I'm a beginning reloader and I'm loading 300 win mags. I'm using 180gr seirra game kings and both imr 7828 and 4350. My loads that I shot were as follows:

70gr imr-4350 - max is 71.4 according to sierra
76gr imr-7828 - max is 76.8 according to sierra

Both of these loads shoowed flattened primers and on my fourth shot with the 70gr of 4350 the bolt got stuck so I decided to stop shooting these loads. I've shot 75.5gr of 7828 before without any pressure signs. Do you think that the loads could be too hot, or could I have seated the bullets so they are touching the rifling or something else that I did wrong. I just want to know whether seating the bullets a little deeper would make the loads fine, or if I'm going to have to pull the bullets and lower the loads. I'd really appreciate some help with this. Thanks in advance.

Andy

Those aren't necessarily too heavy loads but may be for your gun....

I'd think case length or copper buildup in the barrel...

could be anything but check these things first.

What charge did you start with when working up?...How many times have these cases been reloaded?

Andy - A chronograph is a wise investment to start reloading with.

Sticky bolts and flattened primers are indicators, but velocity with a known powder and bullet combination is your best OTC guide to pressure.

Invest a few hundred in a good chronograph and you'll never regret spending the money.

Andy have you taken a good close look at the bolt lugs engageing surfaces? And do you lube with a high pressure grease? This is one area where the sticking may have come from. The loads are warm by my experience, but the IMR 4350 load is up there! As stated by others,it may be your rifle, but a chronograph would be a very wise investment. Good shooting, and try the IMR 7828 more, it's the best choice for the .300 Winchester.

Andy, A sticky bolt and flattened primers are the number 1 sign of excess pressure. Every gun is different. Your gun may reach peak pressures before anyone elses using the exact same load. Back the load off a couple of grains and see if the stickiness goes away.

Reputable loading manuals are BIG on information dealing with excess pressure, read it and heed the warnings. Remember also, the data in published loading manuals are to be used with caution and only as a guide. And don't trust anyones "pet" load in your gun.

I trimmed the cases, and the barrel was just cleaned and came out spotless after the last time I shot. Is there anything I can like seat the bullets deeper or anything with the rounds I already loaded, or am I going to have to pull them and start over? Also, if I have to pull them, what type of bullet puller do you recommend so that I can salvage the bullets and brass? These were my first loads with the 4350, i know I went a little bit too high to start out with for those, but I've loaded 75.5 gr of 7828 before and there were no pressure signs that I could tell. Also, the groups I shot today were terrible. The first 2 rounds were touching then after that they opened up a lot. With factory winchester 180gr power points I get about 1 inch at 100 yards, these were getting about 3 inches. Thanks for the help so far!

Andy

I forgot to mention, about the chronograph, I would like to get one but, I don't think I mentioned this, I'm only 16 and I can't order stuff online without permission and my dad doesn't seem to think that a chronograph is a necessity, so I can't get one. If anyone would like to try and convince him otherwise I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks again for all of your help.

Andy, show your Dad this post/thread and tell him how much of an educational advantage it will offer you both. I assume he is a shooter as well, if so it might get him reinterested a bit more. Good luck and good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy2590:
I trimmed the cases, and the barrel was just cleaned and came out spotless after the last time I shot. Is there anything I can like seat the bullets deeper or anything with the rounds I already loaded, or am I going to have to pull them and start over? Also, if I have to pull them, what type of bullet puller do you recommend so that I can salvage the bullets and brass? These were my first loads with the 4350, i know I went a little bit too high to start out with for those, but I've loaded 75.5 gr of 7828 before and there were no pressure signs that I could tell. Also, the groups I shot today were terrible. The first 2 rounds were touching then after that they opened up a lot. With factory winchester 180gr power points I get about 1 inch at 100 yards, these were getting about 3 inches. Thanks for the help so far!

Andy

I forgot to mention, about the chronograph, I would like to get one but, I don't think I mentioned this, I'm only 16 and I can't order stuff online without permission and my dad doesn't seem to think that a chronograph is a necessity, so I can't get one. If anyone would like to try and convince him otherwise I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks again for all of your help.

Andy,

If you take a loaded round and then push the bullet deeper into the case, pressures go up. If you take that same cartridge and seat the bullets out, pressures go down. If you take the same cartridge and seat the bullet into the lands, the pressure goes up again.

I use the Kenetic bullet puller (hammer) from RCBS. It works great and doesn't damage bullet or brass.

I agree totally with what's been said about pressures -- especially what malm said about sticky bolt and flattened primers being the primary indicators of excessive pressure, and what others have said about a load that is safe in one rifle may not be in another.

Those are crucial points for us all to remember, and if I were you, I'd back off a few grains. It's just not worth much to squeeze the last 100 fps or so out of a cartridge, when you figure that it will only extend your maximum point blank range perhaps 5% - 7%.

Personally, I consider a chronograph to be an investment in safety, one almost as important as a good scales.

You can sometimes tell if your bullet is contacting the lands by chambering a round, and then extracting it and looking at the bullet. If it chambers with more resistance than a sized case without a bullet, and if you can see marks on the bullet from the lands . . . you know you've got the bullet seated out too far.

I've pulled bullets using a kinetic bullet puller, and I like the Hornady Cam-Lok bullet puller much better than the kinetic ones, especially if I'm going to pull a lot of bullets. It doesn't scar either bullets or brass, and just lifts the bullet out of the case neck and leaves the powder in the case.

I've found mine to be very fast, easy to use and very convenient (plus I don't cringe when I rap rap rap the kinetic hammerpuller because of the damage I'm afraid I might do, but have never heard of being done, to the primer -- but that's just me and my paranoia).

The basic Hornady unit is about $15.95: http://tinyurl.com/rpfeo

If you settle on the Hornady, you'll need a collet for a .308 caliber bullet (#7 .308) for $7.50: http://tinyurl.com/hn3l9


Brian

Andy:
First off, welcome to reloading. Keep at it and you'll have a great life with guns and shooting.

I started in 1958 at 14. Every mistake that could be made I did it. So far, I've gotten by with it all and never blown anything up somehow.
Just had a heavy duty old gun that would stand it I'd expect is why. 1917 Enfield.

After loading all those years I got a sorry assed junk Chrony brand Alpha as my first chronograph. As sorry as that thing was I got re educated. As it proved just about 80% of what I KNEW for fact, was wrong. Especially my velocities were way off from actual.

Tell your Dad to get a much better brand and check his loads out comparing actual readings to what he has always "KNOWN as FACTs". I'll bet you a jug of powder it'll open his eye's!!

Ok, do this. Get no less than three current loading books. I recommend: Lee, Hornady, Lyman, Sierra, Speer, Hodgedon's. Thing you'll find with all printed by powder or bullet companies is they'll be quite limited to loadings for their own brands and not include others much. Therefore, Lee and Lyman's for sure, then chose from the rest. They are all good, it just depends on whether you want to be limited to loading say, Hodgedon's powders, or Speer, Sierra, or Hornady's bullets. Lyman and Lee are reloading tool makers and they don't care what brand of powder or bullets you use, so they'll have more variety of loadings listed.

Read each book, cover to cover at least once. Then compare their loads before you ever load anything. Then cut the charge down to about half way between max and starting, but, average all the listings in all three books. Then you'll have a good starting point.

Resize a few cases, leave them empty. Seat a couple or three bullets in them as far out as they'll stay in the cases and be soundly seated. Then take a black felt tip and paint the bullets solid black. Chamber and extract them. Then inspect the bullet tips for markings from the lands. IF you don't have the bullet seated firmly, they might pull out and stick in the barrel, so have a brass range rod handy to push them out with in case. It's sure handy to have one along when shooting too. Never know when something might stick one in the bore.

These dummies should tell you the depth of the chamber. Keep those three to refer too. Measure the OVL an compare to what the books say max OVL is with those bullets. Compare to the books and what yours are, and how things compare to the markings on the bullets.

That will give you a good idea of the seating depth's you should live with. Keep good written records of all these things in a good thick notebook. Skip several pages for each different loading so you can make further entries. As you'll want to add pages in the future, make this up on a big three ring binder.

I'd also suggest you get some 4895, any brand and use that instead of these powders until you have a lot more experience loading. Then you can get into the hotter burning powders and come nearer being safe without having problems crop up. Also, you can use 4895 in just about every rifle cartridge made, from dinky lil things to the biggest mag's made and be safe.

Study everything you can. Get a Lee Loading book and read that as one of the three. There's a whole bunch of prime education in Lee's book that's not in many of the other books. Plus, he's got a lot of cast bullet tables in there you won't find anywhere else too. Sooner or later you'll get the bug to cast your own.

Never crowd max loads, ever. As for bullet pullers, get a MidwayUSA hammer type to start with. They're safe and won't damage the bullets, plus there's a set of collets to fit anything included and they sell for as low as $8 sometimes, regular price runs about $10-12.

Because I cut a knuckle up once digging in my pocket for shells. I very lightly crimp all my loads, just barely enough to take the sharp edge off the mouth of the case. This is not crimping the bullets actually IF you do it real lightly like this.

Wish you well, and again, welcome to reloading.

George

I would not use IMR 4350 in a .300 Win. Mag. It is a great powder, but a little on the fast size for that large of a case. OTOH, IMR 7828 should be quite good in that round, as is RE22 and Norma MRP (if you can find any!).

However, with a 180-grain bullet, 70 grains of IMR 4350 should not be excessive. My Speer manual lists 73 grains of IMR 4350 with their 180-grain bullet as maximum, but using different brands of bullets can often make a difference in maximum loads.

quote:

These were my first loads with the 4350, i know I went a little bit too high to start out with for those, but I've loaded 75.5 gr of 7828 before and there were no pressure signs that I could tell.

Dumb kid!!! Keep taking shortcuts like this and you'll never see your 17th birthday.

And if Daddy's reading this, maybe you should supervise more closely or pull his reloading privileges until such time as he's proved he can follow established safety procedures.

I'm curious as to the reasoning behind not working up from the starting load. Are bullets or powder too expensive to waste on load development? Were you short on time? Are you a know-it-all in need of instant gratification? Or just the opposite, you flunked out of Handloading 101? WHAT???

No Andy2590, you've got more than pressure problems. You need to stop and call one of Sierra's Bulletsmiths @ 1-800-223-8799. It's a free call. They're the experts. Ask them if you can skip the preliminaries and dump in 70gr of IMR-4350. Ask them how close you were to crippling yourself. Or worse.

Andy you don't ever start at max load as there are too many variables.FYI max loading isn't always the most accurate so you need to BUY a Nosler Reloading Manual and start reading it.I had a friend who overloaded every shell and his experimentation destroyed many guns.

You ought to ease up onefunzr, he probably feels concerned enough without being called names.

I agree with El D, IMR4350 is pretty fast and in my experience has been very quick to show pressure early. My Nosler #5 (never cared much for anything that had the Sierra name on it ) lists 70 gr IMR4350 as the Max load, guess it is in your gun. Did you have shiney spots on the case head where the brass started flowing through the extractor groove?

RL22 is the best all around powder for the 300 win mag in most cases, IMO. Listed as the "most accurate powder tested" in the Nosler manual.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy2590:
...my dad doesn't seem to think that a chronograph is a necessity, ...

Hey Andy, Your Dad is 100% correct about that. Generally speaking the only thing good that comes from buying one is stimulating the economy.

Lots of folks "want to believe" a chronograph can tell you what the Pressure is - they can't. The only thing they can tell you is the Velocity of a "specific" rifle/load combination.
---

Even though "onefunzr2" got himself a bit wound-up, the basic message of his post is right on the nose. Nobody should ever "Randomly Pick" a Load and just start sticking it in their rifle. It breaks all the basic SAFETY Rules of Reloading.

There are a couple of Methods that currently find favor amongst Reloaders for Developing Loads. Fortunately there is only "one" that happens to be the very best of all time - the never improved upon Creighton Audette Method.

And there is one method championed by a rookie reloader who basterdized the Audette Method. It ended up degrading the potential to obtain the very best accuracy possible - the ocw method.

So, get a few Manuals and Develop your Loads from below while watching for all the Pressure Indicators. It actually takes less time and less money than destroying a rifle and hurting yourself with a Randomly Picked Load.

Best of luck to you.

Woods wrote:

"You ought to ease up onefunzr, he probably feels concerned enough without being called names."

Agreed.

Though Andy2590 evidently started with a warmer load of IMR 4350 than I might have, if he was correct in noting that Sierra's max is 1.4 gr greater than he used (I haven't checked), I'm prepared to cut him a little slack. (Also, he said he noted no pressure signs with 0.5 gr less of 7828 than the load which did show pressure signs -- so I might have bumped up my load 0.5 gr too, especially considering it would still be beneath Sierra's max.)

I'm just happy that he came here for advice (where better to learn?).

I'd hate it if he -- or other newbies who may be lurking -- were to be discouraged by a harsh comment from mining the expertise available here.

Brian

I just went through my 300 win mag "One Book /One Caliber" load book from www.loadbooks.com and it had the following manufacturers listing these loads for max loads of IMR4350 for the 180 gr bullet:

Nosler - 70 gr
Sierra - 71.4 gr
Speer - 72 gr
IMR - 71.5 gr
Barnes - 70.5
Swift - 69

Note that Sierra bullets, Speer bullets and IMR powders all had much higher listing than Andy loaded.

Your other loading of IMR7828 has the following listings as max load for the 180 gr bullet:

Nosler - 77 gr
Sierra - 76.8 gr
Speer - 78 gr
IMR - 74 gr
Barnes - 76 gr
Swift - 75.5 gr

I look at all the info before I start loading but I trust the Nosler #5 book above all. In this instance it would have been exactly right. However, I would have started loading the IMR4350 at 69 gr which is 1 gr below max in the Nosler book.

Hey HC, you know neither the Audette or OCW actually help you pick which bullet and powder will shoot best in a particular gun. They just help you decide which powder loading is most consistent after you have found the bullet and powder that works best in your gun.

.

ALF; You asked Hot-Core to think. One can ask for a miracle, but shouldn't rely on one.
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...Hey HC, you know neither the Audette or OCW actually help you pick which bullet and powder will shoot best in a particular gun. They just help you decide which powder loading is most consistent after you have found the bullet and powder that works best in your gun.

Hey Woods, Having given your comment due consideration, you are absolutely "half way" correct. The never improved upon Creighton Audette Method will indeed let you know if, "you have found the bullet and powder that works best in your rifle."

Gentlemen, to your corners please!

We are in danger of hijacking a young man's thread to further our own agendas. I hope we can stick to basics and post suggestions that will try and help our young friend in his endeavors.

Hey Hawkins, I appreciate you getting me to look at alf's last post, because it is very misleading to the Rookies and Beginners. I rarely bother to waste time reading alf's posts anymore.

When you look at alf's post about the chronographs, it is somewhat "technically" correct simply because he copied all of it from various books (which he normally references). However, it is very misleading because the Velocity and Pressure relationship is not ALWAYS Linear. Not even close to Linear as you approach a SAFE MAX Load with the vast majority of Powders. And Velocity will quite often regress at some point while the Pressure continues to rise to UNSAFE levels.

alf is simply misleading the folks that just don't know better. I would suspect he is not doing it intentionally though, it appears to be the same as most of alf's other posts I've wasted my time reading, simply a lack of first-hand experience concerning what he is posting about.

Here is a (made up) Example that Paul B used in
another Thread that shows what can happen.
55.0 gr. 2800 FPS
56.0 gr. 2850 FPS
57.0 gr. 2910 FPS
58.0 gr. 2970 FPS
59.0 gr. 3050 FPS
60.0 gr. 2940 FPS

Anyone that has shot even 5-8 Load combinations across a chronograph will realize the error. Obviously neither alf or hawkins have that amount of first-hand chronograph experience.

The problem I see is that folks like young Andy don't have a chance at realizing alf's total lack of first-hand experience. But, they will eventually if they pay attention to what the Pressure Indicators tell them when Reloading.

The point where velocity/charge drops is what the "Old Timers" called the balance point. Beyond that point is what Ackley called "overbore". How they (and you) could find it without a chronograph escapes me.
Good Luck!

/

If I may throw in my .02 worth

I reloaded for 30 years without a chronograph and had no trouble at all. I just assumed that the velocity I got was what the loading books said it should be.

Then I got a chrony and ...it was good to see what was actually happening. I now consider it a helpful reloading tool and since it's not a lot of cash, it's a good tool to have. I recommend one for anyone into reloading.

To say it can be used as a direct pressure indicator is misleading. It's merely one more piece of information that one needs to consider and in and of itself is nothing more than a piece of data.....VELOCITY!!!

Taken into account with other bits of information it can help present a picture of what might be happening in the chamber.

I used to use a visual check of primers as a primary tool for pressure. Today I believe this is among the most misleading indicators of all. That said I still look at primers but rely more on other bits of data such as the following

Hard extraction
volcano effect on primers
extractor marks on the case
chrony reading
case head expansion
but most of all:
loose primer pockets

To me it's totally irrelevant what the darn chrony says....if the load is producing loose primer pockets it's too much pressure!!!!! (at least for that run of brass!!!)

If there is one major thing to watch it's this!!

However to say this is the only thing to watch is also a poor statement. One must take in as much information as he has available to him and only then can he make an estimate of the safety of his reloads.

All this aside....if one thinks that he don't have to start low and work up he's just asking for trouble and sooner or later will find it.

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Vapodog:
To say that velocity is not physically linked to pressure is to deny that the combustion event ever took place.

Alf
please point out where I (or anyone) ever said that.

Thanks for all your help everyone. I ordered a bullet puller from cabelas yesterday and it should be here soon because I had to get express shipping because I needed some archery stuff for a 3-d shoot this weekend. I will be more careful in the future and start lower. I only bought the 7828 for the 300 mag, but we had some 4350 laying around and I saw a load for it so I thought I'd try it. But anway, thanks for all your help again.

The reason I don't usually mention that I'm 16 is because of people like onefunzr2. I know that you are trying to help (or maybe just trying to be a jerk) but you could have gone at it in a nicer way.

quote:

Are you a know-it-all in need of instant gratification?

And in regards to this, no, I never said anything about knowing it all, otherwise I wouldn't be asking for advice from the people on this forum. But anyway, thanks again everyone for your help.

Andy

Hey Andy, Nice post. Best of luck to you and your Dad.

quote:

The reason I don't usually mention that I'm 16 is because of people like onefunzr2. I know that you are trying to help (or maybe just trying to be a jerk) but you could have gone at it in a nicer way.

It's called tough love, kid.

If reloading sounds like it’s a lot of
trouble, then you’re probably not cut out for it.

Patience and caution are virtuous traits for safe
and successful handloading.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Vapodog:
To say that velocity is not physically linked to pressure is to deny that the combustion event ever took place.

Alf
please point out where I (or anyone) ever said that.

Hey VapoDog, Welllll...., caught AGAIN! If you will think back just a bit to a different thread, someone mentioned that alf fills in right well for denton!

No doubt in my mind at all about (your close and personal buddy ) alf - When he can't baffel them with copying something out of a book(relevant to the issue or irrelevant, matters not), he will just make-up some kind of nonsense and post it.

Same as he has always done back when " I " wasted time trying to discuss Bullets with him.
---

quote:

originally posted by hawkins:
The point where velocity/charge drops is what the "Old Timers" called the balance point. Beyond that point is what Ackley called "overbore". How they (and you) could find it without a chronograph escapes me.

Hey Hawkins, It really is fairly easy for us "old Timers", but of course we use Methods that simply work well no make that excellently.

So, to answer Andy's question.

Andy,
since you are new to reloading, take this as high pressure until you are DEAD certain you know what pressure is.

either back off 3 grains and see what the load does, or switch to the MIDDLE load for rel22.

imho, there is no other good powder for the 300win, except rel22.

Now, seriously do yourself a favor and buy a CHEAP CHEAP shooting chrony... www.shootingchrony.com generally has refurbs for 45 bucks.

When you are at the range, working up loads, you can record 3 to 5 shoots of each powder charge.

NEVER NEVER exceed book loads

as you shoot your increasing charges, (letting the barrel cool between sets) you will see a fairly steady progresion of vel., at least as an average. say 10fps per .5grain, or something like that... could be 50, could be 5, it doesn't matter WHAT it is.
you are looking for a JUMP in vel. That is either the highest you want to go with that powder, or the effecient "Sweet spot" for it. Your gun and primers tell you. DO NOT load past a "jump" ... say you are getting 15fps per 1/2 grain... and then THIS group gives you 50 FPS... STOP..

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Vapodog:

What gives a bullet it's velocity and kinetic energy ?

To say that velocity is not physically linked to pressure is to deny that the combustion event ever took place.

Alf,
if I had 3 60kpsi loads in a 150gr speer bullet, 30-06, (same gun and bullet and case length), what is the velocity?

answer ... undefined.

" pressure" has nothing in the WORLD to do with velocity. PEAK pressure, as most people use it, is not a variable in WORK. WORK is the area under the pressure curve, as long as the bullet is in the barrel.

for example, one can get at 150,000 psi load with bullseye, that will blow up the gun, injure/kill the shooter, and have a MV of basically zero, as it won't be leaving the muzzle.


conversely, 60kpsi with that bullet and bullseye is about 2350fps, while with 760, it's about 3100fps.

Or, no relationship of PRESSURE and velocity. the relationship is pressure over TIME

jeffe

Andy: I hope you read through all the other good advice (and some bs) to get to this. When I was younger ( still older than you) I blew the lugs off a Belgian Mauser98. No I wasn't maimed, but it wasn't because I didn't try. ALL manuals say to back down 10 percent from their max loads and work up. Thats casue there are differences in chambers, barrels, bullet jackets, and different lots of powder. Your groups opening up are a sure sign of high pressure as are the other symptoms you mention. Even though we are all competitive and the macho thing is to say I can get 3100 fps out of this 300 super duper magnum elk killer, its better to get 2900, drive tacks at 300 yards, and stay alive with all appendages. Take it from somebody who knows the hard (but not the hardest!) way. Stay smart and stay alive with all fingers and toes, not to mention both eyes. The advice about a chronograph is good to - it will sure tell you when you get pressure spikes.