The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Is Sierra in denial ????Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Is Sierra in denial ???? | Login/Join |
one of us |
It is a well known fact that Sierra hunting bullets are usually very accurate. I use them in my varmint guns and I am very happy with the accuracy they produce. Based on this and the many failures I have personally witnessed with their regular hunting line, I called them and inquired about the possibility of them making a premium bullet to withstand super magnum velocities. After all everyone else does upgrade at some point. The Sierra tech told me that Sierra considers their bullets premium already and there was no need to upgrade. I then asked him to reccomend a bullet for my 378 WBY MAG and he said the 300 gr Sierra BT. "It is a very tough bullet", he said. "What if i see an elk or a moose at 50 yards and all I have is a shoulder shot? I can push these at 3000 fps +. ", I asked. He began to tap dance and he said I need to "engage" the game further out or go for a rib shot. I could not wait to get off the phone with this guy!  Thank God they are premiums huh? Sorry....Just had to vent! | ||
|
| One of Us |
I agree with you 100%, Doc. I've found Sierra bullets to be exactly as you describe. Accurate, but........... My hunting results with them have been quite erratic. Which is why I don't use Sierra bullets. | |||
|
one of us |
I have asked myself whether Sierra would ever do a bonded or otherwise extra tough bullet. I guess you answered that question for me. Sierra probably feels quite safe supplying all the non-magnum shooters out there. Until we all shoot only the big magnums Sierra will continue as a profitable business. And the tech probably wouldn't tell a random guy on the phone if they did have something fancy in the works. FWIW, I'd give a bonded Sierra a shot. | |||
|
| one of us |
It could be that handloading hunters make up a lot smaller market share than the ammo mfg. they supply for, and the competition shooting market, so the need for them to do the R&D etc. to create a new product like that just isn't there, or atleast isn't justifiable at this time. | |||
|
one of us |
Not trying to get you too flustered but, If you could show me an Elk that could take a 378 Weatherby Mag loaded w/ Sierra Bullets at 50 yards and not be dead on the spot or very close by, I would pay good money to see that one. I don't care if you shot him in the South end while he was facing North, That .378 Wea. would take him down w/ pure lead as a projectile. I don't see why people use "Too Much" Bullet (and gun for that matter) on certain game. We all have our opinions, we all kill game, just some kill alittle faster   .Good Luck! Reloader | |||
|
| One of Us |
Quote: I don't know, but I'd bet that most of Sierra's (and other bullet mfgs) butter comes from military contracts. | |||
|
| one of us |
If the military is, in part, buttering their bread, you can be sure the bullets meet rather exacting standards. I'm of the school of thought that what Sierra does they do well. And the .00001% that call and want a bullet especially for their 317.5 Hottentot-of which they shoot 17 a year-or tries to tell them how to make bullets makes for a good laugh in the break room.  | |||
|
| one of us |
I think Sierra just knows who butters their bread. Varmint hunters and match shooters. Most people don't shoot too many 338 bullets in a year. Varmint hunters may shoot thousands of rounds and target shooters get together and order drop shipments of matchkings, I know I account for around 3000-4000 a year. The economics probably just don't add up for sierra to invest in a new design for lower volume products when they have their markets so sewn up in other areas. | |||
|
| one of us |
POP, I don't really understand you post? I thought a .375" 300 grain Sierra Gameking WAS A VARMIT BULLET, albeit a tad on the heavy side.  Personally, my varmit rig is a M70 Supergrade 300 Win mag that spits out 200 grain Gamekings into itty bitty groups! Now I realize the 300 Winnie is a tad light, but bullet placement is everything, and like I said this rifle is accurate. ASS_CLOWN | |||
|
one of us |
I have been down the same path as several of you. I too, have called Sierra about bonded bullets. I was told that: "...during our ballistics tests with our bullets vs. other bullets, including premium bonded, our bullets performed as well or better." Now I've also talked with at least 3 dozen elk guides in the last couple of years with respect to this same topic and the opinions/experiences are across the board. One montana outfitter told me: "use something soft in your 300RUM, like a 165 Sierra HPBT for game, don't use a partition or premium bullet because shots will be under 200 yards in most cases. We lose a few animals with those premium bullets...they just overpenetrate." Yet a NM guide states: "Whatever you bring, make sure it is the best bullet you can afford. And DO NOT bring those plain boat tail Sierras or Speers. They are terrible on game, especially if you hit a shoulder, even out to a couple hundred yards or more." FWIW, I don't have a problem spending the extra $$ on a partition or other bonded bullet. I don't see Sierra ever making a bonded bullet any time soon. Their apparent philosophy is "don't fix it if it ain't broke.", meaning, their tests conclude that their bullets are fine in all hunting applications, therefore, why change. Doc. | |||
|
one of us |
reloader, I find it interesting that evidently you have yet to experience true bullet performance. In my opinion, good performance brings both penetration AND expansion together to rest under the hide on the opposite side of the animal. Nothing makes me happier than a nicely mushroomed bullet found in this location. I have used bullets that exited, and my experience is that they simply don't kill quickly. I have shot bullets through many an elk's ribcage that refused to expand. This does not make me happy. I am a meat eater and try to avoid shoulders. I do think one should be prepared to use ammunition that ensures a quick kill- its an ethics thing for me. The last Ballistic Tip I used blew up on the ribs of a mulie doe, and she might have escaped had it not been for a bullet that threaded between the ribs and reached the boiler room! We all should use what makes us happy, and what shoots well. | |||
|
| one of us |
I Think you "Penetration Hunters" Should all start using FMJs! I guess some folks just like to track game. Oh well, Whatever floats your boat. Happy Trailing! Reloader | |||
|
| <eldeguello> |
Well. I have had some very good results with Sierra hunting bullets - but only used them at "standard" velocities from rifles like the .308 Win. and the 6.5X55, etc. When it comes to shooting heavy game at short ranges with fast cartridges, I load with Nosler Partitions, or maybe Accubonds since these have come on the market. But I have yet to try the Accubond. I believe the 300-grain PSPBT Sierra is probably the toughest bullet they make, but it is still a non-bonded boattail, and can lose the core easily under the circumstances you proposed.  | ||
|
| one of us |
Interesting thread. I see nothing has changed. Around 1982-83, I forget the years, the NRA had their convention in Phoenix.I had an idea for a jacket modification that potentially might have made a regular style bullet behave more like an expensive premium. As I'd been shooting Sieera's bullets for years, I approached them first to try and sell my idea. When I said what I was there for, that son of a bitch, Dr. Hull interupted me and asked me what my degree was in? I asked him back, what did that have to do with having an idea. His answer, "If you don't have a degree, bon't waste my time." I said to him, "If I recall correctly, Tom Edison didn't have a degree, and look what he did." Anyway, then I went to Speer to offer them my idea. I got the same degree crap from them. "No degree, we don't want to talk to you, fuck off!" Hornady was a little more responsive, but again there was that degree thing. What makes so called "educated" people feel that only those with degrees have any decent ideas or smarts? So, while Sierra stays in the "dark ages" when it comes to a better hunting bullet, the other companies will leave them in the dust. You know? It might not be a bad idea to E-mail this thread to Sierra. maybe they'll get the hint, NOT! Paul B. | |||
|
one of us |
I've hunted quite a bit w/ NPs in diff. carts. They always expand & always penetrate. I've only recovered one. If you have never shot elk size game & up it's hard to imagine how tough some of these animals can be. If you don't reach vitals, from any reasonable angle, you have a tracking job to do. No SMK or NBT for me thank you.  | |||
|
| one of us |
Hot Core wrote: On the other hand, the complacency of that "older management" is not good for the overall health of any company. Just look at the Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, North Fork, Speer, Remington and Winchester product lines of today. Then compare them with what they were making only 5 years ago. You will see healthy, growing companies who are constantly challenging their Design Engineers to - design better bullets and do so with more accuracy. Well said. That is what I am talking about!!!! | |||
|
| one of us |
3584ELK, You certainly got that wrong and you apparently don't know anything about true bullet performance yourself. I have taken well over 100 big game animals and have seen first hand what I believe true bullet performance is and that is (ironically) just what you said: "a great mushroom that makes it through the animal and exits or is just under the hide on the far side". I get that performance from Ballistic tips and SSTs every time I have only shot two animals that a NBT didn't pass-thru and both bullets where on the off side skin (quartering shots I might add). I have been on at least a dozen long, long, long, long blood trails on big game shot w/ bullets like Nosler Partitions and Winchester Failsafes due to there minimal expansion, small entrance and exit holes, very little internal damage, and very little blood (if any) to track w/. I have dropped a 500 pound Russian boar w/ a 150 Grain NBT at 50 yards right through the shields and lodged under the off side skin. Don't tell me NBTs don't penetrate! Boars are a hell of alot tougher than elk or deer. We all have different opinions, thats what makes it fun. We all kill game, some just do it alittle slower. I would like to see a NBT "Blow up" on the surface. Good Luck and God Bless! Reloader | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: I have spent only a handful of years reloading compared to many other folks here (13 years for me now). Now with all due respect to the above quote, let me say this: I have never had any Sierra HUNTING bullet (for medium sized game or larger) shoot as well as a Nosler Ballistic Tip, Nosler partition, Nosler Accubond. And none of those have ever shot as well and as consistant as the new Barnes Triple Shock in more than 14 rifles that I have owned or currently own. Therefore, my response is this: THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER BULLET MANUFACTURERS THAT HAVE GONE ABOVE AND BEYOND R&D TO MAKE A PREMIUM BULLET AS ACCURATE OR MORE ACCURATE THAN A SIERRA. IMO. Yours in Health, Doc. | |||
|
| one of us |
My personal opinion is that Sierra cares more about the target shooting side of the shooting sports than the hunting side. After all, I would guess that serious target/match shooters shoot more bullets per year than hunters do. I bet they sell a lot more target bullets than hunting bullets. I could be wrong, though. I really don't care what Sierra does with their hunting bullet line. There are plenty of good alternatives in the marketplace. Personally, I like Nosler and Woodleigh. Just my two cents.... -Bob F. | |||
|
| one of us |
Wow, Tough crowd. I think that Sierra knows its market. I don't think that they want to be all things to all people. Do what you do and do it well. Possibly people want Sierra to make a Premium bullet because all of their other bullets are so accurate and shoot so well for almost everyone. I don't shoot any other bullets than Sierra, Nosler and Hornady. Works for me and I am happy with that. Maybe someone should call some of the other Premium bullet Manufacturers and ask them to make a bullet that shoots as accurate as Sierra's. Just some thoughts. Steve | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: Why would you see a decrease in credibility based on someone elses experience? I truly tried the Sierra bullet for years and had some great loads, but the consistency wasn't there for me. Maybe I misunderstood the earlier post I quoted but I didn't see any need for someone to contact OTHER bullet manufacturers to see if they can make bullets as accurate as the Sierra. Now from what I can read, and correct me if I'm wrong, you have done the same thing I did...posted your experiences with the bullets. No big deal, just different results. I also tried to make it clear that I've not loaded as long as many of you all either. I like Remington very much, maybe that is why if you peek into my safe, you'll see a half dozen custom rifles made on 700 actions. Rem. basher, no. And I didn't 'bash' Sierra at all either. Just stated the FACTS based on MY experience at the range. And FWIW, every speer bullet I tried shot better than a Sierra also in 3 of my 270's, and my 30.06. These were all Speer boat tails. So, how on earth does 'credibility' play here? If you don't believe then, just say so, call me a liar if you want. Regardless, it won't change my mind or erase what I've seen. In the future, If you prefer, if you see a post by me, just pass right over it since you feel like I am being dishonest when I post about my shooting experience. And to address why I really care what Sierra does, well, I simply called them up to ask a question whether or not they ever intended to make a bonded bullet because so many other companies were doing so. Now what harm did I do by asking them that simple question?? I was curious. IF they had told me that they intend to do as others have done, then I would have tried their new bonded bullet...that simple. | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: Doc- Not to attack you or call you a liar, but that's a bold statement, and one that I think you will find VERY few other shooters have experienced. NO Sierra bullet shot as well as the Partition or Barnes? I'm quite surprised. I don't often hear of the Partition, or any Barnes bullet, being held up as an accuracy benchmark, but hear it quite often with Sierras. I agree that the Ballistic Tip is quite accurate, but the other two just aren't at the pinnacle of the accuracy ladder. | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: Bullets like Partitions and Failsafes?  Those two bullets are nothing alike--and neither are the wound channels they leave. | |||
|
| one of us |
JonA, They are not alike, the Nosler Partition does alittle more damage than the Failsafe but, not much. Neither do enough damage for me. IMO the Failsafes are alot like shooting FMJs, especially, when used on game less than 250#. Reloader | |||
|
| one of us |
I wonder what the profit margins are on the different types of bullets. I realize that varmit/target shooters shoot a lot but then again the premium bullets are sold at a higher profit margin. It wouldn't surprise me if Nosler made as much or more on the brick of 250 Accubonds I just bought as Sierra made on the 25Lbs of 175gr MK's I bought out of a barrel at their factory. I would also imagine there are 50 shooters who buy a box or two of bullets to reload a year for every one that buys them 5,000 at a time. I realize that you can't always be all things to all people but companies that sell what the majority of consumers want are bound to do better than those who try and sell what they want to make.......DJ | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: Surprised...SO WAS I!! That is why I posted as I did. After I first posted on this string a few hours ago, I went to my basement and looked up all of my old targets I have on file...all the way back to 1991. The very best and consistent group I ever had was with a 180 Sierra ProHunter in an .06 pushed with IMR4350 at minimum charge. It was the only bullet I could get to punch 5 rounds at 1.24" on different days. Those were shot after I had a test group at the range the day before that grouped 3/4". Therefore, I thought it was promising. I've tried the following Sierra bullets and have never had any group better than 1" consistently: 270-130spt 270-150GK 308-180spt, 150spt 308-165bt, hpbt 7mm-140spt, 160hpbt. Bold as it may be, put me in that very small % of NOT impressed with Sierra accuracy. Believe me, when I first started loading, I would have rather saved some $$ and used only Sierra. Would you believe it if I told you I never ever lost a deer using ballistic tips? I've hit them in the shoulder plenty of times and had pass throughs, thus meat in the freezer and trophies on the wall. Keep in mind, my ONLY experience with Barnes is their new Triple Shock, and yes, the accuracy blew Sierra out of the water, hands down. My 30.06 shoots partitions at 1/2" from a rock solid rest time after time (pac-nor barrel). My 270's all like partitions over any Sierra. Why? Couldn't tell ya. However, matchkings are a whole diff. game. If I didn't have a fear of losing an animal, I'd use MatchKings all the time on game. By the way, call Krieger barrels and ask them if they've heard anything good about TSX accuracy. When I called to ask about ordering a barrel, they said I was the third one that week that commented on the accuracy of the new Barnes bullet, and it was only Wed. | |||
|
| one of us |
Good post Steve... | |||
|
| one of us |
When someone posts that other brands of bullets are more accurate than Sierra's in their experiance it's of course true but it shows how each persons experiance is limited in some way. I have been handloading since 1953 which is three or four times as long as one poster above. I still am learning but so far I have found that if one wants to do accuracy testing in a rifle to start with a flat base Sierra bullet. This I am quite sure of. This information relates to hunting and target rifles. I welcome the benchrest experts to speak up. My conversation with Sierra confirmed that they are very concerned with accuracy and value. They commented that any extra feature such as plastic tips, bonded etc. complicates the process. Not that it can't be done but it does make it harder. It's true that companies should not stand still and time is relentless. At the moment Sierra is still the standard of accuracy from what I see every week at the range. | |||
|
| one of us |
Paul B wrote: You know? It might not be a bad idea to E-mail this thread to Sierra. maybe they'll get the hint, NOT! I already did. No reply from Sierra yet. | |||
|
| one of us |
Well Doc, I was kinda paying attention to you until you shot your creditability with your statement about how many bullets that you've found that are more accurate than Sierras. In all those different rifles. Well, I've probably shot a couple of truck loads of NP's and Grand Slams(very conservative guess) thru numerous rifles and my findings is that Sierra prohunter bullets are at least AS accurate and more often than not MORE accurate than either NP's or Grand Slams. Those are the only two "preimum' bullets I use. With respects to Horns, Rems, Winch, and Speer "standard" bullets, there isn't really any comparison. Now understand, I am not saying these other bullets are shotgunning all over the place but the Sierra is more accurate. As you pointed out however, there are a whole lot of bullets out there. And, I might add, a whole lot of snake oil salesmen hawking some of them. So why do you really care what Sierra does? I'll bet you're a Remington basher too. | |||
|
| one of us |
Good point B. I wonder if the accuracy of Sierra bullets had anything to do with making these other bullet manufacturers make more accurate bullets or shoot better?Steve | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: Good point, and yah, what an awsome job. Heck, working for speer in most of their positions would be great according to the technicians there. An engineer/physicist that has worked for one of the other bullet manufacturers or the military in related work would qualify. I'm sure there's very, very few around that can qualify for such a job. I believe that position has been open for a while. | |||
|
| one of us |
That and givin a goo d"liberal (read anti-gun) brainwashing a lot of people get in school these days not many with those skills looking for that type of job. They all are working in other industries I would think. | |||
|
| one of us |
Sierra is in denial. The simple fact is that many shooters prefer to buy bonded core bullets, if Sierra expects to sell to them they should get off their stubborn duffs and make what the people want........DJ | |||
|
| one of us |
olarmy, You bring up a VERY GOOD, NO EXCELLENT, POINT!!! NEVER DRINK AND SHOOT!! ALCOHOL & GUNS DO NOT MIX!!! < !--color--> I still have always thought of the .375 bore as a large varmit rig. ASS_CLOWN | |||
|
| one of us |
Sierra really doesn't go out of their way to promote their big game hunting bullets. Varmint bullets, yes. Target bullets, yes. They seem quite content with the status quo. I think they are probably the benchmark for hunting bullet accuracy. But I have not used one on any sort of big game since 1974 because of a colossal failure with a 120 HPBT in 25-06 at close range. Blew up on the shoulder and the whitetail ran off luckily to be finished by another nearby hunter. So I won't ever shed a tear if they stop making Gamekings. Other brands work better for me. | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: Umm, Mr. Clown, You're funny. You're wrong, but you're funny. | |||
|
| one of us |
Here I can settle this once and for all. Stuff 350 Woodleigh Weldcores into that 378 Weatherby mag of your's and BE HAPPY! It will expand very well and make BIG trauma filled holes in game! Woodleigh the ONLY hunting bullet! Accept NO SUBSTITUTES! Nosler Partition don't expand enough to produce sufficient trauma! Neither to Winchester failsafes, Swift A-frames, etc, etc. THE VERY WORST BULLET OF THEM ALL IS THAT DAMNED BARNES "X" BULLET! ASS_CLOWN | |||
|
| one of us |
Oh no, Doc. I would never call you a liar. Especially in cyberspace. But if you will read the other post, you will find a consensus of experiences that are contary to yours. Perhaps your "testing" was faulty. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |