I am wondering about recommendations for the 7x57 under some special conditions.

Firstly, the recipe for rounds need to be chosen without any load testing in the intended rifle. The rifle would be in Africa and the loading done in NA.

The rounds will be used in a modern CZ rifle, so pressures beyond the traditional anemic levels would be fine. SAAMI may be respectfully ignored, though a practical limit near 60k PSI would still be expected.

Brass is negotiable, but the Prvi looks to be the best priced.

The rifle will be used for general plains game hunting. However, it may be used on a buffalo, so the bullets need to be deep penetrating and reasonably priced.
I am thinking that either the TSX at 160 or 175gn, or the Nosler Partitions, 160 or 175 grain would be the starting place for this discussion.

So are there some good recipes for the 175grain TSX or Nosler that would reach 2550-2600fps?
The question may be repeated for the 160gn TSX and NP that would reach 2700fps.

What are your recommendations or thoughts, given that this loading will be "blind". The bullets will be loaded and then ferried to Africa without prior testing in the rifle.

Many moons ago when hunting Aussie buffalo I loaded 160gr Nosler Partition for my friends 7x57 Brno. He was successful taking several good buffalo when sticking to head and neck shots and would drop animals with a single shot so obviously penetration was perfect for the job.
However on the few body shots he attempted early on the 7x57 was wanting and I don't think any weight of 7mm bullet would perform any differently. Aussie buffalo are very big in body size, supposedly larger on average than cape buffalo, and when dissecting them their hearts are huge. A small 7 mm bullet through the heart is not going to slow them down for quite a while and for quite a distance travelled.
He lost a couple of animals until he stuck to head and neck shots.
Our Aussie guide was not a PH but a professional buffalo hunter in the pet meat business and did not himself shoot away from his 4x4 vehicle because of the danger and did not venture into the bush after lost animals. We did to his berating but I had my 404 Jeffery as the stopper.

A good bull taken with a 7x57 and 160gr Nosler Partitions - can be done with the 7mm but!!!

I would get a copy of Ken Waters pet loads and see what is there.

I think there is a risk if you plan to use max loads. Question is, Do you feel lucky?
Probably will be ok, Might not in that rifle. I'd probably go at least ten percent under, and the Buffalo use thing I won't comment on.

send a note to John Barsness, as a few years back he sent me a good load for the 7x57. I think it was for the 160gr bullet. I'm sure he has loads for the heavier bullets to.

Ackley's Handbook for Reloaders has loads listed using 175s and 160s that will (according to him) get you where you want to be.

Any way to find the throat length in the new rifle? They vary a lot in 7mms and it will make a difference. I you show up with 175s and it is throated shorter, then you won't be happy.

The Barnes data doesn't get you to the velocity you want.
http://barnesbullets.com/files.../7X57mmMauserWeb.pdf
However, if you can borrow a 7x57 locally, you may be able to improve the velocity a bit.
Since Barnes out penetrate just about any other soft, I agree that is the way to go and you surely want max penetration on buff.

H414 is the powder for a 7x57..more velocity and less pressure, close to 4350 but a case holds more powder.

The CZ is strong, so I persnally would use 48 grs of H414 with a 175 gr. Nosler partition or the 160 for that matter..Get you to 2600 FPS, most powders wont.

I shoot 52 grs of H414 with a 160 GS Customs or Barnes bullet, in my "long throated 7x57" with the bullet seated to the cannalure or .284 deep in the case.

If CZ has a long throat either load will be perfect, if its a short throat Id drop back to 46 grs. for the 175 and 48 for the 160..velocity would be substantial at any rate

If your concerned then load book max out of most of the manuals, they underload a good 7x57 all to hell..I am pretty sure you could load my two loads with the bullets set out to fit the magazine of a CZ and be fine..A long throated 7x57 chamber matches to a 30-06 magazine, unless one wants the magazine modified.


Under the circumstances and not being able to test the loads, you are flying by the seat of your pants as their are variables to deal with. Hopefully someone has a cz and can give you their proven loads, CHAMBER AND MAGAZINE SPECS..My loads have worked in a number of 98 Mausers Ive built, several of which I had to seat the bullets deeper..My loads are near max, and based on that I don't belive you could get enough H414 in a 7x57 case with enough room for a heavy bullet that fit the magazine to cause you any problem...

A 7x57 has enough SD by bullet length that a 175 gr. solid will penetrate a buffalo lengthwise in a 7x57 at 2000 to 2200 FPS, Its made many an elephant take a knee..It will penetrate an elephant to the off side skin or e on shoulder shots and even exit on off the shoulder shots broadside..Penetration has never been as issue with the 7x57..I have shot Eland, Elk and Black Bear lengthwise with the 175 Nosler and a monolithic such as the North Fork cup point will shoot thru about anything that gets in its way, its a dandy buffalo or Bison bullet..Ive also had great luck with Woodleighs and Accubonds. But hey its ability on big mean animmals was verified by Bell and his coharts before I was birthed on this planet...

It will do exactly the same thing today it did in days gone by.

Here is what I would do; buy a CZ rifle like the one you are going to use over there. Or borrow a friend's.
Also buy a 7mm throater and punch out the throat to take the heaviest bullet you want to use. They are only $50 and you can do that by hand.
Load ammo for that.
Take the ammo and the throater with you, and do the same thing to the rifle in Africa. That is the only way you can be sure they are the same, without any way to see it first.
Do I trust two identical factory rifles to be the same? NO.

I've no experience with 7x57 at all but I'd be inclined to use the starting load with the highest-yielding powder and bullet.

Being used in the tropics, it may give pressures and velocity higher than the book says, but would be presumably still within safe margins.

Our ADI powders have a good reputation for coping with hot climates and I see that 49 grains of their AR2217 (similar to if not the same as H1000) is supposed to start a 168-grain bullet at 2340fps.

If you don't mind something like a pointed Accubond 168-grainer or a Berger Hunting Bullet, and seat it to make the cartridge somewhat below nominal OAL, I would think it might work. They are all boat-tails in that weight, it seems, but the Bergers look to have a shorter bearing area.

I would not be using monos like the Barnes LRX, though, assuming they could be long enough to cause trouble if the throat is short.

The reason I mention the 168-grain load is because my 2010 ADI manual drops the starting load for the seven-grain-heavier 175gr bullet to 42 grains of AR2217 and a muzzle velocity of only 2040fps.

This powder is not mentioned in their 160gr loads but none that are can reach that 2340fps base or the 168-grainer's 2485fps max!

Mistakes are possible, of course. I recall some loads in one year's book stepping up a bit but then being restored to the original levels in the last edition I've got.

I appreciate the many suggestions. Some are well-meaning though costs may defeat their usefulness, like buying a test rifle. We could as easily buy another rifle for my friend for more known and stable reloads (e.g 375, 338, 30-06). If someone has access to the Ackley or Waters’ pet loads I would appreciate them. I do not have access to the books, a library, or interlibrary loan.

First, I start with load calculations for 7mm08, because the 7mm-08 has a 3 grain smaller capacity than the 7x57. In other words, whatever modern brass can do with a 7mm-08 in a modern rifle, the 7x57 should easily duplicate and even exceed in a handload.

For the 7-08--
Hodgdon Site:
175 NosPart
IMR 4451 - - 43.8C - 2,598 58,800 PSI
IMR 4350 - - 46.0C - 2,556 48,500 CUP
Hybrid 100V 44.0C - 2,568 48,300 CUP
H414 -- - - - 43.0 - - 2,495 50,100 CUP


160 Sierra BT
IMR 4451 - - 43.7C - 2,635 58,300 PSI
IMR 4350 - - 46.0C - 2,681 49,300 CUP
Hybrid 100V 45.0C - 2,690 48,900 CUP
H414 -- - - - 45.5 - - 2,684 49,600 CUP


Comments and conclusions
Notice 4451, it uses virtually the same powder charge with a 175grain lead core bullet as with a 160grain lead-core bullet. Velocity is different, as expected.
IMR 4350 shows the same pattern, although with a significant velocity increase with the 160 grainer.

Finally, with Hodgdon Hybrid 100V there is a 1 grain increase in powder charge with the lighter 160grain bullet as might be expected. Afterall, the difference between 175grain and 160 grain is only 15 grains (only 9% decrease to the 160gn load), so a 1 grain increase from the 175gn to 160gn load is reasonable when one considers that the 270 Win typically increases only 2 grains from a more massive 20 grain difference (15%+) from a 130 to a 150 grain load.
(I am mildly leery of H414 because it’s a ball powder and may be just a tad more sensitive in Africa, especially for someone “going in blind” and without extra loads for re-calibration and sighting in during different seasons. The numbers above show a bit more fluctuation though it is potentially a good choice with proper vetting.)

Since Rel-17 typically recommends starting with IMR 4350 load levels, we may guesstimate that 46.0 grains Rel-17 will work in the 7mm-08, especially since R-17 is more compact and will more easily fit in spaces that are difficult for IMR4350. In addition, since R-17 is double-base and typically gets more velocity out of the same powder charge, we may anticipate approximately 2600fps for the 7-08 with 46gnR-17 and the 175 Nosler Partition.
(PS: Of course, you get what you pay for. Yes, R-17 is something of a “miracle” powder, but it apparently burns at a higher temperature and might produce a shorter throat and barrel life for those target competitors wanting massive shot-totals in a barrel’s life. On the plus side, hunters may be more than happy to trade shots numbered 1000-2000 for better hunting loads in the first 0-1000 shots.)

From the above we can accept that 44grains of IMR4451 in the 7-08 and the NoslerPartition 175 bullet will produce 2600fps in a 24-inch barrel. IMR 4451 is considered virtually equivalent to the burn rates of IMR4350 and Rel-17.

I am not interested in pushing the load to 2650fps in a modern 7x57 with modern components. Instead, I would like to see the 2600fps of the smaller 7-08 duplicated.
However, since the 7x57 is a 3-grain larger volume, we will need to add a little bit in order to maintain pressure and velocity.

Finally, before proposing my deductions, I notice that none of the loads listed by Hodgdon are particularly “hot.” 49000CUP and 58000PSI are not very close to true “max pressures” of 52000CUP and 62000-to-65000PSI in modern brass.

What say ye?

I’m thinking that 45.5grains IMR4451 ought to work out about perfectly with the 175NP. That is a 1.5 grain increase over the 7-08, which should be very safe in a 7x57 capacity that is 3 grains larger than 7-08.

For the Rel-17 powder, I would assume that 47 grains R-17, even 47.5 grains, should work fine with the 175NP, if it fits, and I suspect that it will. (No, I do not have QuickLoad, suggestions welcome, although R-17 seems to have quite a bit of range and flexibility in QuickLoad.)

Ackley:

160 bullet, 45.5-49.0 IMR 4350, 2525-2750 fps
175 bullet, 45.0-48.0 IMR 4350, 2415-2635 fps

The above #s exceed Hodgdon's current published data.

Use at your own risk.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Ackley:

160 bullet, 45.5-49.0 IMR 4350, 2525-2750 fps
175 bullet, 45.0-48.0 IMR 4350, 2415-2635 fps

The above #s exceed Hodgdon's current published data.

Use at your own risk.

Thank you. Ackley's loads look responsible.
47-47.5 grains of IMR4350 would look promising and is about what I have arrived at through comparison and extrapolation.

I am assuming that the data above are for the 7x57, yes? (They would seem too hot for a 7-08.)

If 7x57, they would need to be beyond Hodgdon's data since most 7x57 loads are limited to a very mild 45000 CUP. For my friend, he can always buy factory cup and core and just give up much of what the 7x57 could do. Handloading would be for upgrading what his rifle could do.

you're welcome, and yes, the loads are for 7x57.

I would have the owner make an impact slug with a fired case and mail it to me so I could measure things.
once you have that in hand you ain't guessing no more.

My recent experience of loading for my 7x65r with 173gn bullet was to load 10 rds from starting to max load of IMR 4350. Went up in0.3 gn increments. And I did a ladder test at 100 metres. They all went into a 2” Group. So I chose a load just below max load and loaded them up to standard OAL. Then went hunting

My 7x57 is again forgiving. IMR 4350 seems a good powder and been getting good results with 45g under a 139bullet.

If it’s not your rifle, full length resize and seat to standard OAL, with a 90% max load. Or use quickload to give you some data.

Ok it might not shoot bug hole groups at 500m, but you still put them all into a smartphone at 200m and that’s a dead buck.

Reloads for sight unseen guns and not checked in the chamber to make sure they'll fit is asking for problems.

Screw that die down to factory specs and it should fit ok, "SHOULD", don't bet your life on it though. Cover your ass and take some factory new as back up.

I've run into that quite a few times. Whenever someone wants to buy my reloads or have me load for their gun. I insist they bring the gun to me so I can adjust the die so they'll chamber.

Nothing hurts worse than going miles and big expense then find out none of the ammo will chamber.

George

My load approach for something like this is
1: 51k loads are still mild - in a normal round (308) it would pick a powder i have handy and like, and do middle of chart load
2: at spec OAL
3: with my normal hunting primers
4: be VERY careful on OAL to be the same

I might code some cases at longer lengths, might not - and in this case, it would scratch the case heads I II III etc, to do this, rather than marker to wear off in travel

most rifles will shoot "alright" with a spec load ... if they don't, we probably don't keep each other's company long

Since you are loading heavy bullets, and 51K is pretty mild, as long as it isn't a 91 or something, I would be pretty okay with this approach ... it won't turn into a 7x64

this is useful
http://blog.westernpowders.com...7X57_ramshotdata.pdf

quote:

Reloads for sight unseen guns and not checked in the chamber to make sure they'll fit is asking for problems.

Brass would be new.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
this is useful
http://blog.westernpowders.com...7X57_ramshotdata.pdf

Thank you Jeffe.

The BigGame load of 44 grains with 175 grain bullets looks pretty realistic. And they claim that 47 grains of Hunter fits in the 7x57 without compression (99% density).

It would seem that 2600fps is quite doable with the 7x57 capacity as long as someone doesn't limit the round to rifles produced in the 19th century.

There are very few things i wouldn't hunt with a 175gr 7mm at 2500 fps, given decent bullet construction ...

It's a shame I have this exact rifle but only data for the 140 grn Sierra.Great rifles and good luck with the Safari.
I would be taking a couple of boxes of factory Rem and Norma as back up in the circumstances.
(Mine has a long throat) jc

quote:

I have this exact rifle but only data for the 140 grn Sierra.Great rifles and good luck with the Safari.

the rifle is already in Tanzania. A friend who is otherwise limited to buying ammo locally, where the only option is Sellier and Beliot 173gn roundnose at $2.50/round. while the S&B round is much better than nothing, we can do better with components.

Speer has recently put out some new data with 175 grain bullets, and 175 grain bullets are desirable if eland and/or buffalo might be contemplated. Hey, a local is not going to pass on a buffalo with a 7x57!

Here is the new Speer data.
- With the smaller case 7-08:
- With the 175gnSpeer Grand Slam in 7-08, Rel 19 47.0Compressed produces 2628fps !
- With the same, and Rel 16 44.8Compressed, 2576fps !
- With the same, and Rel 17 44.2Compressed, 2566fps !
- All of these would need about 1.5 grains added for the 7x57 to maintain the pressure and velocity in the larger case.
- 2600fps is certainly doable in a 7x57 in a modern firearm like the CZ.

With the 7x57 cartridge:
with the 175gnSpeer Grand Slam in 7x57, Rel 22 51.0 C, for 2625fps !!
with the same, Rel-17 43.7, for 2545fps.
with the same, Rel-16 44.2 C, for 2527 fps.

However, I call attention to the numbers between the 7-08 and 7x57. Speer has put more powder in the smaller 7-08 case than the 7x57. That is because the 7x57 is traditionally underloaded, but in a modern CZ rifle there is no reason to load below 7-08 pressures and velocities. For example 44.8 grains R-16 are put in the 7-08 but only 44.2 in the 7x57.

I think that I would use these data to put 46.0 grains Rel-16 in the 7x57 and I would expect over 2600fps with a 175gn cup-n-core bullet. At that capacity, a grain of powder would produce approximately 55-60 fps, so the 46.0 grain load should land around 2600-2625fps.

Myself, I would lean toward a load of 46.0 Rel-16 IF IT WILL FIT and is not too compressed. If 44.8 Rel-16 will fit in the 7-08, then 46.0 should fit even easier in the 3-grain-larger 7x57.

So - - -
Perhaps 46.0 grain Rel-16 in 7x57 with a 175grain Swift A-Frame for Africa.
Or, at only 1/3 of the bullet cost, 46.0 Rel-16 with the 175grain GrandSlam Speer.

I suspect that an eland won't know the difference between a 175GS and a 175AF. I
But don't have experience with a GrandSlam, 33cents/bullet, but the A-Frame, at over $1/bullet, at least offers 95% weight retention.

What do you think, or what has been experience with these?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Reloads for sight unseen guns and not checked in the chamber to make sure they'll fit is asking for problems.

Brass would be new.

I have no experience with Africa Tanzan, which is why I was suggesting factory backup,just too many variables for me. My 140 load came straight off the Hodgdons chart and is very accurate and gives me just over 2500 fps,which is good for any deer over here.

Using good new brass (is, Norma ) trimmed to minimum and an OAL of 3.000" with the loads you were suggesting you should be good to go with the load of your choice,maybe also using Jefeosso chart (below)

Don't suppose there is any way of you getting hold of a dummy round of fired brass from the rifle in Africa to take the guesswork out.If there is anything I can replicate for you through my CZ just let me know,or maybe someone closer to you.

As was said in another thread we loose access to many of our powders through stupid European rules this year and this powder chart will get well used in the UK.till the dust settles.ATB jc

http://blog.westernpowders.com...7X57_ramshotdata.pdf

I have been rethinking this from another angle.

What bullet would I want to put in the case if my friend used his rifle on a buffalo?

Probably a 175gn TSX. That would probably be the most reliable for penetration. However, it is also a very long bullet and long bullets can be a little finicky to load "blind". One wants to know the exact magazine restrictions, the exact throat/land jump, and which powered may work out the best in the more restrictive case capacity.
A second bullet for a buffalo would be a GSC flat-nose solid. I would happily use such, however, a flat-nose solid starts to give up a lot of its advantages after 150 yards. It would not make for an all-around load.
A third option would be the 175gn A-Frame. It would like retain almost as much weight as the TSX, probably penetrate almost as far, and as a shorter bullet could be loaded up to fit any number of rifles with reasonable expectations for hunting accuracy, feeding, and pressures. But they cost about $1.20 a bullet.

Another approach is to consider what things may be like down range, what would happen at 100, 200, and 300 yard impacts. Of course, a buffalo shot should probably be limited to 100 yards, but eland are similarly big.

At 100 yards
a 175gn TSX (2525 fps muzzle) would hit at about 2346 fps. Penetration is related to momentum divided by frontal-cross-section area. Since the comparison is all with .284" bullets, we can use bullet weight x velocity/1000 for an easy index.
A 175x2.346 (at 2525fps muzzle) is 411.
A 150gn TTSX (at 2750fps muzzle) is 386.
A 145gn LRX (at 2800 fps muzzle) is 382.

at 200 yards
175 x 2.173 is 380
150 x 2.407 is 361
145 x 2.478 is 359.

at 300 yards
175 x 2.009 is 352.
150 x 2.246 is 337.
145 x 2.478 is 337.

Only at 400 yards is there a change between the 145LRX and 150TTSX:
175 x 1.852 is 324.
150 x 2.089 is 313.
145 x 2.178 is 316.

So the 150 TTSX might make the easiest all-around plains game load with good penetration, although the 175TSX would be the best to shoot at a buffalo if it could be reliably loaded "blindly".

The 7X57 is a very popular African Hunting Rifle. You would be able to shoot most game species but not recommended for Big 5. I would say the best for Bushveld hunt is the 175gr and preferably if you can load a bonded bullet it is better for Eland, Swart and Blou Wildebeest, Kudu and Impala. Most kills are made in less than 150yards. For hunting smaller animals at longer than 200yards range the 150gr bullet is is good choice. Smaller game like springbuck and mountain reedbuck does not require bonded bullet.