quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

UMMM yeah I did??? that was the point!

.2 tenths of a grain is rarely significant in something larger than a .22 Hornet.

I don't think you'll find much of a following behind that idea. Re-read seafire's last post where he says that 24.9 and 25.1 gr wouldn't group but 25.0 was shooting one holers. Obviously some of you are priviledged to have benchrest quality equipment that throws any powder bullet combo into tiny holes, but I have yet to own a firearm, that didn't notice .2 tenths of a grain.

Gosh almightly, I wish I was wrong, I wish i could just dump a random amount of any powder, w/in pressure spec's and just make sure they are ball park close, into a case and have it punch tiny holes.

Ricky

quote:

Originally posted by ricky_arthur:
Seafire, Far be it from me to call someones post DUMB or mock their percieved inexperience. Ricky

But you sure did. roger

quote:

Originally posted by ricky_arthur:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

UMMM yeah I did??? that was the point!

.2 tenths of a grain is rarely significant in something larger than a .22 Hornet.

I don't think you'll find much of a following ind that idea. Re-read seafire's last post where he says that 24.9 and 25.1 gr wouldn't group but 25.0 was shooting one holers. Obviously some of you are priviledged to have benchrest quality equipment that throws any powder bullet combo into tiny holes, but I have yet to own a firearm, that didn't notice .2 tenths of a grain.

Gosh almightly, I wish I was wrong, I wish i could just dump a random amount of any powder, w/in pressure spec's and just make sure they are ball park close, into a case and have it punch tiny holes.

Ricky

Like you said you are a newbie.

quote:

Originally posted by ricky_arthur:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

UMMM yeah I did??? that was the point!

.2 tenths of a grain is rarely significant in something larger than a .22 Hornet.

I don't think you'll find much of a following behind that idea. Re-read seafire's last post where he says that 24.9 and 25.1 gr wouldn't group but 25.0 was shooting one holers. Obviously some of you are priviledged to have benchrest quality equipment that throws any powder bullet combo into tiny holes, but I have yet to own a firearm, that didn't notice .2 tenths of a grain.

Gosh almightly, I wish I was wrong, I wish i could just dump a random amount of any powder, w/in pressure spec's and just make sure they are ball park close, into a case and have it punch tiny holes.

Ricky

How many rifles have YOU loaded for where you have seen this magical difference made by a .2 of grain? None I bet and I bet you never see it either. If you do just repeat the loads .2 over and .2 under for about 10 groups on both sides.
Eventually you will figure out it rarely makes any difference.

The Title newbie was APPLIED to me I was merely repeating it in jest. I figured other peoples common sense would dictate who's line of reasoning was sound.

As far as how many Rifles Have I seen .2 grains make a difference, ALL OF THEM. No I don't own 500 guns but enough that I know what I'm talking about when working up an ACCURATE load. Maybe all you are trying to do is hit the paper on the other end of the range, I don't know, but Most people are striving to shave fractions of an inch off their groups, and I always see a difference.

I don't load for any of the super magnums however and I'm sure thier vastly greater case capacity makes the difference less noticable. However the whole discussion was about a .22 caliber rifle so anything beyond that is irrelevant for this discusion.

Ricky

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by ricky_arthur:
Seafire, Far be it from me to call someones post DUMB or mock their percieved inexperience. Ricky

But you sure did. roger

not really, but I WAS forced to be more Blunt. I normally take a more diplomatic route, but no matter how well crafted the wording it is misunderstood. wadda ya do?

Roger, seriously now, am I right? or am I wrong? Do you really think a 2 grain increment is sufficient for load development? Is that how you work up your loads? 2, 4 ,6 8. OOPs I guess that good enough? I know I'm right, I'm just suprised noone has yet had the guts to say so.
15 people were willing to jump in and say that eveyone on here besides them was an ingnorant ingrate, but no-ne was willing to state the obvious.
Ricky

quote:

As far as how many Rifles Have I seen .2 grains make a difference, ALL OF THEM.

I guess you are a newbie.
There is nothing magic about .22 calibers rifles that make them unique or makes the other calibers irrelvant.

>>>As far as how many Rifles Have I seen .2 grains make a difference, ALL OF THEM<<<

You know this cannot be true. Few rifles are that fussy or accurate.
By the way I did not ask how many you had SEEN it make a difference. I asked how many you had LOADED FOR where you saw it actually made a difference.

I read the .2 grain difference with a chuckle. Do you mean to say that the load will shoot the same day after day, -20 degrees to 110 degrees with no change? Who's leg are you pulling? Anything that needs that small of a change to be accurate is ridiculous.

Well Rick...

Actually, even tho, my registration date is Jan 2005, this site has changed servers several times, and I have re registered... I have been around here since about 2003... but that is no matter....

I accept that you are an experienced man...

I don't take offense to your points either...

HOwever, you are missing the point that I am making...

YOu are indicating that I am showing what loads are ACCURATE.. and doing it in a wide 2 grain increment! I am not...

What I am showing, IS WHAT POWDERS HAVE ACCURACY POTENTIAL WITH EACH BULLET WEIGHT TESTED....

If they are accurate enough with 2 grain increments in load testing, their is a great basis to fine tune the load, with whatever powder and bullet weight you want to use at the velocity range you may decide fits your needs...

I think you are trying to read more finite detail into the testing than I am proposing...

But I am not going to try and argue the point with you.. and I am saying that with all due respect...

you and I have 2 total different perspectives on what I was doing and what I was passing on...

While I am a newbie to the AR forums, I am not a newbie to reloading. I still look at the post if some one is asking about the most accurate powder or bullet or pet loads. What I am looking at is whether powder "A" keeps showing the best potential for being accurate or if hardly anyone can can get consistant groups with powder "B". The same goes for bullets. I don't have 20 different brands of powder on my bench.
However, I do research on this site and others, on the calibers that I have. That research comes from those who have the time to shoot 3000 + loads for a given caliber. If a given combination keeps showing consistant results then I will experiment with it. I have come up with several pet loads this way. I have also left the range scratching my head.
I appreciate all the time that gurus have put in developing loads. I have also learned that sometimes this info should be taken with a grain of salt.
What kind of results are you expecting? (Rhetorical question). I am satisified with groups under 3/4 of an inch. My brother isn't happy until 5 bullet holes touch each other. Nothing wrong with that, I am just different than he is.
There are so many varables when it comes to load development that I'm surprised if someone can get all the varables included in 3000+ shots. They have my respect for their time and patience.

quote:

Originally posted by ricky_arthur:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by ricky_arthur:
Seafire, Far be it from me to call someones post DUMB or mock their percieved inexperience. Ricky

But you sure did. roger

I normally take a more diplomatic route is that a diplomatic dance step

Roger, seriously now, am I right? or am I wrong? Do you really think a 2 grain increment is sufficient for load development? Since you asked.Not if you are trying to find the accurate sweet spot. But are you sure that was the intended message? On the other hand I,ve witnessed competition bench rest shooters work their powder measures just as fast as they could slaming hard only some times to get ready for the next round. One such guy that I know wone every event that day . I truely doubt his loads stayed within.2gr. of each other. My shooting buddy works up loads a 1/2 gr. at a time and shows remarkable repeatability differences. A week later the results have changed. This being the case would .2gr. differentials yielded a better result?
Ricky

Some of my shooting buddies are small group shooters. I am not. The frustration level is just too great for this old man and the cost of the equipment and time needed to really get the best results is beyond what I want to invest.

One of the problems with this type of forum is that folks are performing in front of an audiance and are playing to that audiance. Emotions at times run a little high and the benefit of constructive exchange is lost. No body I know likes to be put down in public, and it's hard for some one in open forum to say "Oh my, you are right and I am wrong." one other thing that prevails is; " you slighted me and I'll show you. you SOB." and the battle starts.

Belive it, you'll get a lot more out of this forum if you limit the emotional level. Well this is about as windy as it gets. roger

quote:

Originally posted by stoots:
... I have also learned that sometimes this info should be taken with a grain of salt...

Hey Stoots, Would that be Regular, Iodized, Sea or Epsom?

Lenoir? I used to know a fine young "lady" from Lenoir by the name of Susan Broyhill who went to ECU back around 1970-71.
---

quote:

Originally posted by Roger:
Emotions at times run a little high and ...the battle starts.

I've heard of Boards like that. But, I don't hang around over at 24hour, so I never see any of that. Must be awful!

quote:

As far as how many Rifles Have I seen .2 grains make a difference, ALL OF THEM.

For the most part, I agree with you Rick. I have found that even my M1 Garand will noticably lose grouping accuracy with a change of .2 grs of powder. My 25-06 has been shooting the same load for over 10 years because it works... deviate .1-.2 gr in the powder wight, and the group opens up. Even the .35 Whelen load will loose it's grouping if I change the load by .2 gr.

My guess is that Ireload never bothered much with using weighed loads, and prefers to measure by volume, which is fine by me. But to bust Ricks balls about reporting what he has experienced is not very wise.

Will temp affect weighed loads?... of course it will. That is why I work up my loads during temps in which I will using them. I won't be shooting groundhogs in the winter, and I won't be shooting deer in the summer... but that in no way has changed from year to year the load that is gouping the best in it's intended temp range.

Rock Salt!!
This place is covered up in Broyhill's. I know a Susan Broyhill, but the ages don't match, she is early 30's

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by stoots:
... I have also learned that sometimes this info should be taken with a grain of salt...

Hey Stoots, Would that be Regular, Iodized, Sea or Epsom?

Lenoir? I used to know a fine young "lady" from Lenoir by the name of Susan Broyhill who went to ECU back around 1970-71.
---

quote:

Originally posted by Roger:
Emotions at times run a little high and ...the battle starts.

I've heard of Boards like that. But, I don't hang around over at 24hour, so I never see any of that. Must be awful!

>>>My guess is that Ireload never bothered much with using weighed loads<<<

Nearly 100% weighed. I use 2 AMT Autoscales for both speed and accuracy. That is why I know .2 of a grain makes no difference in most rounds. The other variables are much larger. Heck you scales are probably not better than ± .1 for accuracy. Divide .2 by say 50 grains and you get what percent? .4% Four tenths of a percent. Get a BR scope sit down and try it.
You really think you can tell the .2 difference in a Garand with iron sights and old eyes?
You have to be kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
>>>My guess is that Ireload never bothered much with using weighed loads<<<

Nearly 100% weighed. I use 2 AMT Autoscales for both speed and accuracy. That is why I know .2 of a grain makes no difference in most rounds. The other variables are much larger. Heck you scales are probably not better than ± .1 for accuracy. Divide .2 by say 50 grains and you get what percent? .4% Four tenths of a percent. Get a BR scope sit down and try it.
You really think you can tell the .2 difference in a Garand with iron sights and old eyes?
You have to be kidding.

No, I am not kidding. And believe me, if I didn't see CONSISTANT accuracy with the loads I have developed in the rifles I shoot, I wouldn't bother wasting the time.

Perhaps I should go through the bother of posing pictures of groups shot during load developement to prove my point. But, right now, time is of the essence, so it may take me a couple of weeks to provide them.

Or, perhaps I just shouldn't worry about it, because I am reaping the benefits, and really don't need to prove a thing to anyone.

For right now, I will be satisfied with letting Rick know that he isn't the lone reloader on this site who has experienced pronounced differences in accuracy with a .2 grs change of powder weight.

I guess my biggest concern is; how could you NOT notice a difference?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mike_elmer:

Bush will preside over his own demise.

Man I hope you're right.We don't need gold star mothers. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mike_elmer:

Bush will preside over his own demise.

Man I hope you're right.We don't need gold star mothers. roger

You've got that right, my friend.

Ok, it was time to step away from work and post this target with the grains of load and associated group. These figures were written the day that I shot them at the range.

Clockwise from upper left...47.9 - 47.8 - 47.7 - 47.5

Ironically, this occurs so often with load developement that I no longer keep all the targets. Still, I knew I had one of them laying around.

So Mike..

Are you making that conclusion by ONE target with the 47.5 grain load, or using several of them to find a pattern???

I can have 4 groups of 5 shots each that look like the 4 you posted, with the same load! It happens to me all the time...

that is why I do more than just one group of each load and then compare them all!

so I have to side with thatg 2/10s a grain does not always make that big a difference...

but depending on the powder, the bullet weight, the barrel, the trigger, the shooter, the rifle.. all of those variables can give different results for different shooters...

two guys can shoot the same rifle and same load and have totally different groups... then give the same two guys a different load and same rifle and the reverse will happen....

accuracy arguments are all really academic as their are too many variables....

heck most of us have been around long enough to know that a load might be a tack driver while we test it at home, during mild weather, and then get out to prairie dog country, and it is 90 degrees or more and the tack driver load from home is throwing the shots all over the place..... and bad loads in mild weather might turn out to be tack drivers in hot weather....


nothing is definitive in reloading and accuracy... some might be more consistent than others across the board, and that was my aim when I was looking at what powders and loads had POTENTIAL for the fast twist 22.250 with heavy weight match bullets...

Well I am new to this whole deal, and I for one appreciate all the info you veterans provide. I know I have asked some dumb ass questions in the past and I probably will in the future, so Thanks for the info and for your patience. But one thing is for sure I will never forgive you bastards for getting me hooked on this whole thing, I now have to beat the wife home so I can get to the stuff UPS drops off before she sees it, I mow the lawn in the dark so I can shoot during the day. If somebody here buys some gadget and their groups shrink by .0001 I am buying it. Also I am probably going to get fired if they monitor my time spent here at work, this is my first stop in the morning. You guys are no better than dope pushers, but keep it up and Thanks

quote:

Are you making that conclusion by ONE target with the 47.5 grain load, or using several of them to find a pattern???

Seafire,

The simple answer is "No! I do not shoot just one target and post it as gospel."

The target I posted was one part of my load developement process. I do load developement changing one variable at a time. Repeatability is the highest priority.

There have been too many times when the Sweet Spot has been passed over because I was testing .5 gr. intervals. When I find the .5 interval range that gives me the smallest group, I then start the process over in .2 gr intervals witin that range. When I find load that looks like the one, I load 5 shells with that load to confirm it. After I find the best powder charge, I then adjust seating depth to give it that last tweek. It works for me.

Perhaps I should post, in detail, my entire load developement process so you may see how I work a load up. Or, maybe I should just write a book, and get paid for it!!!

With most rifles, I can find the most accurate load within 50-100 shots. Less, if I get really lucky. And the accuracy is repeatable. If repeatability is not there, it is not THE load.

quote:

Originally posted by chain:
Well I am new to this whole deal, and I for one appreciate all the info you veterans provide. I know I have asked some dumb ass questions in the past and I probably will in the future, so Thanks for the info and for your patience. But one thing is for sure I will never forgive you bastards for getting me hooked on this whole thing, I now have to beat the wife home so I can get to the stuff UPS drops off before she sees it, I mow the lawn in the dark so I can shoot during the day. If somebody here buys some gadget and their groups shrink by .0001 I am buying it. Also I am probably going to get fired if they monitor my time spent here at work, this is my first stop in the morning. You guys are no better than dope pushers, but keep it up and Thanks

Welcome aboard, mate!!

Just remember, While obsession is an essential part of reloading, reloading is only as obsessive as you make it.

quote:

Perhaps I should post, in detail, my entire load developement process so you may see how I work a load up. Or, maybe I should just write a book, and get paid for it!!!

With most rifles, I can find the most accurate load within 50-100 shots. Less, if I get really lucky. And the accuracy is repeatable. If repeatability is not there, it is not THE load.

Mike my friend...

I meant no offense.. I was just sharing points of view here... maybe you and I spend too much time on the Political forum.. arguing with some of those jerks too much...

If offense was taken, please accept my sincerist apologies...

you are a good man, and I would never insult you, regardless in the differences of our opinions.. you have always had my respect...

seafire

Seafire

Thank you for the thought.... I appreciate and respect your friendship.

Actually, the comment with respect to writing a book was more to get back to your original spirit of the thread, and meant tongue-in-cheek.

I have also been considering posting my load developement process because it is a simple and efficient method that reduces the number of shots fired, while identifying the optimum load for a particular rifle.

If there was any ire in my post, it was more towards Ireloads dismissal out-of-hand that some reloaders notice a distinct difference in accuracy with .2 grs change in powder charges.

It is I who owes you an appology if any of that bled onto you!!

quote:

Originally posted by mike_elmer:
...I have also been considering posting my load developement process because it is a simple and efficient method that reduces the number of shots fired, while identifying the optimum load for a particular rifle....

Hey Mike, Start a thread and post it. I'm always open to any "good ideas" concerning reloading.

Best of luck to all of you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mike, Start a thread and post it. I'm always open to any "good ideas" concerning reloading.

Hey, HC, is it not enough to follow your friend's suggestions, Newberrie's OCW-method?
Happy N Y!
Jan.

quote:

Originally posted by chain:
Well I am new to this whole deal, and I for one appreciate all the info you veterans provide. I know I have asked some dumb ass questions in the past and I probably will in the future, so Thanks for the info and for your patience. But one thing is for sure I will never forgive you bastards for getting me hooked on this whole thing, I now have to beat the wife home so I can get to the stuff UPS drops off before she sees it, I mow the lawn in the dark so I can shoot during the day. If somebody here buys some gadget and their groups shrink by .0001 I am buying it. Also I am probably going to get fired if they monitor my time spent here at work, this is my first stop in the morning. You guys are no better than dope pushers, but keep it up and Thanks

chain, and the problem is what???

quote:

Originally posted by Jan:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mike, Start a thread and post it. I'm always open to any "good ideas" concerning reloading.

Hey, HC, is it not enough to follow your friend's suggestions, Newberrie's OCW-method?
Happy N Y!
Jan.

Hey Jan, Happy New Year to you too!

quote:

It is I who owes you an appology if any of that bled onto you!!

Mike,

NO worries whatsoever!

cheers and happy holidays..
seafire