I am a rookie to reloading and made a rookie mistake by having multiple powder containers out at once. I inadvertently mixed about half a hopper of H4895 with basically a full 1 lb. of Bullseye. So not that much of the rifle powder in with the pistol. I am assuming and going to act on the logic that this powder is now trash and needs to be disposed of. I did want to see if anybody had any experience with this weak rifle to pistol blend though. With the minimal rifle powder in there and the slower burn rate, would the load for a 45ACP be dangerous? I am not too worried about accuracy, I can deal with that on my own. Thanks

If it were my powder, I would treat it like a deceased K-9. Take it out and bury it.

How much is a lb of powder? And what is the value of your well being?

After 35 years of reloading without incident I did a similar thing last year. Emptied a nearly full hopper of H110 into nearly full pound of H4831. I knew better than to have two different powders out but got lax. It happens. Spread it on the lawn for fertilizer.

Mart

Dump it out and buy some more. Chalk it up as a learning opportunity!

Something else you might consider, if it is a very small bit of rifle powder...you could treat it as if 100% Bullseye and use normal Bullseye loads IF shooting the ammo through revolvers, not semi or full automatics. None of the charges will be "over pressure" that way, but some may turn out to be "squibs".

When any round fired has an unusual sound, or can't be seen to strike on or near the target, you would have to open the cylinder, empty it, and check the bore to be sure there is no bullet stuck in the barrel.

So obviously, I hope, the ammo could not be used for hunting, self-defense, or anything like that. Plinking at a low rate of fire would be the only feasible safe use, and then only if you pay attention when shooting.

The way obtaining new supplies of powder is in some areas today. it would be a way to still use up that "mixed" powder and maybe get some fun out of it.

Since I am Scottish by descent, I would use it. Treat it like bullseye and you won't have an over pressure problem. Make sure it is mixed completely or you will have a 45 acp case with too much 4895, which won't burn at all. Hardly.

Never run a test. The grs of 4895 are going to be much heavier (denser) than the flakes of bulleye. If you fibrate the container wouldn't the 4895 work to the bottom? You can't really separate 2 flake powders or to stick powders but I would think you could separate the stick from flake.

Not a good thing to have happen. Bullseye can be sifted out of the 4895.
Get a piece of window screening and sift the powders.
Another method id to use a straw and blow the Bullseye out of the 4895.
If you find this too hard to do, throw the powders out.
Mixing the two is very bad Ju Ju.

DO NOT use the powder as if it was all Bullseye.

Using a mix of two powders can be very unpredictable. One powder can actually accelerate the burning rate of the other. When it comes to explosives, the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts - synergism. Although I cannot speak specifically for the two powders involved, it would not be unheard of for the results of such a practice to prove catastrophic.

I'm a wallet wise Brit as much as any of my countrymen and hate to see money wasted or a bargain passed by...

But TWO RULES for my reloading:

1) I never buy used powder cans at auction sales as you can never be sure what it is and I won't buy part used tins face to face from other shooters.

2) If powder gets mixed or contaminated I throw it away.

I don't like the thought that I passed a bargain at 1)., but to be honest peace of mind is worth more money to me.

small price to pay to keep eyes and fingers ... dispose of it properly ... don't put it in a small hole, as it will likely "burn" the ground .. don't spread near food garden or fruit trees... but *I* wouldnt reuse it

quote:

Originally posted by Rapidrob:
Not a good thing to have happen. Bullseye can be sifted out of the 4895.
Get a piece of window screening and sift the powders.
Another method id to use a straw and blow the Bullseye out of the 4895.
If you find this too hard to do, throw the powders out.
Mixing the two is very bad Ju Ju.

+ 1 Sift out the flake.

Mistakes happen. Don't compound it by even THINKING about using it. Spread it on your garden or in the yard and move-on.

You guys do whatever you want with your mixed powders. I knew when I posted my comment about using it that a lot of you would be horrified.

C'est la vie.

Isn't it Hornady which sells ammo using blended regular powders, to obtain a bit extra velocity? They say it is a "special powder", but in reality it is blended for them specially using two or more regular powders.

I know two folks who have won matches using powders they had accidentally mixed. One won a 600 yard match at Camp Perry with his. Another won several benchrest matchs with his.

You believe what you've read, and I'll believe what science and experience tell me.

Though it is true that a faster burning powder will accelerate the burning of a lower burning rate powder to a degree, I don't believe it for a minute when anyone suggests that it will accelerate the burning rate of the slower burning powder to the point where it is burning faster than the faster of the two powders does by itself.

If it does, I don't know how come all the big guns on our WWII battleships didn't explode. I seem to recall they used a priming charge of one powder and a main charge of another. (That's slightly different than freely mixing the two, but still relevant.)

Anyway, just be guided by whatever you feel best. That's what almost everyone who works up maximum charges does anyway.

And if you live near enough by that you don't have to try to ship it, any of you who accidentally mix powders would be welcome to give it to me just as long as you know for sure WHICH powders you mixed.

It's a cooperation between Hornady and Hodgdon that use the blended powders. Sometimes as many as four different blends of various speed powders.

With that said I've been using a lot of the 867 surplus powder which is very very slow. I use it with faster burning powder boosters. It's very predictable.

I've been told that powder companies for decades have used blended powders without us knowing

I'll have to agree with AC if it's mostly Bullseye to treat it like Bullseye. You do this buy testing in very small amounts first.

I had heard that "blended" powders are actually combined before the final kernaling of the powder in order to maintain the desired burn characteristics and to keep it homogenous in shipping and storage.

without testing the mix to find its pressure rise curve it is just a guess as to what you might end up with. We know that Bullseye has a very fast pressure rise - will it go high enough fast enough to cause the slower powder to detonate? I don't know but I do know that the Bullseye will ignite first because it is one of the easiest powders to light off of all of them.

Contaminated powder is expensive fertilizer but in my humble opinion it is good for little else.

Double post - sorry

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
I had heard that "blended" powders are actually combined before the final kernaling of the powder in order to maintain the desired burn characteristics and to keep it homogenous in shipping and storage.

without testing the mix to find its pressure rise curve it is just a guess as to what you might end up with. We know that Bullseye has a very fast pressure rise - will it go high enough fast enough to cause the slower powder to detonate? I don't know but I do know that the Bullseye will ignite first because it is one of the easiest powders to light off of all of them.

Contaminated powder is expensive fertilizer but in my humble opinion it is good for little else.

Not arguing with you Paul but from talking to Hodgdon they said the exact opposite that's it's not blended in the kernel.

Most all powders have a deterrent coating on them to control the burn rate so I don't see Bullseyes detonating the slower powder. In my blending powder, that is using a fast booster to get a larger volume of slower burning powder to burn better and that is what it does, helps the slower powder burn better. I've carefully raised the booster to see what happens and it was never detonation.

Back to that loaded Hornady ammo with the blended powder and Hodgdon's blended powder, they get a little higher velocity out of some cartridges without exceeding the pressure limit. I don't see that happening with the powder blended into each kernel. That would be, to me, like setting it at one burn rate. It seems the separate blended powder changes burn rate as each different burn rate of powder is lit off. Just my two cents.

Cannuck - I have no doubt that you have a great deal of scientific knowledge and experience but it must not be with explosives, powders, and propellents. Synergism is a well recognized phenomenon.

Synergistic explosive mixtures are used in military ordnance. If you can only put 10 pounds of explosive in the mortar round then you want to get as much explosive potential out of it as possible. A 10 pound synergistic blend can can deliver more explosive energy than 10 pounds of any single explosive in the blend. For example, the most common use of TNT is as one synergistic component in common military explosive compounds such as amatol, ammonal, composition B, composition H6, hexanite, pentolite, picratol, and tetrytol.

Synergistic explosive slurries are used regularly in mining and quarrying. In those industries, vary large amounts of costly explosives are used. Synergistic mixes allow those industries to get several times more "bang for their buck" than they would by using non-synergistic blends. Ammonite is used in quarrying and its a 20/80 mixture of TNT and ammonium nitrate. 30 kilograms of ammonite contains 6 kilograms of TNT and 24 kilograms of ammonium nitrate. The ammonium nitrate is cheap but contains less than half the explosive energy of TNT. In fact, 24 kilograms of ammonium nitrate is equivalent to just over 10 kilograms of TNT. But, by mixing the ammonium nitrate with the TNT the resultant output of 30 kilograms of ammonite becomes equal to that of 20 kilograms of TNT. So when mixed in ammonite, 6kg TNT + 24kg ammonium nitrate (10kg TNT equivalent) = not the energy of 16kg TNT but the energy of 20kg of TNT and at a much lower cost. That is explosive synergism.

More to the point, synergistic compounds and mixes are used for smokeless propellents and powders. Powders using only nitrocellulose as the propellant ingredient are termed single-base. Powders containing a mixture of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin are termed double base. But that's where anything simple ends. The burning rate of powders varies considerably depending on the powder. Pistol powders burn faster than rifle powders and those burn faster than shotgun powders. Yet variations continue within those broad categories. There are many smokeless powders available with many different burning rates. In part the burning rate is determined by granular shape and type but it is also determined by the addition of several other components. Let's not consider components added to reduce smoke, reduced erosion, increase stability etc. There are too many of those to list and they are not directly related to burn rate. Instead, consider components added to increase burning rate and energy output such as nitroguanidine, bis-nitroxyethylnitramine, tetramethylolcyclopentanone, di-ethylene glycol dinitrate, and acetyl cellulose. And components added to reduce burning rate like dibutyl phthalate, akardite, ortho-tolyl urethane, and polyester adipate. These components have a synergistic effect, either positive (the total is MORE than the sum of its parts) or negative (the total is LESS than the sum of its parts).

If Hornady is offering ammunition with mixes of different powders then they must have taken the time and trouble to go through a deliberate development and testing process. Did it ever occur to you that the reason they are able to achieve more velocity without greater pressure is because they are using explosive synergy?

Now to mixing smokeless powders for reloading. It has been done and it can be done. There are countless old articles over several decades in which shooters explain their magic formulas for powder mixes and describe various successes and failures. You can experiment and cautiously work up a suitable load, especially if you have time to take the trouble. Still, I wouldn't recommend it without taking reasonable precautions, using proper safety equipment, an old firearm, and preferably with the aid of pressure measuring equipment. Most people won't go to those lengths to remain safe but most who play with these sort of loads get away without harm. We have all done reckless things and escaped without injury. That doesn't make it the best way to do things. Remember, its all fun and games till.....

However, jcolby, it sounds like you are planning to do something else. You may just get a surprise if you just assume that the mixture you have accidentally made up will be safe to load if treated as though it was totally composed of the fastest burning powder. Your mix may burn slower than you expect, negative synergy, or it may burn faster than you expect, positive synergy. Bottom line is that you don't really know and you can't be sure what will happen. Maybe nothing. Maybe something. Explosive synergy is real. I just hope you don't ruin a rifle or get hurt finding that out.

I used to live by the creed, "There are many old Demo men and there are many bold Demo men. But there aren't many old bold Demo men."

Most everything I have read on AR has at least had some logic to it,,,,,until now.

Never use powder that has been mixed!

For what you might save the problems that could happen far out weigh it; everything from overcharge to undercharge could happen. Stuck bullets, blown up receivers to name a few more.

Would it happen; maybe not, maybe even probably not, but is it worth your fingers, or eyesight of your gun to take that chance

And even if it did not this is not the road you want to take.

Shortcuts have no place in reloading!

Good rule of thumb is that if you have to think about it being a good idea then its not.

Just plan stupid is about the best way to sum up some of the "wisdom" that is being passed on in this post.


And even if it did not it is not worth the risk

I don't see any reason that one couldn't sift out the bullseye very different powders.

quote:

Originally posted by npd345:
Most everything I have read on AR has at least had some logic to it,,,,,until now.

Never use powder that has been mixed!

For what you might save the problems that could happen far out weigh it; everything from overcharge to undercharge could happen. Stuck bullets, blown up receivers to name a few more.

Would it happen; maybe not, maybe even probably not, but is it worth your fingers, or eyesight of your gun to take that chance

And even if it did not this is not the road you want to take.

Shortcuts have no place in reloading!

Good rule of thumb is that if you have to think about it being a good idea then its not.

Just plan stupid is about the best way to sum up some of the "wisdom" that is being passed on in this post.


And even if it did not it is not worth the risk

The sky is falling, the sky is falling. If your number of post is any indication of your experience, I'd be a bit slow to call folks stupid. Remember, you're not talking to your mother.

Remember that "post count" is a poor method to ascertain someone's competence. If Steve Hornady started posting in this thread tomorrow, would you consider him a "newbie" and disregard his opinion because of a low post count? Didn't think so.....



.

If it were me I would sift to save the pound, but I am a bit of a penny pincher. It would probably be a good idea to sift the bullseye over a smaller afterwards screen to remove any cut grains which are smaller than the bullseye.

Toss it, it's unpredictable at best.
What are you talking,,$25 or so. A BurgerKing dinner for 2 and an expresso to go.

This is why you don't buy & shoot unkn source reloads from gunshows or garage sales.
So why make up your own...

Just my .02,,,and I'm pretty 'cheap' when it comes to recovering componets too.
But mixtures of powders and the 'guess the powder in the can' game are outside the limits.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by npd345:
Most everything I have read on AR has at least had some logic to it,,,,,until now.

Never use powder that has been mixed!

For what you might save the problems that could happen far out weigh it; everything from overcharge to undercharge could happen. Stuck bullets, blown up receivers to name a few more.

Would it happen; maybe not, maybe even probably not, but is it worth your fingers, or eyesight of your gun to take that chance

And even if it did not this is not the road you want to take.

Shortcuts have no place in reloading!

Good rule of thumb is that if you have to think about it being a good idea then its not.

Just plan stupid is about the best way to sum up some of the "wisdom" that is being passed on in this post.


And even if it did not it is not worth the risk

The sky is falling, the sky is falling. If your number of post is any indication of your experience, I'd be a bit slow to call folks stupid. Remember, you're not talking to your mother.

I have been reloading since I was 12 I am now 54. I reload for 14 different calibers. I can not even remember when I last even shot a factory round except in a handgun (city paid for those!).

I have easily reloaded over a 100,000 rounds of handgun and rifle ammo. When I first started with a State L.E. agency loading ammo was one of my jobs. If I never see another 38 Special case I will die happy.

I don't consider myself an expert. Not even close. I have learned to be patient, not to have any distractions around and to use commen sense when reloading.

I wish more on here did not consider themselves experts. There are a few ,that have posted, that I do consider experts; Jeffeosso and Grenadier. I would follow their advice on this subject.

I will say it again;

if you have to think about it being a good idea then its not.

If number of posts is to be used to judge someone, you have certainly proved that someone with a lot of posts, say 3000+, does not mean he knows anything.

I always was fascinated by chamber casting metal. That whilst containing metals that all melted at much HIGHER temperatures (so you'd think its minimum melting temperature was at least that of the lowest melting) actually melts at the temperature of boling water!

Go figure! You used to see joke teaspoons made of it here once, in my youth some fifty years ago. Buy them leave them out. Somebody stirs their tea (this IS Britland) and the end of the thing has melted off.

So I suppose that is a 'synergy"?

As to the number of posts-

The telling fact to me is that there is one post and no further communications or follow up from the thread starter.

It's just bait tossed in front to elicit a response.

While the mixing of powders may be the stock and trade of powder companies, it should not be practiced by reloaders. He who does, in my opinion, is just foolish.

mix it with a pound of PEANUT BUTTER and spread on bread --place at rat runways in the barn and eliminate the rats/mice.

While I would toss it myself because I am a cookbook reloader and I depend on my eyes and fingers to make a living...there are folks on here qualified to answer the question. While mixing powders is akin to self-treatment when sick...and viewed like substance abuse by some on this page...there are those smart enough to do it and I know a few that post here {whom are experts (actually the most knowledgeable expert reloader I know does it)} that do it regularly...they just don't publicize it due to the negative connotations...as you see from this thread.

I will throw in...that if there were a powder that I would think would be very unlikely to produce a detonation in the scenarios that AC and dpcd say is safe...it would be H4895. And I consider those 2 as extremely savvy.

I do agree with Rusty that the the thread is likely a bait.

After being sure it was well mixed, I'd load it in a heartbeat in practice rounds using non-max Bullseye data. Or, even better, you can load it in light shot charge 12 ga shotgun shells.

This is equal to duplex reloading. It is not worth the risk to load this powder mix. Treat as a dog with rabies - it will bite you!!

quote:

Originally posted by npd345:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by npd345:
Most everything I have read on AR has at least had some logic to it,,,,,until now.

Never use powder that has been mixed!

For what you might save the problems that could happen far out weigh it; everything from overcharge to undercharge could happen. Stuck bullets, blown up receivers to name a few more.

Would it happen; maybe not, maybe even probably not, but is it worth your fingers, or eyesight of your gun to take that chance

And even if it did not this is not the road you want to take.

Shortcuts have no place in reloading!

Good rule of thumb is that if you have to think about it being a good idea then its not.

Just plan stupid is about the best way to sum up some of the "wisdom" that is being passed on in this post.


And even if it did not it is not worth the risk

The sky is falling, the sky is falling. If your number of post is any indication of your experience, I'd be a bit slow to call folks stupid. Remember, you're not talking to your mother.

I have been reloading since I was 12 I am now 54. I reload for 14 different calibers. I can not even remember when I last even shot a factory round except in a handgun (city paid for those!).

I have easily reloaded over a 100,000 rounds of handgun and rifle ammo. When I first started with a State L.E. agency loading ammo was one of my jobs. If I never see another 38 Special case I will die happy.

I don't consider myself an expert. Not even close. I have learned to be patient, not to have any distractions around and to use commen sense when reloading.

I wish more on here did not consider themselves experts. There are a few ,that have posted, that I do consider experts; Jeffeosso and Grenadier. I would follow their advice on this subject.

I will say it again;

if you have to think about it being a good idea then its not.

If number of posts is to be used to judge someone, you have certainly proved that someone with a lot of posts, say 3000+, does not mean he knows anything.

Wow, it's always interesting to make a post regarding someone's tacky name calling and then get to listen to their knuckle-dragging chest pounding brags about how they've been reloading for several decades and reloaded more ammo than Remington and Winchester combined. To paraphrase your comment about a person's number of post, does the alledged fact that you've been reloading for a couple of centuries mean that you have a couple of hundred years experience or one years experience 200 times.

Actually, my post didn't come down on either side of the "use it, don't use it" question. It merely took exception to your overly dramatized name calling.

Throw it away

Didn't know Remington and Winchester reloaded ammo

cute,

As Rusty stated if this was a real question where is the original poster?

Just spent a little time playing with a 45 case of both bullseye and 4895.

What I found was with much if an vibration the powder will separate. While a given amount of 4895 in a bullseye load might not be an issue a bullseye load that happens to be only (or majority) 4895 might be.

It took me only a few minutes to separate my two powders. I took a piece of the wife's parchment paper and folded it 3 times. So I had a valley on each end and a rise in the middle. Then took a soda straw as suggested and lightly blew the bullseye over the hill. Depending on how much you had you might need to do it in several passes.

I WOULD NOT use them mixed. However if you have the time and powder is hard to come by I would separate time. If you have no time and/or plenty of powder pitch it. Either way learn from it.

Just a thought if I had a bunch of powder I bet my little airbrush unit would make quick work of the blowing.

quote:

Wow, it's always interesting to make a post regarding someone's tacky name calling and then get to listen to their knuckle-dragging chest pounding brags about how they've been reloading for several decades and reloaded more ammo than Remington and Winchester combined. To paraphrase your comment about a person's number of post, does the alledged fact that you've been reloading for a couple of centuries mean that you have a couple of hundred years experience or one years experience 200 times.

Actually, my post didn't come down on either side of the "use it, don't use it" question. It merely took exception to your overly dramatized name calling.

Wasbeeman,
I was not trying to start to a pissing match with you, but apparantly I have.
The "stupid" comment post was about my feelings on the advice not on the poster, If it did not come accross that way to you I am sorry.

As per Ted's post which I think we both enjoyed, apprantly I have reloaded more rounds than Winchester and Remington!

The math in your last post confused me (not hard to do).

It is not hard to load over a 100,000 rounds when you are loaded for around 200 officers. The officer I was working with ended up starting his own loading company for a short time; Nevins Ammuntion. In my last LE job we once did 35,000 rounds in a little over 6 weeks It is not hard when you are doing 300-400 rounds per hour, for 6 hours a day! It not hard to do a lot more, but that was the production leval I was comfartable with. This was when the whole department was switching from revolvers to auto's. Lots and Lots of practice! I don't like looking at 9mm cases any more as well.

I am sure there are many posters who have loaded several times as many shells; it not hard especially for a compatition shooter.

I guess the "number of posts" comment got my hair standing up a bit and I responded as such,

I hope we can call it square from here on.

Shane

Put it on your wifes roses.

You might try using the fact that the Bullseye is a flake powder and the 4895 is tubular. Pour the mix on a piece of cardboard or plywood, elevate one edge and tap on the board. The 4895 will roll much more readily than the Bullseye will slide. The Bullseye also has much more surface per unit volume than the 4895. You could use that difference to blow the Bullseye away. Before trying to use the mix I would give serious consideration to the fact that reduced loads of slow burning tubular extruded powders have been know to detonate which might occur in this case.