The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Cost of testing loads for accuracy???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I posted the results on the varmint forum answering the question posted here about the 22.250 with heavy bullets.. and a fast twist.... one guy, who is new, was asking me why didn't I test bullets with smaller increments.... I don't know if the person is just new, or what.... but what I considered a dumb question by a newbie, actually brought up the fact, that a lot of people may not know how much time, effort and expense may go into to testing something... and then shared with fellow forum members at no cost..... I'll refer those interested to the thread on varmint hunting forum...here on AR... https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5411043/m/146100185 But using this example of testing for accuracy with a fast twist barrel in 22.250 Tested 6 bullet weights Tested 15 powders.... in two grain increments.. Took two 5 shot groups to see how they grouped for accuracy.... That alone was 3150 bullets down range! The primers, powder, bullets... and not figuring the brass costs, as that is reloadable say 10 times.... the cost was well over $600.00! That is not counting handloading time.. range time... targets are cheap when you print them out off the internet...so I don't figure those in..... But that 3150 rounds also is half the useful life of that barrel also.... it was worth it to me, as I planned on replacing it with another just like it, as I think I need a fast twist 22.250 in life.... But people might just get an idea of how much time and expense that went into all the Blue Dot load info that I posted on line, when I was doing that to share with fellow AR members... I guess the bottom line is.... that we have a lot of other AR members here whom take a lot of time and expense in testing out stuff... and usually share it with other members for no cost to them! I really think those that use that knowledge ought to get an idea of the time and expense that fellow members take to share it with us... A special hats off goes to Steve Riccardelli, for all the fine info he has available to those on the internet....plus all the time he spends posting it, and maintaining it... in front of his computer... cheers seafire  PS.. this isn't a gripe folks, just bringing something important to people's attention here.... however, the seafire donations box is now open for those rich folks, who want to part with some of their money that may use this stuff.... actually any and all donations will go to seafire jr, and his Boy Scout account... he has his 12 yr old heart set on being an eagle scout... and so far he is already half way there...he may qualify to Eagle at 14 or 15... when a lot of those that Eagle don't do so until 17.... only 4% of all Boy Scouts make it to Eagle Scout...  | ||
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Seafire, your point is well taken! I wish I had a nickle for every time I saw a newbie asking "what powder can I get that will work WELL for 3 or 4 different rifles or handguns so that I don't have to get more than 1 pound"! Or another one," give me your best load for x rifle and y bullet so I don't have to do load developement"! My stock reply is there are no shortcuts! Any manual out there will tell them as much as someone with the same rifle make, caliber, barrel length or what have you. Your research on the blu-dot loads is priceless, but at great expense to you! The same goes for Steve Riccardelli, his data must have cost him buccu bucks. if you run, you just die tired It's not that life is so short, it's that death is sooo long! Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short. Your faithful dog | |||
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Thanks Seafire. I totally agree. Some guys come to this forum and ask for everything on a silver platter. If it was possible, I'm sure some wouldn't even think twice about asking for us to come pull the trigger for them. And then not bothering to come back and say, THANKS! | |||
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Seafire, I agree 100%. I want you to know I always appreciate the info you share with the blue dot loads and what everyone shares as well. As for the bot and his Eagle Scout good show. Both of my younger brothers were/are Eagle scouts. My youngest achieved it rather young I believe 14. The other took the whole time allowed. I myself was not a scout. Don Nelson Sw. PA. | |||
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Seafire.. your point is well taken. It certainly takes a great deal of time and patience to find that one load that makes my rifle "sing." But I have also learned some tricks to reduce the amount of reloading required to find the best load, especially since I got the chrony. Over 3,000 shots down range finding a load is a few more than I care to shoot for load developement. I have nothing against range shooting... the practice alone is worth it... But after a few hundred loads, I'm ready to go hunting!!!  ______________________________ Well, they really aren't debates... more like horse and pony shows... without the pony... just the whores. 1955, Top tax rate, 92%... unemployment, 4%. "Beware of the Free Market. There are only two ways you can make that work. Either you bring the world's standard of living up to match ours, or lower ours to meet their's. You know which way it will go." by My Great Grandfather, 1960 Protection for Monsanto is Persecution of Farmers. | |||
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I do it for the fun of it, so never consider the cost. The thing that gets me is when someone asks a question, complains that they aren't getting a fast enough, good enough, or thorough enough response, and then finally never bothers to say thank you. To me the time is more valuable than the money, and it seems to be even harder to come by as of late. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Well I am in between Paul and Mike on my attitude here...on the subject.... Some of the special projects like this fast twist barrel on a 22.250... well that I did a lot more thorough testing than I did with just a regular rifle.. like a good load for a 30/06... there is plenty of info around... What there isn't a lot of is info on a fast twist 22.250... with a wide variety of bullets for match and long range shooting... I also burnt up a lot of time, doing this on a 6mm Rem with a fast twist...but it is no where near as complete, as their are a lot more bullets to encompass with a 6mm rifle...but I did test 15 powder with one bullet & weight... 75 grain HP Hornady..... but Paul you hit the rest of the point right on the head of the nail... funny, I don't mind doing it for guys I know on here.. that have been here a long time... but some newbie, whom you know 9 out of 10 times won't be here in 60 days.... and yet they complain about what they thought you didn't do thorough enough... Hey Cash up front, $100.00 an hour.. they pay for the components and for the rifle barrel.. I'll test and supply all the info they want... I just won't let them have exclusivity on the info... and they sign a waiver that the information is strictly for academic purposes only.... | |||
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Seafire has a very good point about the time & money involved in the process of load testing. I have & am still in the process of load testing for several rifles. I am in it more so for my own curiousity, but I would readily share any of my findings with anyone that was interested. Sometimes I go ahead & share it with some of my friends that are not interested. Just the price of being one of my friends, I guess (LOL). I myself do spend a alot of my time & money in the pursuit of accurate loads for my rifles & I would not hesitate to do the same for any friend of mine, I would prefer that they provide the componets, but would readily contribute my time, experience, & equipment. As with any hobby a person likes to talk & share information with others that have the same hobby. I am very appreciative of this forum & the people who take the time to provide & participate in it Thanks | |||
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How many shots can you fire at the range? How much money does it cost to miss a day's work? How many guns have you bought that you have never fired? This is an expensive hobby, in time AND money. I think I will leave work early today and go to the range. I think I will go to the gun show Saturday, so I need to stop at the cash machine. | |||
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proud member of the 4% club. That is a very worthwhile goal your son has in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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I think I will eat worms and die  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Greetings, Seafire, I may have been the newbie you are referring to. I assume no offense intended, surely none taken. I've been reloading for 47 year, and that's a lot of powder and shot, so I truly appreciate what all serious reloaders go through. I was addressing the value of ladders, and the increments used therein. I've only been using this method a short time, learned of it here, so THERE! It seems to be such a logical and useful tool, but I'm just getting started on it. I use several manuals, select one or two bullets appropriate for the intended use, and two or three powders. Generally I try to use powders fairly far apart on the burning rate chart. I start with seating about .005" off for most hunting loads, and don't vary that until the powder tests are near complete. I rarely test different primers. I'm pretty much a Fed. guy, except for some Winchester primers. My big guys (375, 458) seem to like these better. I usually load 10-14 rounds about .3 grains apart, everything else equal, and always chrono. For big cases, increments of .4-.5 grains is OK. I have never done this and failed to see a cluster at some point. (I keep a target at the bench, and spotting scope, and mark each shot.) If this has been covered in depth previously, I apologize and will search it out. If not, I think it would be a useful discussion. Thanks | |||
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Sea, if 3150 is about half the rounds that you get out of the useful life of a barrel, I gotta start getting my barrels where you do. Bob | |||
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Well we all have different standards on the life and accuracy of a barrel... I am not a bench shooter... but I have found out that a different load, can add to the life of a barrel once the throat starts washing out... case in point, a Ruger 77 Mk2.. which has about 7 or 8,000 rounds down the barrel... went from 2 inch groups at 100yds, down to 1/2 inch or so, when I changed the load to 29 grains of W 748 and a 55 grain SP or a 60 grain bullet... As I posted somewhere else on here in the last week or so... the last time I went to the range, I ran across a guy who had bought the Ruger VT I had traded in on my Savage 12 BVSS... chambered in 223 Originally I was going to rebarrel it, but had stopped in to see what I could get on trade for it toward a new rifle, just to have covered all of my bases.... I had gotten it for $300.00 at a gun show locally from an old guy, with a 8 x 32 Tasco Custom Shop scope on it.. it was 6 yrs old at the time... He told me at the time, that he hadn't kept track of how many rounds he had put down the barrel... but he said he had used it a lot... Well the accuracy just stayed for a long time.. I know I had put 8,000 rounds thru it....I was offered $400.00 for it, when I paid $300.00 for it, and had put the 8K rounds thru it and got to keep the scope! This deal wasn't going to happen twice... So once I realized that it was my old rifle.. I was talking to the guy whom had purchased it... He told me that he had put 2,000 rounds down it so far...and his load was 25 grains of H 335 and a 55 grain BTip...he said he had tried severl loads that shot okay before he got this one, that worked... He showed me the groups when he went down range.. which were about 3/8ths an inch or so.. That is when I told him that it was the rifle I use to own... as he bought it where I traded it in at... It is a first year Ruger VT with a blued receiver, stainless steel barrel and no varmint trigger in it...so there aren't a lot of them on there, plus I have a mark I put on the stock to denote it was my rifle once a long time ago.. But quick addition shows that between me and the third owner, that makes 10,000 rounds at least down that barrel.. after I bought it used and it was 6 or 7 yrs old at the time.. and the previous user had claimed he shot it a lot, hence the price I got it for... I am not a fanatic about Barrel Cleaning also.. In the field, I just run a bore snake down the barrel about every 50 shots or so, with some gunoil on it, and that is about it... I try not to heat them up, and usually switch between 3 rifles, or at least two, when I am high volume shooting at prairie dogs and sage rats... I usually change a barrel, like I would buy a new set of tires.. not based on mileage, but when the tread gets down low enough that I don't consider them safe anymore... The Barrel on the 22.250 mentioned above.. is a Pac Nor if that matters... cheers seafire | |||
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Cummins: Good show! | |||
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You guys are full of $#!+. You think this is an expensive hobby until you price a new bass boat. Heck, I can shoot all day, and reload all week for what some guys pay for a T-time. JMO, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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Well Dutch, I am not living the life styles of the rich and famous here in Hooterville Oregon.... So since I don't bass boat, or have spendy tea off times... this is about expensive as my hobby world gets..  | |||
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I loaded my first rounds in '65 and have helped quite a few friends get started. Never had any idea how many new loaders seem to think there are hidden or secret conbinations that give "best accuracy" or "highest velocity" in their .379 Accley Super-Whopper for all around hunting purposes until I started reading questions on the web. My God, don't today's new guys ever read ANYTHING before starting? How far into any loading manual, or even a magazine article, do we get before it comes clear that reloading takes experimentation for EACH firearm? Can't they figger out for themselves that load determination isn't a cut and dried science. They seem to believe that it's like, take this case and put this bullet this deep and this much of that powder and use this primer and all like calibers will shoot great but we old hands and mean ol' loading manual guys are keeping it hidden from newbys? ARRGGGG! This generation has had so much handed to them, so easily with little real effort on their part by their elders they have come to expect a free ride to all things as a matter of course. To them the real world must be a magical but puzzling place! Ok, sorry about the rant. A little bit anyway. | |||
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I bought a salmon boat in 1988 for $850 and was $4k total by the time it was outfitted. If I went fishing 10 times a year for 4 hours for 5 years, I was paying $20/hour, just for the boat. I did not make $20/hour in 1988 at work, but it cost me more than $20/ hour just to sit in a boat with a pole in my hands. That really made me sick, but when I looked at all the other fishermen, they bad better boats, fished less often, and had worse jobs. | |||
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Jim, don't appologise, you're intirely correct! Today's youth expect quick answers, AND they expect the world to GIVE them a living. To actually work for something is a foriegn concept. TNSTAAFL. Bob Hienlien used that phrase in " The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress". Hardly the first time anyone used it, but I adopted it in some of my sig lines. It is of course There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Seafire and Ricardelli do a lot of expensive testing in an attempt to take some of the experimentation out of our load developement. Kind of narrows the choices down for us. But those loads were only accurate in THEIR rifles! if you run, you just die tired It's not that life is so short, it's that death is sooo long! Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short. Your faithful dog | |||
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Again, I'm afraid I have to call BS! Have you any idea how many wage-slaves are working themselves to an early heart attack, somewhere in some stinking city high-rise; with the only thing keeping them going is the thought that one day, if they save all their pennies, they get to live in a place like you and I live? Heck, collecting stamps is more expensive than what we do. In all seriousness, since I started using the Quickload / Barrel time computer analysis, my experimentation has been reduced by at least 80%. My shooting skills are getting rusty, but look at all the money I'm saving.....  FWIW, Dutch.Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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Hey Jim, Just got off the phone with a guy in Kings Mountain, NC who tells me it is a bit cool.  If you happen to see any links to rookie green's(dan newberry) "optimum charge weight" method, take a look at it. The first thing he did was plagerize from the "never improved upon Creighton Audette Method" without giving the man due credit. But then he down-graded the likely-hood of anyone getting the best possible accuracy with some of his strange nonsensical ideas. He would argue `til the cows came home on how great "his method" was. But the thing that got him laughed off this Board was telling folks, "I tried xx.xgr of (whatever)Powder in a (whatever) cartridge rifle and you can just load it in your rifle, it will be the most accurate round you have ever used and be SAFE in all rifles! He never understood why or how that could be a SAFETY issue - pitiful! --- I at first was ready to give Seafire a hard time about "passing the plate". However, I think he has a valid point that shooting can be expensive, especially with some of the components I see folks championing. And goooood gosh, the true Big Bore(ing) folks with their shoulder cannons do shoot a "wad"  of cash down range.I enjoy a deal. And occasionally there are some excellent bargains out there. Roger is constantly bringing us info about excellent buys on Powder. And if you all have not tried the 0.224" 50gr & 55gr and 0.243" 80gr Rem PLHPs, you are in for a special treat both accuracy wise and billfold wise. Now as far as "passing the plate", I'm still ready to PTL(a Charlotte based TV church rip-off)(pass the loot) for a Blue Dot Load Manual. Doesn't need to be Leather Bound and doesn't need to be fancy. I'll even pay for one with Roger's finger prints all over it. So, quit whinning and get to printing if you want me to PTL. | |||
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How many times have you seen a post asking for "pet loads" for a whatever caliber? I do accuracy workups for guys that don't have the time/patience/sense to do it and you should hear them b)!@#($U*) about the cost. But, then, when I explain about 3 different bullets, 5 trips to the range, etc. etc. and if they don't like it, I don't have to take their job. After all, it is a HOBBY! An old pilot, not a bold pilot, aka "the pig murdering fool" | |||
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Well Hot Core... Passing the plate... it will just go to seafire jr's boy scout account as I said... But I would be more than happy to forward you all of my blue dot load data, just for the asking..... but it won't be in a book form and it won't definitely be leather bound... Actually last spring, Seafire Jr. was allowed to post something here on AR about his Troops annual fishing derby and the generous people on AR actually sent the little guy checks that totaled about $200.00 I believe... I think he got about 5 donations for $20.00 and 10 or so for $10.00.... I am also working on data for SR 4759 and 2400 powder right now.. IMR 4227 was in the mix, but Hodgdon is going to quit making it, and they are going to instead cancel the name H 4227, but put H 4227 in containers, marked IMR 4227, since the IMR name sold better... At the moment, some of the info that will go into those booklets are loaning the info to a project, I want to call something along the lines of Varmint Hunting on the Cheap... basically for high volume shooting on prairie dogs and sage rats.. in a cost effective manner... while using centerfire cartridges and accurate but cheaper bullets.. One of my Ruger 223s, has so far had about 1800 rounds down the barrel in the last 60 days on that project...I was at the range this afternoon, until the fog rolled in and you couldn't even see the targets at 100 yds, and could barely see the 50 yr targets I had posted to shoot at with my CZ while the Ruger's barrel cooled off... winter sucks some days... | |||
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I guess it depends on how you look at it. Shooter like Seafire are not loading to relay the info, they are enjoying what they are doing. These guys would be doing the same bench work even if there was no internet, IMO. Seafire, I appreciate you and other guys on this board posting findings. To a point there are some magic combinations. Varget for 22-250, 4831/4350 in 06 cases. RL7 with a light crimp in 22 Hornet, N-133 in 6PPC. Further than that, I say now go to the bench and find your node, because no two guns are the same. I do not mind a saying, I would try powder XXXX and start at XX grains (well below max). My load might be horrible in your gun, is the next thing that gets said. I did not have anyone to teach me how to reload. Books and boards like this were what I had to go to. Everyone here has been helped at least a little along the way. Everyone loaded their first round, had that finicky gun, that someone suggested a combo and got it going for you. I have only been reloading for about 15 years. I now have all wildcats or Ackleys in my cabinet. I have been trying to improve my skills and keep challenging my self, shooting, relaoding, case forming. I bet it has been 10 years at least since I killed anything with a store bought centerfire ammo. I guess what I am saying is not all newbies do not appreciate info they get .Sometimes it takes a bunch of there own money and time getting some loads worked up to see what all goes into doing it right, and finding that combo. I relate it to the ass kickings I got from the old man growing up, sometimes it takes 20 years ot understand why he put that foot in my ass. I do not mind helping anyone. When someone does not say thanks, oh well, I figure I just thanked the guy/girl that helped me, again. So guys keep posting data. | |||
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Im with Hot Core, a blue dot manual would be wonderful. I know I have used alot of it, along with all the other advice seafire has given me.I know its not the same as $, but I would like to thank seafire and anyone else who has helped me. | |||
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There is another cost that goes hand-in-hand with the reloading hobby. I don't know if anyone else has had their guns stolen, but I have. Just mass-produced hunting quality guns like Remington, Ithaca and the like. Nothing pricey or rare, just the sentimental value of some guns handed down from my father. They COULD all be replaced with like products at any sporting goods store. But all my years of handloading trial and error went with them. All the meticulous logbooks full of info were now just so much tinder for the woodstove. And the hundreds of rounds of ammo that was custom sized for those weapons had to be broken down into components to start all over again once I acquired other weapons of the same caliber. I don't know about you guys, but I have never stumbled upon an accurate load from the get-go. It usually takes multiple trials of different component combinations. And then when you finally arrive at that perfect blessedness of accuracy some SOB breaks into your home and cleans out your gun collection. Believe me, the insurance check doesn't near cover the loss. I don't know if this is true but perhaps some newbies think that metallic reloading is the same as that for shotshells; look in the book, pick a load, follow the recipe to the letter, all done. Ha, I wish! | |||
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Well guy's I set here in front of my computer for sometime now reading what all of you had to say about this subject. And now if I may say something. Seafire brings up a point that alot of newbies not noing or do they care. It takes time to work up these loads. But there are the ones that do care and are greatful. I guess I fall into the latter. I am pretty new to the game myself. But I keep thinking about what my daddy always said to me and I sure some of yours did to " SON I HAVE BEEN DOWN THAT RAOD " what he was trying to tell me was he had knowledge of what I was trying to do and would share it with me if I would listen. But as a boy and you know what I did. This is some what like the newbies are doing taking what they what and runing. But you know there were a few good kids that listen. I am just sorry it took me 50 some odd years to learn this little bit of wisdom. So to all of you that have giving your time , your money ,and your heart to this hobby I thank you for what you have giving to me and all of the ones that do care. THANKS | |||
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Actually I'm fairly certain I was the "NEWBIE" asking the "DUMB" question. Wow after all the stupid questions I've seen patronized with patient response, this suprises me. And even if it wasn't me, I did ask the same question. I am fully aware of the costs involed in load development, but I am also aware the the main reason most people reload is for "ACCURACY" and even if's not the top priority it is in the top 3. Hence the term LOAD DEVELPMENT." I am fully aware that many of you have been Reloading for longer than I've been alive, So I assumed that I had somehow missed the purpose of all your testing, as it was clearly NOT structured for optimal accuracy or even cost effective Load development. I was trying to be polite. Basicly in an accuracy sense, what you posted was a bunch of random Puzzle pieces, leaving a puzzle with many holes, and hence no clear picture. Then you complain that filling in the holes will be too cost prohibitive. But whats the point of building an unfinished puzzle? (THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF MY POST!) Well, Fine, I agree It is better left to deeper pockets to try Every load combo possible Yes, the info that Steve has on his site is just such data. It has been extreemly benificial to me, I use it regularly and appreciate his generosity in giving it out. All I was asking was what purpose your data served, cause I assumed I had missed something.Let me try my point from another angle, as possibly I was misunderstood as well. Say Hypothetically I was to get on here and leave a post somewhere along the lines of this... I have a 22-250 that only shoots so-so, I want to use H-380 I've tried 35, 37, and 39 grains, and it is not giving me satisafactory accuracy, what should I do? Well, for the sake of this example leave out the myriad of variables that could be affecting accracy, and focus on my efforts thus far. Someone is bound to say,, why dont you give 36, 38, and 40 grains a try. Or even 35.5, 37.5 and 39.5 as well? Am I wrong? NO! well why would they say that. Well obviously because many a rifle's "sweet load" is nowhere as "sweet" a full grain off. If a full grain had no effect on accuracy. balance scales would only need to be accurate to within +/- 1.0 grain. If you have a rifle that is shooting "Good" at 38 gr do you not also try 37.8 and 38.2? Cause maybe just maybe "good" will turn to "great". Well if .2 gr has an effect on accuracy HOW DOES LOAD DEVELOPMENT IN 2 GRAIN INCREMENTS HELP? Clearly I'm stating the obvious, but it illustrates my point. I was not trying to be rude I was trying to understand your information. Obviously you put forth alot of time, effort and money to provide the info I was simply trying to figure out your ultimate purpose in your tests, and after all that I am left to conclude that my initial obsevation was correct. Ricky | |||
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I'm not exactly a newbee having reloaded for 49 yrs. I too ask dumb questions. Your's really wasn't in that catagory. Some times a person gets his shorts bunched up a little and a few written words makes him feel unappriciated and not understood. We've all been there too. Kind of shine it on. As far as I'm concerned the newbees are the future of this activity and are just as important as the Gurus. If there weren't any young bloods who would there be for the old timers to generously hand down the message to.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Ricky, There are a lot of variables. A .2 charge variation might be noticable in a benchrest rifle but not in a .375 H&H. Or the variation may be noticeable with a 36X BR scope but not with a hunting scope. Note that powder is about 1/8 the weight of similar volume of brass. Cases vary in weight and therefore in volume. That affects the pressure of the load. Assuming that reloading always makes a difference is incorrect. A mediocre barrel and chamber may make you think that all you need is a better load combination when you really need a better barrel. | |||
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With some powders that may make a difference but with others like IMR 4831 it's not likely. | |||
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Ricky_arthur,
I'm sure a generous contribution to fuel his other addictions would be appreciated! | |||
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scr83jp, I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about. Are you saying that a full grain of powder change is insignificant in IMR 4831? I don't buy it. Ireload2, Lets keep it on topic, He was talking about a fast twist 22-250, not a 375 H&H, and I don't care what powder you use, in a 22-250 that is significant. It is always assumed in load data that you are starting with a firearm capaple of accuracy, (sometimes load development proves this not to be thae case)and for the sake of this discussion a poor quality barrel is not relevant, what is being discussed is load development in general terms. I can't believe I have to restate to be clear but let me go again. I am simply saying that using a 2 grain increment in load development, is a rough starting point at best, and inconclusive and useless if not followed up by more thourough testing. Yes I fully grant that it is possible to STUMBLE onto the best load this way, but as a load development method, it's like buying lottery tickets as a retirement plan. Anyone who disagrees with that statement ought to have his reloading PROFESSIONAL status revoked, and be relegated to the rank of Newbie, right along with me. Look, I understand how I would feel if I had done 600$ worth of testing and I thought someone spoke negatively about my results. I was not trying to do that with my first post. But I really think it is HELPFULL to point out that thorough testing of one powder/bullet combo is more usefull than a dartboard approach to broad scope testing. Again, that is only if accuracy was the point of the testing. If the point was something else, seafire failed to clarify when I asked my question. But hey I'm just a newbie what do I know.  Ricky | |||
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>>>Well if .2 gr has an effect on accuracy HOW DOES LOAD DEVELOPMENT IN 2 GRAIN INCREMENTS HELP?<<< Who said .2 grains is significant? You did. | |||
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UMMM yeah I did??? that was the point! do you understand better if I write it thus? Well if two TENTHS OF A GRAIN, makes a difference in accuracy, how does load development that makes 2 FULL GRAIN JUMPS, mean anything? it means the same but you did not read carefully or something. Ricky | |||
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Well after reading the later additions since the last time I looked at this thread.. I gather I should answer a few questions... Rick seems to feel the target of this thread's complaint here... Well let me assure Rick that NO ONE in particular was a target of this thread, but for those that share info, it can quickly come a problem, that a pattern exists, of someone who is complaining what part of the data, that they think we left out... to fit their individual needs... usually this is from newbies... and in my time on this forum... alot of those guys come and go...and yeah, they take info, complain about what they felt was not done, and new ever say thanks for the knowledge that me and fellow forum members shared with them... on the other end, I quote the brilliant statement from my friend Roger Bartsche up above.. the newbies are the future of this sport that we "older timers" want to pass on, instead of seeing it die... It is right as has been said above... each person's rifle is different... however, when one tests a batch of 7 different bullets with 15 different powders, even in 2 grain increments, that gives one an idea of the powder/bullet combos ACCURACY POTENTIAL... if 28, 30, 32 grains of powder throw the bullets all over the place, yet their patterns remain the same for grouping.. it goes to reason for most experienced people, that the time to test in 2/10 of a grain increments is not going to be worth the effort when another batch of powders are showing accuracy potential across the board... That is the information that I am sharing....the rest is up to the individual shooter, but I have shared a wide range of possibilities and shown where to start looking... The idea is to eliminate things such as my Model 70 in 22.250, with a PacNor barrel on it.. I picked a 52 grain Speer HP bullet to start testing the new barrel out with.. as that was in the grain range I wanted to use.. 50 to 55 grains since it had a one in 12 twist... So I started out with IMR 4198....just arbitrary pick... so trying groups from 22 grains ( 223 load data, to the max, listed by IMR of 29 grains).. I put together 10 rounds of each, 22 grains, 23 grains, etc.. up to 29.... well groups were lousy except 25 grains of IMR 4198, in that rifle.. those were one holers at 100 yds... So I tried to see what 24.9 and 25.1, etc gave me.. one tenth a grain either way the groups opened right up.. with the 25 grains, they were one hole.. at 5/10s of a grain either way, the groups were unacceptable... I tried the same 25 grain load, with the same bullet, in my other 22.250s.. threw them all over the place... tried 50 grain and 55 grain bullets from various manufacturers and 25 grains of IMR 4198,. threw them all over the place...the 50 grain Speer TNT, and the Speer 55 grain SP were acceptable... even the sierra and hornady match bullets, same load, threw them all over the place.. even in the other 22.250s... But that barrel loves 25 grains of IMR 4198 and the Speer 52 grain HP... so that is what it primarily shoots for sage rat shooting with an MV of 3490 out of a 28 inch barrel... I recently played with 30 grains of H 322 and 30 grains of RL 7, with the 50 to 55 grains bullets, and it seems to like those combos across the board.. but not still as accurate as the IMR 4198 load with the 52 grain Speer HPs.. Go figure.... My Ruger VT loves a combo of 32.5 grains of H 4895.. a powder I usually hate, and 55 grain bullets, especially the 55 grain FMJ bulk bullets.. my other 22.250s throw them all over the place.. but this Ruger loves this load! go to 32.6 grains or 32.4 grains and the groups open right up... Point being here, it shows that overall, these two rifles, show finicky preference for two powders, in a small window.. In my book, I wouldn't mess with trying to fine tune the rifles with these powders.. both of these combo were just stumbled upon, and so they worked, so why change until they don't work... but for myself, I would rather know a powder works or is going to work well in a wide variety of load variations... I think also the 223 is so popular because it is hard to find a powder that doesn't work well in that case... the 22.250 has shown itself to be more finicky.. and adding match bullets in heavy weights to the formula, just increases it's pickiness... so it took a lot of work to discover a frame work, or outline.. so that one could go and start fine tuning it... these match bullets double the range on a 223.. so I figure that it would better the range of a 22.250.. or just make it plain fun to shoot at those far distant targets! so Rick, if you felt singled out, my apologies...it was not intentional for anyone personally... if someone can use the info great.... I just hoped I could save another shooter a lot of time and expense, since I have already done it.. and also, answer if someone thinks it is worth the time to build a 22.250 with a fast twist....or not.... this one gets the thumbs up from seafire.. cheers seafire | |||
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The point of this was very well taken. I too have spent a fortune over the years. I can take just one caliber--the .44 magnum--because I shot IHMSA and hunt with it. I have owned 8 or more of them and have worked on them non stop since 1956. Hundreds of different boolits and bullets have been tested along with every powder, boolit lube and primer that can be used. My SBH has just exceeded 57,650 rounds. That is just ONE gun. I can't count the shots fired from S&W's, Dan Wessons, Rugers, ETC. My standard for accuracy is 1" or less at 50 yd's and have approached 1" at 100. I have hit pop cans at 200 yd's and steel at 500 meters with them. Then I post an answer to someones question and get jumped on by 50 guys saying I am wrong and full of it. When I ask what they think accuracy is, I get no answer. I guess if the gun goes bang and dirt flies at 25 yd's, it is good. I know where you are coming from! If I would have charged money for answers I would get more respect for all of the time, work and money I have spent. And then there are all of the rifles, but that is another story. | |||
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.2 tenths of a grain is rarely significant in something larger than a .22 Hornet. | |||
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Seafire, If you care to check, I think I've been around this website about a month short of your tenure. I just don't post every day. I agree that there have been people who ask a question and you look next to their name and their register date is the same day as their post, also that some of them have been less then appreciative of the info they have available to them. But, those have been the extreeme minority. Most people have shown both politeness and gratitude when given help. I read carefuly your recent explanation. Your example of 25 gr of IMR 4198 in your 22-250 is simply a great example of the reason for my question/confusion in the first place. For the simple reason that if you had arbitrarily used 24 and 26 gr to test, you would have INCORRECTLY deduced that IMR 4198 would not shoot in your gun, and your success was based not on a succesfull load development method , but on pure chance. This may seem unkind but I'll stop beating around the bush. What I was doing was hoping that you and anyone else inclined to use this method of gathering data would see the over-riding flaw in the method, I just DIDN"T want to come out and say "HEY, you wasted 600 bucks on a flawed test." Far be it from me to call someones post DUMB or mock their percieved inexperience.  Ricky | |||
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