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When FL resizing, I have always followed the directions in the RCBS die sets and tighten the resizing die until it hits the shellholder, then just a bit more so the press cams over. I was reading in the Barnes manual today about doing somewhat the same thing but then checking the brass in your rifle until you get a slight crush fit. If you don't get that bit of 'crush', you are working your brass too much. Anyone do this? How do you check to see if you are setting your shoulders back to far? (besides having a case head separation!) I have mostly neck sized in the past. Plus, I have had lots of brass in the past, but I was realizing the other day that in some of my calibers I load for, the brass is being reloaded more times than I realized. I guess I started worrying about working the brass too much too late??? Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | ||
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I don't believe that you are bumping the shoulder back at all when PFLR, are you? I PFLR to size about 1/2 way down the neck. I can see where the die has been. I don't think the FL die touches anything else including the shoulder. Is this wrong? | |||
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This is where there is some disagreement. Like Fish I believe that PFLR is sizing all the neck, sizing all the case body and pushing the shoulder back just far enough to relieve the crush fit (usually about .001" or so). After all, it is called Partial FULL LENGTH Resizing. If you are only sizing part of the neck then a more appropriate term for that would be Partial Neck Sizing. I am not the keeper of records here, so if someone else has a different idea, then let's hear it. I have repeatedly tried to tie everyone down to definitions before on these threads with no success. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Got it. I think I'm just partial neck sizing. Woods, it sounds like you are full length resizing. If you are not, what is the difference? The only thing left to size is the case head, right? | |||
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Hey Woods, The way I P-FLR(aka the proper way  ), there is Zero Headspace because of a slight Crush Fit when the Bolt is closed on the Case. All the Neck is Resized, the Case Wall at the Pressure Ring is Resized, the Case Head to Case Shoulder dimension is increased and then reduced to a "proper" slight Crush Fit dimension. The Case Head to Case Shoulder dimension is determined by wiping the Lube off and trying the Case in the Chamber. At some point the Case is too long for the Bolt to close and the Die should be barely screwed "Into" the Press just a bit more. Trial and Error determines the proper Die Setting - no "Thingys" are necessary nor wanted within 100 miles. Anything else is something besides a proper P-FLR.  Perhaps "Thingy-FLR" would be appropriate for your method.  | |||
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The only difference between PFLR and FLR is that with FLR you push the shoulder back far enough that there is no contact at the shoulder. HC is correct but he has a very slight misunderstanding  (not too surprising since he doesn't own any thingies). If you push the shoulder back .001" you will still feel a slight crush fit. If you push it back .0015" then you are right on the verge of losing contact between the case shoulder and the chamber shoulder.So listen carefully HC and I will explain what my thingies have taught me:
Now maybe you can figure out how to use your barnyard tools (duct tape, baling wire, etc.) to tell you what my thingies have revealed to me, hmmmmmmm....   ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Hey Woods, I'm not sure how to phrase this so it is politically correct, so I'll go with - your Thingy "Class" measurements have pulled a clinton on you - AGAIN!  ----- I'll take just one to explain how hosed-up your Thingy "taught" you. When "anything" is measured for an Interference Fit, if the piece measures 0.0000" difference, it is a Perfect Fit not a Severe Crush Fit. Any "shortening" of the CaseHead to CaseShoulder dimension from the 0.000" perfect Interference Fit begins creating Headspace. So, it appears your Thingys are FUll-of-Beans. Has anyone mentioned that to you before?  ----- That said, if it works for you, I'm all for it. | |||
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I am assuming you are reloading for bolt action rifles, I would not "partial-length" resize for anything else. When you "partial-length" resize, you are doing a little of everything only not as much as "full-length" resizing. I like to resize the neck at least one half the bullet diameter for good alignment and bullet grip. You don't need any special tools to "partial-length" resize. Your bolt action rifle that you will be firing the reloads in will tell you all you need to know. Start by screwing in your F-L die all the way until it touches the shell holder of the SAME manufacturer that made your dies. Then back out the die one to one and a half turns. Keep checking the resized cases in your chamber until you are comfortable closing the bolt. I like mine where I don't have to use excessive force closing the bolt and also consider getting some grit/dirt on the cases while hunting. All rifles are different so you might end up with an almost "full-length" resized case. I have two rifles like this. By doing this you extend case life, eliminate over working the cases and having case head seperation. On dangerous game hunts I would think one should "Full-length" resize no matter what, and screw the case life. I would not take any chances with cases not feeding properly. P.S. Always check your reloaded ammo in the rifle's chamber BEFORE going hunting. "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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Great info guys. Thanks for the thread. | |||
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I'm anoother that PFLR all my bolt & single shot rounds. It seems to give me a more accurate round over FLR. I set the die so the round will just chamber. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I setup all my dies to full length resize the case as per manufacturer instructions. I bought 2 sets of stainless steal shims from Sinclair International years ago and I use them to heighten the dies away from the shoulders in any increment I want. I also use them on the seating dies to incrementally move the bullet to the lands or away from the lands depending on how I setup the die. If you use shims, you need to keep records of what you’re doing. I fine it a lot easier than adjusting the die stems or lock rings all the time, particularly the seating dies. | |||
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Okay, so we will define the point at which the case shoulder and the chamber shoulder are just touching as .0000". Then the crush fit is happening because the shoulder is a little longer than that and the bolt is compressing the brass shoulder into the chamber shoulder, and my thingy is telling me: "Interference Fit"!? That's a big word for a country boy!  Thought that's what you'd call getting upset over someone butting into a family quarrel!  Does make more sense that the dimension from the case head to the datum point would be too long and the crush fit is a demonstration of that dimension being compressed by the bolt action. My question would then be, how does the brass grow larger than the chamber? ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Duckear, forgive the 'Thingy' references from our astute posters, but they are both well intentioned! The Hornady Head and Shoulder gage(formerly Stoney Point) is the tool they are referring to as the thingy, and I do find it helpful, but as HotCore and rae59 stated, your rifle and tweaking your dies will tell you all you need to get there. Now Woods and HC, a zero interference fit is when you have no room left between the edge of the toast, and the bacon and tomato inside! That's my kind of measuring! | |||
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Found 4# of Bacon in the refrigerator yesterday - 0.000 Tomatoes. May have to panic and buy some. ----- Hey Woods, if the measurement is a minus(aka " - ") then the rest of the world considers that undersize(loose, non-compressed, having Headspace, etc.). Once again, your Thingy is scrambling your thinking into a special Twilight Zone of measurement. Apparently the Instructions for your Thingy was written by the same fool(your Hero) that wrote the ocw fiasco.  Does to me too, and most of the world. I can think of two ways: 1. If the Case has become Work Hardened through repeated Firings, a robust MAX Load will expand both the Case and Chamber. Then as the Pressure abates the Case and Chamber contract, but the Case trys to remain at a larger External Dimension than the contracted Internal Chamber dimension. Work Hardened Cases can be tough to Extract because they are held in compression. 2. When doing a "proper" P-FLR, once the Neck is almost completely Resized, the Pressure Ring area of the Case Wall begins making contact with the Die. That contact begins "reducing the diameter of the Pressure Ring"(aka Resizing the Case Wall) and that causes the Case(from Case Head to Datum Point on the Shoulder) to lengthen. (Take a long kids baloon and squeeze near one end, the baloon will lengthen. There may be a special Thingy for measuring the baloon growth amongst your Thingy collection.  )As the Case goes farther into the Die, the longer the Case becomes - until - the Case Neck is completely Resized. At some point it may become impossible to close the Bolt on the Case. (This depends on the specific Chamber and Die dimensions.) Then screwing the Die into the press a bit more, forces the Shoulder back slightly(begins Resizing the Length from the Case Head to the Datum Point on the Shoulder) and slightly shortening the Case. Here is where very small movements of the FLR Die is the most critical to obtain a proper P-FLR. The Case should have the Lube wiped off and tried in the Chamber with each Die adjustment. At some point, the Bolt will close with a "snug fit"(slight Interference Fit, approximately 0.0010" to 0.0015" compression, minus Headspace). That forces the Case CenterLine to align the closest possible with the Chamber CenterLine. No other method of Resizing will do that as accurately. Not Neck Sizing, not Lee Collet Sizing, not using 2-X different Dies in some strange reloading mystical ritual, nothing else makes that critical alignment as accurately. But, a person should use whatever method they like the most, regardless of how hosed-up it is. Screwing the FLR Die in just a bit more and you reach 0.0000" Headspace. And then a bit more so that you actually have a small amount of Headspace and you are FLRing. I agree with Rae59, that FLRing a Case is the best thing to do for folks Hunting in Dangerous Game country. It does shorten the Case Life, but that is much better than a jam when you need the firearm for defense. ----- I don't need any stinkin' Thingys nor PCBs. But I could use a few Ripe Tomatoes!!!  | |||
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Hey HC, your "thingy-less" explanation is saying exactly what I was saying, just without verifiable measurements that I can obtain. I explained it as a positive measurement and a negative measurement, pick one. Here's your RED RIPE TOMATOES to get your taste buds going   and a big green one you can put away and bring out to look at next month when I start picking new ones  Don't worry about being "thingy-less", something you old timers get used to.  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Hey Woods, Those are some fine looking Tomatoes, even the outa focus ones. Did you have to shoot through drool or what? | |||
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I love tomatoes and tomatoe salade with onions and goat cheese and olive oil and oregano-some cucumber too! | |||
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Yes, I follow the philosophy you read in the Barnes manual. I use a Redding Body Die to "bump" the shoulder back. I partial neck size until the bolt gets stiff to close then use the Redding Body Die to bump the shoulder back just enough to allow the bolt to close firmly. I also keep an eye on case trim length. One more reason why I like the Winchester wssm's so much. All I ever have to do is partial neck size. | |||
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I use white mica to set my die. Coat the neck with mica and size/turn die in until the mica collects just at the base of the neck but without setting shoulder back. Next I try the sized case in the chamber. If it fit's, I size the rest.Results in near perfect fit for that chamber. | |||
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BTW, Had an interesting experience with minimum sizing (crush fit) once. Had my cartridges in my pocket - it was -10* - as I walked to the stand. The rifle contracted from the cold and shells would not chamber when I tried to load the rifle. They did once the cartridges got cold too. | |||
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When I was in college in 1976, I had tomatoes in pots that came in at night and got put out during the day. I was all just Early Girls then. From 1984 to 1999 I had 5000 sq ft of raised bed, drip irrigated, organic garden, fed by 10 cu yards of compost/yr I cooked from 100 cu yds of grass clippings. For the last 10 years, I have had less than 10 sq feet cultivated, the rest has gone back to nature. Like the gardening burn out, I may burn out on the 60 some cartridges I am now reloading. But for now, I am cutting chambers with .001" headspace, and setting back the shoulders on the brass to .000". [net shoulder set back of .001" per FL sizing] I have not verified this gives better accuracy, but Bart Bobbit does that, and he made many tests competing at the national level. 2008 was a come to Jesus year for me and Lee Collet dies. | |||
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I've read thru this thread and I'll add my $0.02 regarding MY experience with PFL sizing. This is something I've noticed with .300 Win, .338 and .375-338 cases using Lyman, C-H and RCBS dies - the common denominator being belted mag cases. First of all, FL sizing (w/o an X-sizer die) tends to lengthen cases in the order of 3-5 thou. per sizing. This measurement is the OAL of the case, but I assume the "stretch" is linear from the case head (zero stretch) to the end of the neck. Therefore, the shoulder is moving away from the case head (linear interpolation of the stretch) even if you don't bump it back. This is because when a tapered case is squeezed back down it tends to flow forward. Take a case that has been fired in the given chamber. The fired case WILL go back into the chamber before I start sizing. When I PFL size, there comes a point about 1/16" before contacting the shell holder that the case won't chamber. This is because (I surmise) the shoulder has been moved forward due to the brass flow. You necessarily have to bump the shoulder at this point to get the case to chamber. Am I the only one who has observed/experienced this?  | |||
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Hey Muskeg No you are not the only one. It is a common thread througout these discussions that when you start sizing the case body you will push the shoulder forward and it will continue to push the shoulder forward in small increments progressively as you thread the die in. The case will become harder and harder to chamber as you approach the point where the die contacts the shoulder and starts to push it back. One caveat to this is that if it a once fired case and there is still a few thousanths gap between the case shoulder and the chamber shoulder, then the shoulder may not be pushed forward enough to create a crush fit. But sizing the case body in addition to neck sizing on once fired or twice fired cases is a way to reduce the number of firings before you get the crush fit. Instead of 3 or 4 firings you might get a crush fit with 2 or 3 firings by sizing the case body also instead of just neck sizing. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Hey Woods: Is that empty case on the left hand side of the tomato an example of the "crush" fit we are looking for????? ********************** > I'd rather be a CONSERVATIVE NUTJOB than a Liberal with no NUTS & No JOB > | |||
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How in the wide, wild world of shooting sports can you measure the above if you don't have a thingy? A micrometer won't due. | |||
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Because of the vast variables between chamber and die dimentions there really is no hard fast rule for setting headspace. I shoot rem. actions so i bought a tool to quickley remove the shroud,spring and firing pin so that i can get a true feel upon closure of the bolt without the loading up of the firing assembly.This has really worked well since you are looking for a perfect fit with little closing effort and no headspace! | |||
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Go get 'em onefunz! You are correct, no way to measure without some kind of thingy. I think HC is just sponging off our data and but he may have some kind of tire lug nut or old whiskey still part that does the same thing as a thingy. He may measure off the press with that complicated method he describes sometimes, I think he calls it OHD or OCL or something. I do think he owns a caliper but it was probably made in the 1950's and is held together with rubber bands and duct tape. Hey aerostarp, yeah that is a crush fit alright! Probably a case that wouldn't hold a primer anymore and that is what you call a "plier crush fit". I keep threatening to do a chamber cast and that way I could use my thingy to determine if the crush fit relationship to the "interference fit" is a positive or negative thing. Anyone here know how to do a chamber cast? ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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So what is the next step when one full length resizes and the case will not chamber? I have a 7mm Mag that I have tried to reload for. I first shoot factory ammo and it chambers and shoots fine. then I full lenght resize and load. It will not chamber. thinking I had faulty dies I purchased a new set of dies. Same thing. I load for 4 other rifles and have no problems. What do I try next. (sorry for the hijack but want to take advantage of all of the experience on this thread) Thank you. | |||
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You are not actually Full Length Resizing if your case will not chamber. You may have set your die according to the instructions for Full Length Resizing, but because of your unique chamber your fire formed cases are not being sized by your die correctly. By definition, Full Length Resizing will size the case small enough so there is no contact between the case and the chamber. Possibly you may need to adjust your die in further in order to push the shoulder back. What die and how are you adjusting it? My advice is to get a Hornady Headspace Gauge and find out whether you are pushing the shoulder back far enough ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Duckear, as you can see, threads like this take on a life of their own. I always appreciate these kinds of threads myself. You are correct in your sizing method per RCBS instruction in that this will ensure bumping the shoulder back quite a ways so you should never ever have a feeding problem. That said, you are indeed overworking your brass. You can use HC's method or Woods' method as both work just fine. Ultimately, it is my opinion that for a hunting rifle, you should FL size and you should try to bump your shoulder back .001, or none at all, but always make sure it chambers in the rifle. With all due respect to HC, the only way you will know how far you are setting the shoulder back is to use a "thingy." I chose the RCBS precision mics and I have one for every caliber I use. I always measure the fired cases first in the precision mic. I will take the hull with the largest measurement and will usually rechamber it in the rifle (as a fired case). If it feeds just fine, then I will set up my die to that hull for the rest of the batch, and I set it up to either not move the shoulder at all or to bump it only .001 and no more. I will then rechamber that resized hull in the rifle after the neck is trimmed. To date, I've never had a problem with it feeding. Even though I can shoot one load of identical shells in one rifle, I have always noticed that some of them expand in the chamber more than others. So, that is why I always used the hull with the most expansion to set up my die. HC has been doing this a long time and from what I can tell, he is one to streamline his reloading and it certainly seems to work. So, I respect his methods and posts. But, same goes for woods. I could be wrong, but with HCs advice, you will be fine and you will work your brass less. The problem w/o using a thingy is that you just won't know how much less. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I first tried Lee and then RCBS. They are adjusted all the way for full length resize. What I don't understand is this. If the fired case fits, but doesn't fit after resizing, what gives. Do I have a faulty chamber? | |||
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I thought I had broken it down to the smallest increment, but I had not tried chambering between incremental FL resizing. And I had not figured it out, either. Even though I was too dumb to see it or anticipate it, as soon as I read your post I knew you were right: The wide fat chamber firing stretches the case wide and fat, and makes the walls thinner. The skinny die squeezes the case narrow again, but instead of the case wall getting thick again, the case gets longer. The shoulder and neck are pushed pushed up higher, but in the end, the die shoulder pushes the shoulder back down. What I HAVE noticed is that a 223 case, FL sized [to .001" shorter at the shoulder than the chamber] and trimmed to length to 1.750", when fired shrinks to ~ 1.747", and then when FL resized again [to .001" shorter at the shoulder than the chamber] grows to ~ 1.753". | |||
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As per tnekkcc's post. When FL resizing, the body of the case is in contact with the die long before the shoulder. As the case walls are squeezed in the shoulder is not contacting anything so it bulges forward. If the die is set down far enough it eventually will push the shoulder back to the correct position. If the die is not set down far enough, the bulged shoulder remains to interfere when chambering the round. | |||
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Hey Doc, Thank you. Hey Dave, That is an excellent question. My answer really was intended as an "approximation" for the Thingy users. However, a person can get to that "approximation" in at least two ways: 1. My work required the measuring of a lot of things in about any way a person can think of, physical measurements with precise tools, CMMs, Comparitors, gauges, meters, oscillograms from an oscillograph or oscilloscope, sound devices, strain gauges, thermometers, comparitors, altimeters, static meters, rfi, emi, eyeballing, feel, on and on. The first Method is simply an educated "guess" from the feel of the Bolt Closing and is not intended as an abslolute. Not everyone would be able to "guess" as close as someone who has done a lot of measuring. 2. The die is a 7/8-14. 14 turns to move it 1". 1 turn = 0.071428". 1/8th turn = 0.0089285". 1/64th turn = 0.001116". Likewise, this second method is also an "approximation" which came by putting a Witness Mark on both the FLR Die and on the Press and watching how much the turn amounts to. NOTE: For Woods, You can use "Duct Tape" or Masking Tape to make the Witness Marks on. Also 1/64th turn is "approximately" 5.5deg or 0.9375min(about 1min on a watch dial). So if you are familiar with looking at a Compass or an Analog watch, you can also approximate it that way by looking down on-to the top of the FLR Die. ----- However, when doing it the way I do it, I don't need to know "how much" the actual Compression happens to be, I just go by the feel. The original "approximation" of 0.0010" - 0.0015" was intended as a Reference Compression for all the Thingy users. Depending on the Case, Chamber and Dies, it would be close to what I desire, but in no way intended as an exact value. ----- That was a fine question. I hope I was able to explain my thoughts well enough that the answer makes some sense. By the way, Woods uses a totally different Resizing Process which provides excellent accuracy for his rifles. Plus it keeps 3-8 different Die Manufacturers in business. I'll guess that few people on the Board do the Resizing Step exactly alike. But, in the end most folks are happy with their results. My way works well for me, but a person should use whatever makes the most sense and makes the most accurate ammunition for them. | |||
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I can't put it down any further. the press won't work if I put it down any further. | |||
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Then it is possible that you need to take some metal off your shell holder or the bottom of your die. I had to do that with a 22-250 die and it is discussed on a thread here. If you have a chamber that is short shouldered then some dies will not reach the shoulder to push it back. That is the thread where my good buddy HC told me to take a file to the shell holder. I think he is still laughing about that one! ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Before you grind try multiple sizing. No thingy required. Slowly FL size a case with plenty of lube, partially withdraw it from the die(do not pull it over the expander ball) then rotate the case and FL size slowly again, retract, rotate and FL size again. Sometimes this will succeed in pushing the shoulder back another .001 or so and let your bolt close. I have a M70 Win that does that. It is a 6.5X55. It is known that the US standards and the European standards for headspace are slightly different. My dies are RCBS (two sets). They work fine with Swedish rifles. Apparently the M70 is a bit off. | |||
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Yes, but at myself. Back in my youth(the ancient past ) the Shell Holders were not "Hardened" as they are today. Or the ones I had weren't.However, the side of an Emery Wheel, or a Remington Disk on a Side Grinder will knock a few thousandths off fairly quickly. A small bucket of water is also nice to have during this procedure. And of course a 0.001" capable Caliper. | |||
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Are you sure the cases have not grown in length and need to be trimmed to fit back in the chamber? | |||
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