume 1. I can see some fluctuation, but the Hornady150RN is reported to produce relatively low pressures when compared to other 150's. Like I said, no significant pressure signs were observed. Velocity increased steadily from 32.5gr on up to 38gr at a rate of 33fps per 1/2 gr increase with no sharp jumps or drops?????Anybody worked with 150's and 38gr of IMR3031? Deke. | |||
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Quote: Hey Deke, If you are excnanging emails with AC, you may want to explain the "Primer Trick" we discussed. That should help lower his concern. On the other hand, if his figures are indeed accurate, then the Primer Trick should have indicated that kind of Pressure for sure. Anyway, we sure don't want some Rookie (like denton or eldeguello ) getting that "Primer Trick" info and hurting themselves.... Hey AC, How did you do the Pressure Calculations without knowing the "Internal Volume" of Deke's 30-30AI cases? Maybe I missed where Deke posted that. | |||
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RCBS Load shows the "standard" 30-30AI has a case capacity to the mouth of 47.7gr water with a case wall taper of .020, 46.6gr water with a .025 taper, and 45.5gr water with a .030 wall taper. using the .025 taper, and measuring to the base of the neck the capacity is 39.5gr water. For approxamitly a 10-11% gain in capacity over the parent case. FWIW The standard 30WCF case yeilds 45.5gr water @.020 taper, 44.5gr water @ .025, 43.6gr water @ .030 taper, and 35.4gr water to the base of the neck with a .025 taper. The point being that the capacity information is fairly easy to obtain, even for wildcats that are "still on the drawing board" if you know where to look. | |||
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Deke, My statements are based upon the load data and PRE dimensional data you provided in previous posts. The volume of the 30-30 AI was calculated and yielded about 1.9 grains more capacity than what I measured my normal 30-30 cases to be. Here is a little additional information. 308 Win (case volume ~ 56.2 grain of water on average) 150 grain Core Lokt 43 grains of IMR3031 Extractor groove expansion - 0.0072" Blown primer Chamber pressure ~ 79,000 psi This occurred during load development. I was achieving about 60 fps per grain up to the blowing of the primer. So I really do not put much faith in the muzzle velocity incremental changes theory of pressure estimation. 303 British Case volume ~ 54.7 grains of water on average 174 grain Hornady 37.5 grains of IMR3031 Some slight primer plastic flow around firing pin Measured chamber pressure ~ 72,000 psi I use IMR4064 in both of these cartridged now. I can get higher velocity and lower pressures. Now both of the above examples were in military barrels. I don't know if that means anything or not. If it were me I would be using a powder like Rel 10, IMR4064, W748, H335, or one of the 4895s. I think you may achieve equivalent or greater velocity with less pressure. The case head on you 30-30, by the way is at least as strong as the 375 H&H magnum and more likely somewhere inbetween the 375H&H and the 416 Rigby case heads in strength. What this means is that it will take in excess of 80,000 psi to permanently deform the primer pocket. The barrel shank is typically the weakest link in these lever actions, unlike most bolt actions where the rimless case is. For whatever it is worth there it is. Like I said before, be careful. ASS_CLOWN I edited the case volumes as I had remembered them wrong! Sorry. | |||
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Quote: Hey Tailgunner, Excellent data on the "Standardized" Wildcats. And I understand your point. Back when I was messing with Wildcats, they had "local names" like Hale, Jefferies, Kofer, etc. The Wildcat was typically unique to one or two Reamers. So my thoughts on them aren't as "Standardized". The ability to get data concerning them would have to come from a Chamber Cast and the grains of water a Fire Formed case holds. I'm still a bit leary of expecting the data taken from a book will be relevant to a chamber cut by anyone outside a factory, be it a Wildcat or a simple rebarrell to a non-wildcat chambering. Simply due to my experience with them. No offense to your post is meant by my skepticism of the data, it is probably close enough to get a relatively good "guessing point" on where to start. | |||
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Hot core, The 30-30 brass I have is Remington at 47.1 grains and Winchester at 46.6 grains. The model I used for a 30-30 AI calculated an internal volume of 49 grains correlated to the Remington case (in other words if I put the book dimensions for the 30-30 into the model it spit out 47.1 gr). I opted for the largest case volume to achieve the lowest pressures. If the dimensions of the case are known it is really quite simple to calculate the internal volume. I have two models for calculating case internal volumes. One model which assumes standard case wall thicknesses. The second model calculates the basic case first and then using the final case dimensions calculates the internal volume of the formed case. The second model is far more complex than the first, and with the draw die draft angle being the only variable of interest, this second model will tell you what the draw die draft angle is for different brass manufacturers if you first measure the internal volume of their cases. Also, see my edit of my last post as I misspoke the case volumes in the 308 Win and 303 Brit. I was pulling them from my NOT SO good memory (I must be getting old as my memory USED to be real good ).If it were me I would go to a slow powder than IMR3031. The numbers keep coming up shouting - there is a high probability of barrel blow-up!< !--color--> Like I have said in every other post on this subject. You all can take it for what it is worth. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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Hot Core Thanks for not taking offense. The same program allows you to design cartridges, and keeps track of the water capacity changes as you proceed/make changes. This is what I meant with the "still on the board" statement. Yes, you used to need to do a measurment "back in the day" (or a lot of "headache" math), but today you can let the computer do the calculating. | |||
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Quote: Hey AC, I understand what you were doing and how you got there. Thanks. My point (however feeble I am at explaining it) is that "guessing" at the actual case capacity can lead to improper conclusions. Check your emails to see if Deke sent you anything about the Primer Trick. Once you understand that, a lot of your "valid concerns" will be reduced. | |||
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Quote: No, I meant I hoped "you" didn't take offense at my skepticism. Here, perhaps this will help get everyone back on track: HSGS = Reloader's Pyrite(Fool's Gold) | |||
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Quote: It never ceases to amaze me how many people there are that "know something for a fact" which just isn't so at all. There are fewer who, when they discover that their "fact" is indeed NOT a fact, will persist in their erroneous beliefs, or indeed, become more shrill in their mainenance of error! Now, Hot Core, I will agree with your assertion that using PRE will indeed generally result in the adoption of a SAFE load!! However, I will challenge your belief that such a load is in fact the MAXIMUM SAFE LOAD in any given rifle. It may be, but it might also be considerably under what is safe in a given gun. For one thing, one doesn't even know how hard the brass is in the lot of cases you chose to use as the standard. For example, I have seen 7X57mm Mauser loads which were quite safe and useable in Win. and Remington cases that would cause loose primer pockets in Norma brass. Unless the brass you are loading is from the exact same lot number as the factory round you fire to use as the standard, you have no applicable standard at all. In addition, all the brass you plan to load would have to be new and unfired. Since all brass changes hardness each time it is fired and resized, the expansion characteristics and elastic limit continue to change! BTW, as for being a "rooky", I have been loading rifle,handgun, and shotgun ammo since 1953, and muzzleloaders since 1952. My ammo has always performed as well as, and usually better than, anything any factory ever produced with the exception of .38 wadcutrter and .45 ACP Ball-Match ammo which cannot be equaled by handloading! All told, I'd place my output of handloads over the years at over 100,000 rounds. I have slowed down a lot recently, and now only use up about 1000 primers per year these days. | ||
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Quote: Actually, the factory-loaded .30/30 round is loaded to about 38, 000 PSI, plus or minus. I would NOT want to shoot anything in a M94 Win. or Marlin 336 that exceeds about 45,000 PSI, NOT because the actions aren't strong enough, but because I'd be afraid of bulged chambers, particularly in the M 94 Win. | ||
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eldeguello, Read back and you will see that I measured factory ammo after it was fired in my factory chamber (before it was reamed to AI). I spoke to my smith and he said the PR portion of the chamber was not reamed. Therefore the factory ammo measured after being fired in my factory chamber should be a good starting point. Hotcore, I have not tried the primer trick, but will. Thanks to all that are contributing to this thread. I am learning alot. Kevin. | |||
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None meant, none taken. | |||
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I have learned a lot by reading Ackley, but it is now generally acknowledged that many of his loads are way over the top. Some have suggested (only partly tongue-in-cheek) that his methodology was to load any Ackley Improved cartridge until the primer fell out, then back off 0.1gr!  Setting aside any comments on Ackley's reloading "enthusiasm", in the years since the book you mention was published, testing methods have improved greatly (peizoelectics, etc.). Now, some may say that load reductions are the result of lawyers, but that is only part of the story. For $US 189, perhaps you might consider sticking a removeable strain gauge on your rifle RSI PressureTrace and letting us know what you find! HTH jpb Quote: | |||
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eldeguello, The SAAMI spec for the 30-30 (30 WCF) is ~ 38,000 CUP. Copper Units of Pressure DO NOT equal Pounds Per Square Inch. CUP is ALMOST always lower than PSI. Assuming a measurement system difference (CUP to PSI) of ~ 15%, 38,000 CUP is equal roughly to 45,000 psi. Not trying to start anything, just want to point out the FACT that CUP and PSI are NOT the same thing. HotCore I have received no emails. My email addy is deactivated right now anyway. If you like, please PM the "primer trick" information to me. I promise I won't share it with anyone, if that is your wish. ASS_CLOWN | |||
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PSI and CUP are definitely not the same thing. A reasonably good conversion for ANSI/SAAMI rifle data is SAAMI PSI = -17,902 + 1.515 x SAAMI CUP. By that formula, which is derived from SAAMI data, 38,000 CUP is about 39,500 PSI. The point where PSI = CUP is about 35,000. Above that, PSI is the larger number. Below that, CUP is the larger number. And Hot Core, since your PRE system is calibrated, how about publishing some PSI numbers? If it's really calibrated, that should be no problem. And can we or can we not use factory ammo as a "limit sample"? You have said that we can, and you have said that we cannot. Which is it? Muzzle velocity does not go up linearly with powder charge. If you have 11% more case capacity, then something less than 11% increase in MV is a reasonable expectation. Here we have Hot Core congratulating Deke on getting 23% more MV! Hot Core, what are you going to tell Deke if he follows your advice and destroys his rifle? That he really looks better with only one eye? | |||
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ASSCLOWN, I measured a case that was fired w/37.5gr of 3031 (I had already resized the 38gr case to see what my die sizes them to). You hit the nail on the head, betw 48.8-49.0gr water for the fired R-P case. I realize the 3031 is fast, but I was duplicating Ackley's load with a fast powder that might work well w/100gr bullets (Horn100SJ's in particular that Ackley did not provide load data for) that I am also developing (plinking and coyotes). With the Horn150 I got 2615fps w/3031 and Ackley listed 2700fps (with who knows what 150gr bullet)..... H4895 is my first choice with the 150's, but Ackley does not provide data for it. Ackley does list a 150gr load w/4320 which I do have, but he only lists 2500fps which is not in the velocity range I was hoping to get. Just for experimental purposes maybe I will load up the 4320 (using HotCores primer trick) up to 40gr (Ackley's load) to see what kind of PRE I get (maybe stop at .0020" PRE vs the .0024" PRE I got with the 3031) for comparison sake. What do you think? BTW, Are your calculations and/or pressure formula somthing you could send me in a PM? Deke. | |||
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When the case head expands you are reaching the elastic limit of the brass with that brass, chamber, and loading. In any event it is a point to stop and reflect on what you are doing. Hope that the 94 Winchester will only bulge the chamber. If the barrel lets go it will take the tips off your thumb and fingers. Good luck1 | |||
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Quote: Agreed! IF the 38,000 figure I was quoting (off the top of my head, from memory only) was indeed 38,000 C.U.P., then it does not equate to 38,000 PSI. | ||
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I think 2600 with a 150-grain bullet is at least the equivalent of a factory-loaded .300 Savage, and you can't SAFELY do much better than that with a .30/30 case of any configuration, no matter what loads you try! | ||
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The point at which PSI = C.U.P. also differs considerably from one cartridge to the next, and between propellants as well. For example, C.U.P. and PSI are almost exactly equivalent in medium and low-pressure .45/70 loads. | ||
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Quote: Quite true! If the chamber is enlarged, then there is no baseline for comparison. But in the same chamber, an increase in powder charge of, say 5%, will produce a comparable increase in velocity (up to a point at which increses in velocity level off, stop, or even reverse!!), BUT the increase in pressure will be on the order of 10%, or double the percentage of velocity increase!! | ||
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HSGS = Reloaders Pyrite(Fool's Gold) ... Quote:Quote: Hey Rookie eldeguello, What exactly will the Marlin "tell you when you have arrived at the max. load threshold for THAT INDIVIDUAL rifle"? Just brought the "Classic" got-you-figured-out question back up front to give you another shot at it. ... Current Prediction: Either "ZERO Response", or a meaningless bunch of nothing relevant to that statement of his, basically Full-of-Beans! | |||
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