What is a good load for a 280 Remington to fireform it to 280AI?

Perry

any middle of book load, or factory ammo

What Jeff said.

I load for three Ack Imp cartridges and in the 280 Ack Imp I usually load (middle of the road loading for the parent cartridge) 140 gr bullets and IMR4350 which in my firearms produce a perfectly formed case.

Steve.......

Yes but that is not all there is to it; first make sure your parent brass headspaces tightly or you will have short AI brass, and it will separate soon. Depends on how your AI chamber was cut. You might have to either, expand the neck and make a new shoulder, or jam bullets into the throat to ensure that the base stays against the bolt face. I have done both ways.

I've always jammed the bullet into the lands to ensure the base is secure, then implemented the use of Trail Boss powder. Mild recoil with low burning temp so as to not heat up the barrel if sitting at the range doing nothing but fire-forming brass.

Good luck

Sorry about that, I should have said that I do seat my bullets in contact with the lands to hold the case in place while fireforming.
I'm right in the middle of this bug that's going around so my brain isn't working too good right now but then again when does it ever?

Steve.....

If you have a chamber that is longer than your brass then I trust creating a false shoulder much more than jamming the bullet into the lands.

With a false shoulder there is no question that the case stays where it is in the chamber when fired, thus assuring that it does not stretch at the critical web area.

But if the bullet is merely jammed into the lands then the force of the firing pin may shove the case forward -- despite the resistance of the bullet -- and allow the web to stretch.

It is possible that neither of these "bad" things happen, but using the false shoulder is always more certain -- and allows you to use a full pressure load which shoots accurately.

For .280 or .280 Imp brass I like to use virgin (or once-fired) .30-06 brass. Just run it into the FL die until you get a crush fit at the shoulder. '06 brass starts out just a tad short, but the process of necking it down and firing leaves it just about the length that you would trim your .280 brass to. And the necks of sized down '06's are just a hair thicker which fits most chambers better.

Having used the bullet jam method at least 500 times, I can say it does work. If it didn't for you, your neck tension was not adequate.
I also use the false shoulder method, mainly on 400 Whelen; that works too.

Thanks gents!

Perry

Just a caution. The original wildcat 280 improved and the current commercial 280 improved have a different headspace dimension.

"For .280 or .280 Imp brass I like to use virgin (or once-fired) .30-06 brass. Just run it into the FL die until you get a crush fit at the shoulder. '06 brass starts out just a tad short"

the 30/06 case is .051" shorter from the shoulder to the case head than the 280 Remington, the 30/06 case is .041" shorter from the end of the neck to the case head than the 280 Remington case. And then there is the forming of the case; when the case forms to the shoulder and chamber the case shortens from the mouth of the case to the case head as much as .035". Point? The 30/06 case is a bad choice.

A better choice would be the Remington straight wall case; the Remington straight wall case is 2.650" long from the mouth of the case to the case head with a 35 Whelan head stamp. The last time I checked the straight wall cases cost $40.00 +/- a few for 20.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by F. Guffey:
the 30/06 case is .051" shorter from the shoulder to the case head than the 280 Remington, the 30/06 case is .041" shorter from the end of the neck to the case head than the 280 Remington case. And then there is the forming of the case; when the case forms to the shoulder and chamber the case shortens from the mouth of the case to the case head as much as .035". Point? The 30/06 case is a bad choice.

A better choice would be the Remington straight wall case; the Remington straight wall case is 2.650" long from the mouth of the case to the case head with a 35 Whelan head stamp. The last time I checked the straight wall cases cost $40.00 +/- a few for 20.

F. Guffey

You make some great points which sound reasonable -- if you've never tried using .30-06 brass for the .280.

The base-shoulder dimension is irrelevant: Since you form a "false shoulder" on the lower part of the neck the original pre-firing shoulder of the .30-06 case simply expands to match the chamber of the .280.

And if you'll measure the LOA of a reworked .30-06 case you'll find it to be similar the recommended "trim to" length for the .280. Just to verify this I went to the ammo drawer and measured five fired cases (originally RP .30-06 factory loads). They went 2.513". Long enough for you?

Additionally, once-fired .30-06 cases are everywhere and can be had virtually for pennies. Why would anyone want to spend $2 per case when you can get something that works as well, if not better, for a fraction of that price.

Point? The .30-06, for anyone who has actually tried using it, is an excellent choice.

quote:

Point? The .30-06, for anyone who has actually tried using it, is an excellent choice.

For anyone that has actually measured the case length before and again after know the case shortens .035"+, for anyone that has actually measure the case length before they started and compared the case length of the 30/06 with the 280 Remington case know they are starting out with a case that is .041" too short.

I am the fan of bullet hold, I formed 30/06 cases to 30 Gibbs, from start to finish the case shortened .050". Means nothing to most but the 30 Gibbs has a case neck length of .217, for me that is too short if the 300 Win Mag neck is considered short and is .265" long.

If the only case that is available is the 30/06 case then it is the only choice, that does not make the 30/06 case a good choice.

F. Guffey

Why not forming it from 7x64 Brenneke, it's available and cheaper then the aforementioned price??

How much cheaper and how much longer than the 30/06?

F. Guffey

How much cheaper and how much longer than the 30/06 case?

quote:

Originally posted by F. Guffey:
How much cheaper and how much longer than the 30/06 case?

They are 2.520 long. They won't be cheaper then 30-06, it's hard to beat the price of a 30-06 case, but they are much cheaper then the 30-06 straight wall cases. Hornady probably the cheapest of the brands out there in 7x64.

quote:

Originally posted by F. Guffey:

quote:

Point? The .30-06, for anyone who has actually tried using it, is an excellent choice.

For anyone that has actually measured the case length before and again after know the case shortens .035"+, for anyone that has actually measure the case length before they started and compared the case length of the 30/06 with the 280 Remington case know they are starting out with a case that is .041" too short.

I am the fan of bullet hold, I formed 30/06 cases to 30 Gibbs, from start to finish the case shortened .050". Means nothing to most but the 30 Gibbs has a case neck length of .217, for me that is too short if the 300 Win Mag neck is considered short and is .265" long.

If the only case that is available is the 30/06 case then it is the only choice, that does not make the 30/06 case a good choice. F. Guffey

As I said earlier: And if you'll measure the LOA of a reworked .30-06 case you'll find it to be similar the recommended "trim to" length for the .280. Just to verify this I went to the ammo drawer and measured five fired cases (originally RP .30-06 factory loads). They went 2.513". Long enough for you?

Maxiumum length for the .280 is 2.54". Cases which measure 2.513" after the first firing would seem to be almost perfect for a round with this maximum case length. As far as "bullet hold", a .280 case at full length has a neck of .340", while one which measures 2.513" has a neck of .313". Do you really think that .027" of neck length is going to make any difference in performance? Or do you strive to keep all of your brass at maximum length?

My Sako .280 shoots sub-MOA groups to the same point of impact regardless of whether the ammunition is freshly converted with a false shoulder or fireformed to a perfect chamber fit. Velocity is 3050 fps with a 150 grain spitzer in either configuration. Hard to see how I could make a "better" case from some other parent.

just use 270 cases,, Christ.

Christ, The 270 and 280 Remington is the same length, The length of the 270 from the shoulder to the case head is the same length as the 30/06 from the shoulder to the case head' meaning the difference in length between the 270 and 280 has to be made up from somewhere.

The additional length of the case body comes from part of the shoulder and part of the shoulder comes from the neck. And then we are talking about an Ackley Improved chamber. The diameter of the case increases when fired. When the case expands to fil the chamber the neck is pulled back when more of the shoulder becomes part of the case body.

And then there is the scary version, that happens when the neck does not get shorter and the shoulder moves forward and stays there when the case body locks to the chamber.

F. Guffey

all your cases get shorter when you fire form them.
going through a bunch of gyrations to get the case all the way to the end of the neck still nets you a short case.
the only way your getting around it is to start long and hydro-form.
then trim to full chamber length, and fire form your still gonna lose about .005 in length.

not gonna make a bit of difference unless your looking at loading for high velocity cast bullet loads, and even there length is only a portion of the issues your overcoming.

I agree but there is a scary version; reloaders claim the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder of the case contacts the shoulder of the chamber. They forget the case locks to the chamber when fired. If the case locks to the chamber when fired clearance is between the case head and bolt face. When fired with the case locked to the chamber the case has no choice but to stretch between the case head and case body.

Again: I have fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06 rifle. If there was such a thing as excessive head space I had .127" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber. We all should know the case will not stretch .127" between the case head and case body; meaning, the shoulder of the case never made it to the shoulder of the chamber.

Proof, the ejected cases were ejected with a hint of a neck. Had the cases been driven to the front of the chamber the case would have been ejected with a full neck and full shoulder.

And it would help if the poster would list the rifle used.

Reloaders have decided the neck gets thicker and or thinner when necked up and or down. The 30/06 case neck will get longer when necked down to 280, it will get shorter when necked up to 338/06 or 35 Whelan; my 30/06 cases shorten .030+ when necked up to 338/06. . When necking up and or down I use new and or once fired cases.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by F. Guffey:
The 30/06 case neck will get longer when necked down to 280

Really? Maybe that's why my .30-06 cases reformed to .280 end up being .06" longer than they started out and an excellent trim-to length for the .280 (which is what I've been trying to convince you of all along). Thanks for the verification.

quote:

Really? Maybe that's why my .30-06 cases reformed to .280 end up being .06" longer than they started out and an excellent trim-to length for the .280 (which is what I've been trying to convince you of all along). Thanks for the verification.

"Trying to convince you" Again reloaders claim the neck gets thinner and or thicker when necked up and of down. The part you choose to ignore is the difference in the length from the shoulder to the case head, the 30/06 is .051" shorter and the diameter of the 280 Remington is smaller in diameter than the 280 Ackley diameter.

You choose to ignore warning signs, if when forming my case necks do not get shorter and the shoulder of the case is driven forward to the shoulder of the chamber my cases have no choice but to stretch between the case head and case body.

Stretching between the case head and case body is a bad thing. It is believed excessive clearance between the shoulder of the case and chamber shoulder causes case head separation. I cut a chamber with .127" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber. After firing the cases I ejected cases with a hint of a neck. If when fired the case shoulder was shoved forward to the chamber shoulder the neck length would not have changed.

I form cases, I measure before and again after ever step in the forming process, again, I have cases that shorten from the end of the neck to the case head .050". I have cases that shorten .035" when neck up from 30/06 to 338/06.

F. Guffey

I'm afraid that I must yield to your superior intellect, F.

Persons of lesser intellect might assume that just because the false shoulder formed on a .30-06 case holds the case firmly against the bolt face that there would be no opportunity for stretching in the web area. What folly!

Similarly, intellectually challenged persons might think that with the case held firmly against the bolt face that the pressure of firing would expand the shoulder forward so that it would take the shape of the chamber. Pity them.

Further, persons of such limited intellectual capacity might think that just because a necked-down case measured longer than before it was re-formed and that upon firing it grew longer still -- well, they would simply be deluding themselves, regardless of what the caliper readings said.

Such persons might also reason that the animals that died from firing rounds from such mal-formed case were killed by the trauma inflicted by the bullet and not realize that such animals were more likely the victims of escaping gas from a ruptured case.

Intellectually inferior persons might be easily misled by photographic and statistical evidence such as this:


L to R: Once-fired .30-06 measuring 2.454"; reformed .280 from .30-06 with false shoulder on which to headspace measuring 2.506"; fired reformed .280 from .30-06 measuring 2.513".

I have news for the two of you on forming those cases. Let me use an analogy to start with. I shoot the 6.5 Swede. I form cases from 30-06. Why you ask? Because I'm after thicker necks then any of the available 6.5 Swede brass out there. As we know, or should know, the Swede case is fatter right ahead of the extractor groove then the 06. So when you fire it the prepared 06 brass it bulges on one side more then the other. One way to prevent that is to take a piece of 1/8 inch wide Scotch's Tape and long enough to wrap to fit the chamber snug thus centering the case so it expands evenly. You put this 1/8 inch strip right ahead of the extractor groove. Okay with that analogy or story, you fellows could leave light case lube on the body of the 06 (I like Imperial Wax) and fire the case and it won't obturate to chamber anywhere and expand fully and without a head separation. I recently done this with turning 5.56 brass into the 350 Legend. Worked like a dream! A friend was going through the laborious method of using a special expanding mandrel. Over working the brass too. Try this sometime and you may be amazed.

vzerone, thank you for sharing that and I want to thank you for not coming apart like Stonecreek did.

F. Guffey

In my disintegrated state I should have just posted the photo and the caption, which perhaps was overlooked due to the disjointed prose which preceded it. Note particularly the sequential numbers 2.454, 2.506, and 2.513, and the steps with which they are associated.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:


L to R: Once-fired .30-06 measuring 2.454"; reformed .280 from .30-06 with false shoulder on which to headspace measuring 2.506"; fired reformed .280 from .30-06 measuring 2.513".

Hey we're here to help one another. You guys are all okay.